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seeking the lost

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About seeking the lost

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  1. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    Greetings Last Daze, I had not considered that. The text looks like the three sevens are consecutive; seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls. Thank you, I shall consider this.
  2. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    And that nature is a mystery 1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- However your argument is based that this mystery is to continue, when it's stated that its not. 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets God declared this to Paul as one of his servants the prophets. No I'm bringing the Last trumpet into the tribulation since our topic is 1 Corinthians 15, so your question on "last days" has no bearing on 1 Corinthians 15 unless you're insinuating that 1 Cor 15 takes place at the end of the millennium You have missed my point from the beginning. 1 Cor 15 takes place at the end of the millennium. This is the time that the dead are actually raised and the books are opened. This is the last day that Jesus talked about when He said in John 6: 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
  3. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    The subject that we are addressing is the question of whether the seventh is the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15 is the record of the last trumpet. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. The subject of 1 Corinthians 15 is the nature of the resurrection and the time of the resurrection at the last trumpet. The passage of 1 Thess. 4 also links a trumpet with the resurrection. 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so will God bring with Him those also who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. John 6 Jesus tells us of the last day as the time that those who believe in Him will be raised. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. It does seem that you are trying to bring the last day into the tribulation. That does not match the account of Rev. 21 that gives account of the last day resurrection. 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. At the seventh trumpet there are seven bowls of wrath to be poured out, and some of the worst part of the tribulation is yet to come. Rev 13: 6-8 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If the saints have been raise and those who are alive and remain have been caught up together with them, how then does this war take place? I really can not follow your time line.
  4. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    Greetings inchrist; As I read the account of the first resurrection I see some words that you might consider. The Thousand Years 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Notice that before the first resurrection Satan is bound. The order is Satan is bound then those who have been beheaded will be raised. The last trumpet is not just that it is the last in a series such as the seventh of a series of seven but the very last trumpet of all human existence as we know it. I acknowledge that there is not a trumpet listed for the first resurrection or the one to follow at the end of the thousand years. The time and the inclusion of the resurrections are fixed and non movable. Last is that there will be no more trumpets after not that there were six before.
  5. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    The words that you quote are accurate and true. The only problem that I have is the timing of these events and what comes after. The thousand year reign of Christ is characterized as a thousand years of peace. The bowls of wrath are poured out after the seventh trumpet. These are very sever and are not related to peace. If the tribulation ended at the seventh trumpet and there were a resurrection there then it could be that the seventh trumpet is the last in a series of seven trumpets. The first resurrection is at the beginning of the thousand years not somewhere in the last third of the tribulation. In order to bring the resurrection to the seventh trumpet as you suggest it will be necessary to move the time of this resurrection from the end of the tribulation to the midst of the tribulation. It will be necessary to borrow from the second resurrection in order to have a rapture that would follow your seventh trumpet. The alternative is to add another resurrection and renumber the two that are given to us. There will now be three resurrections at least. Do you think that is a good idea? You do understand that a proclamation is different than the actual event. Revelation 11:18 is a proclamation of what is to take place. John the Baptist proclaimed, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." (John 1:29) It will be three years before Jesus takes away the sins of the world in His work on the cross.
  6. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    Greetings inchrist, That is very interesting. What you are saying is that the seven bowls happen during the 1000 year reign. Is that correct?
  7. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    Greetings Diaste: Seventh is not equal to Last. Notice the spelling is different. Not only that the time is different and the events are different. If you are looking for an early out such as a pre wrath rapture know that this is contrary to sound doctrine. Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17: 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Jesus is praying for us to stay. The pre-wrath pre-tribulation are contrary to the teaching of Jesus. You may be aware of the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13: 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Notice that the tares are gathered and burned first. Never does Jesus advocate or teach that the wheat is gathered first. The last trumpet is at the end of the thousand years it is accompanied by all the events of 1 Cor. 15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where isthy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
  8. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    Greetings inchrist: The time has come and the progression is sure but the resurrection has not come and will not come until the end of the thousand years. I see the first resurrection identified as happening at the end of the tribulation and at the beginning of the thousand years (Rev 20:4-6). The implication is that there is not a resurrection before the first resurrection and therefore no actual judging. At the first resurrection there is not a judgement and only the tribulation martyrs are raised. They are raise to reign.
  9. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    You are asking great questions. I shall attempt to answer from what I see in the scripture. My approach to the book of Revelation and the study of end times is tempered by the warnings of Revelation 22: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Adding to or taking away from the text are very dangerous. The question about the last trumpet and the second resurrection is an excellent question. The text does not state that there is a sounding of a trumpet at that time. The focus that I keep is on the resurrection. John only mentions two that he qualifies as resurrections. The first resurrection is at the beginning of the thousand years. This resurrection is a closed set and only those mentioned are raised at that time. This leaves a great number of believers yet in the grave. As Paul says that we will not precede those who are asleep, I believe that he meant all who are asleep (dead) at that time. Adding a resurrection and a rapture at the seventh trumpet is adding to the text. The timing of the resurrections are very clear. Revelation 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. If these were not specified as to the time and who is included then we could speculate and develop theories maybe add 16 raptures and seventeen resurrections. The nature of the resurrection is bodies coming up out of the grave, the sea giving up its dead. This resurrection and the hope of it is why we place people in the grave with their feet pointing east and face up. A time when the body and soul are united again. Jesus spoke of this in John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Seven Angels With Seven Plagues. Revelation 15 15 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. 2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God 3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations.[a] 4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” 5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed. The seventh trumpet is sounded in chapter 11 of Revelation chapter 15 is the time of the last plagues. The bowls of the last plagues follow the trumpets. The last trumpet is connected with the resurrection and this last day resurrection is a good time for it. I do acknowledge that it is not specifically mentioned but I would not want to add it any other place in the text. Thank you for your question I will be glad to clarify any point.
  10. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    Thank you. This is a very detailed account but a question comes to mind. Paul reference to the last trumpet is followed by the dead in Christ rising first and then we who are alive and remain being caught up together with them in the air. Are you suggesting that this happens every year at the sounding? I would suggest that while your last trumpet of Yom Teruah is accurate that there remains one last trumpet after which there will be no other trumpet. At the sound of this last trumpet dead rise,etc.
  11. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    The focus of this forum is about the seventh trumpet Vs. the last trumpet. The events of the seventh trumpet do not match the events of the last trumpet. The timing of the seventh trumpet is before the seven bowls have been poured out and prior to the resurrection of the martyrs. The martyrs are raise to reign at the beginning of the thousand years. The last trumpet is connected with the last day resurrection. The time separating the seventh trumpet and the last trumpet is at least a thousand years. 1 Corinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. The time of this resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. The events that accompany the last trumpet on the last day are recorded in Revelation 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. You ask where is Christ right now. The answer is everywhere. Ephesians 1: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all. He fills all and is in all. I look forward to this rapture and the fulfillment of the Word of the Lord because it is our hope and comfort.
  12. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    You may be overlooking the is before is to come. Revelation 1: 4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. If He is not here he is a liar. His promise is that he would be with us to the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20 New International Version (NIV) 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
  13. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    We who are alive and remain will be changed. Here is the verse; 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. This compliments the 1 Corinthians 15 passage. Both are informing us that the dead in Christ will rise first at His coming. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h] 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. This resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. You may want to add a resurrection somewhere else but I have not found one. There are two resurrections written of by John, the first is of the tribulation martyrs, The second which is the rest of the dead who are raised at the end of the thousand years. Revelation 20: 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Those who are raised in the first resurrection are raised to reign as stated. They do not go up and then come down to reign. There is no big U-Turn in the sky. Everyone else is raised at the end of the thousand years. After the resurrection comes the rapture.
  14. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    1) Scripture says the Restrainer would be taken out of the way; you cannot get around that. Not to mention, unbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit. Additionally, if God wishes to not be present somewhere, He can do that; God is not a slave to His power, unless you think He's in the Lake of Fire with unbelievers. Taken out of the way does not mean taken from the earth. Do not neglect to understand Job 34:14,15 14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit[a] and breath, 15 all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust. Now that you mention it yes He is in the Lake of Fire. Psalm 139:7-9 King James Version (KJV) 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; I have never said that the rapture happens at the end of the tribulation. The only time that the rapture can happen is at the end of the thousand years. That is the time of the resurrection. That is the time that the sea gives up its dead and the books are opened. That is the time of the rapture. The millennium is populated by those who are raised in the first resurrection and those who have survived the tribulation. Revelation 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The days of the tribulation are shortened for the sake of the elect. 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Enjoy the dance but do not step on toes that are of another partner.
  15. Last Trump vs The Seventh

    You are quoting I Corinthians 15 as your proof text. Look at the context. 1 Corinthians 15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. This resurrection and the "shall all be changed" is at the end of the thousand years. That resurrection is not movable to suit you doctrine.
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