Jump to content

seeking the lost

Advanced Member
  • Content Count

    292
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

174 Neutral

4 Followers

About seeking the lost

  • Rank
    Advanced Member

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. I like the common misunderstanding over the made up understanding. John does not say this is the culmination of the first resurrection. He would have to say that to include the groups that you do. The first resurrection is the first in time that counts as a resurrection in the revelation given to John. There is a danger in adding to the revelation as John warns us not to add to the text.
  2. Greetings WilliamL Do you have a source which describes what happened to those that were raised at the time of Jesus resurrection? The text seems to be silent as to what happened to them after they appeared to many. John who is very aware of this event writes in the book of Revelation of the two resurrections. His timeline is a little different than yours. Rev. 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. The first resurrection is of those who have stood faithful to death during the tribulation. This is a limited and specific resurrection for the purpose of reigning during the thousand years. The time of this resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the thousand years. The second resurrection includes everyone else that are not included in the first resurrection. This is at the end of the thousand years.
  3. I do not believe you are sticking to scripture. It seems you are sticking to some things that you have put together and assume to be the truth. Jesus teaches clearly that all will be judged by what they do. Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ If you do not do the will of the Father, which is works, you will hear I never knew you. Consider the words of James 2 : 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Your faith is judged as not saving faith if you do not do the will of the Father. We the sheep are judged on the basis of faith that produces works. Faith without works is dead. Ephesians 2, a well known passage teaches us that we are saved unto works. . 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Works were prepared for us to do. If you are one who hears the word only and does not do it you are in trouble. All judgement will be on individual basis. It seems that you have made an assumption about who makes it in to the Millennium. Do you have any base in scripture that would indicate goats in this kingdom? Footnotes:
  4. The only ones raised at the first resurrection are those stated for the purpose of reigning. This does not include all believers. Rev. 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Only the martyrs are raised at the first resurrection. It is not a good idea to add to the specifically stated people that are raised. There is a curse associated with adding to the text. The rest of the dead includes all people sheep and goats from the beginning of time to the end of days.
  5. I do not follow your timeline at all. It bares no resemblance to scripture. There are only two resurrections. The second resurrection is when believers are raised. Jesus said those who believe in Him will be raised up on the last day. The resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the last day. Books are opened believers judged by works. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice. Who do you suppose those sheep are? The rapture happens at the second resurrection. You do know that the rapture is linked to this resurrection.
  6. I would hold to the traditional view. The nations are brought before the throne and then the separation is made. Each nation will have sheep and each nation will have at least some goats. The sheep of a nation will not have to depart with the goats if they are of a goat nation. When the books are opened the names of those who will enter the kingdom has nothing to do with their nationality. These are individual names written in the Lambs book of life. It is by the book that the separation is made.
  7. I was thinking that the thousand years were a thousand years of peace. Do you think there are going to be rebellious nations during that time? The sheep that Jesus is speaking of are individuals that have done the will of the Father. The goats those who are not found in the book of life.
  8. I will certainly agree that those who are raised in the first resurrection are just but not all the just. The list is exclusive though you are trying to expand it. The blessing of being part of the first resurrection is that the second death will have no power over them. If everyone going into the thousand years is in this condition then satan has no success when he is loosed. He will have no one that can be deceived. By saying that all the just are raised at the first resurrection youdo nullify the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 25. The Sheep and the Goats 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” There is not a time before this that the books are opened. Not a time before this that judgement is made. This refers to the rest of the dead being raised at the end of the thousand years. Thew sheep and the goats are there together and are separated at this time. To say that the just are not raised at this time is to disagree with Jesus and say that He did not know what he was saying.
  9. The only problem with your theory is there is not a resurrection at that time. Did John have an oversight in relaying the revelation and you have helped him out? Does, "this is the first resurrection" mean anything? Does the prayer of Jesus mean anything when He prayed recorded in John 17, "13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them,for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified." Jesus prayed that we not be taken out of the world. You seem to be saying the opposite. The gathering is linked to the resurrection. The first is for the purpose of reigning on the earth at that time no one goes up. The only time remaining that the rapture could occur is at the last day at the end of the millennium. This is the day that Jesus will appear as judge of the whole earth.
  10. Your reasoning does not match the scripture as I read it. John who received and wrote the Revelation for us is very aware and more so than we of all that will be happening and yet in chapter 20 he describes the first resurrection and gives the limits and purpose and writes this is the first resurrection. He did not say this is the culmination of the first resurrection or just a partial list of those who will be raised. To add to the revelation as John received it and recorded for us is to add to the text. John left those out that you have included because they were not included in that which was revealed to him. Being faithful to the text is not taking away from the writings. Whatever you believe must not be superimposed upon the writings of John. Believers are raised up at the last day. The last day is the day at the end of the thousand years. After the last day when believers are raised according to the words of Jesus there will be no other day in the life of humans as we know it. That will be the beginning of the new. If you do not think Jesus was accurate when He said those who believe I will raise up at the last day, you should inform Him that He was wrong. John 6 :40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” This does not say some time before the tribulation it says last day.
  11. Yes there are only two resurrections. The first is at the end of the tribulation and only contains the ones who have loved not their lives unto death. These have lost their heads and now are raised to reign. This is stated in Rev. 20 :4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. This is not a general resurrection and it does not include all just as you may want it to. With the exception of those who are raised at the end of the tribulation every one else is raised on the last day. Jesus says this about those who believe in Him, John 6: 38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Also consider the words of Jesus concerning the judgement at that time, (Matthew 25:31-46) 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” The last day resurrection is the time that all this occurs as recorded in Rev 20: The Judgment of the Dead 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Those whose names are written in the book of life enter into the joy of the Lord. They are judged by their works. Those who are not in the book of life go to the lake of fire. This is when the sea gives up its dead. This is the second resurrection.
  12. Greetings Montana Marv You do understand the danger of adding to the text, don't you? There are only two resurrections. They are very well defined and not spread out over time. Those who participate in each are clearly defined.
  13. Greetings unworthyservant, You make some very good points and I would have to agree on most points. Jesus did teach very clearly about the things that are to come and instructed us to be ready, to watch, lest these things come upon us and we are unaware. The entire book of revelation is directly the teaching of Jesus and John is instructed to let the church know what is to come. Revelation 1 New International Version (NIV) 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. We do have a tendency to make His words unclear and muddy the water with our various thoughts.
  14. It is true that the Bible does not command us to fast but from the passage in Matthew the words of Jesus assume that we will fast. Matthew 5: 16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. When you fast is very assumptive. He models fasting and teaches the same. The benefits are stated as, " the Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." Isaiah 58 is a very good passage for fasting.
  15. Consider the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13: 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. According to this teaching the first ones taken out are the ones that were sown by the enemy. To say the righteous are taken out first is backwards.
×
×
  • Create New...