Jump to content

seeking the lost

Advanced Member
  • Posts

    494
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by seeking the lost

  1. You have such an interesting take on scripture. Two questions for you. What does your timeline and what is your hope?
  2. The text is the final word not personal opinions. Jesus will come as the conquering king in the days of vindication. This is when the tares are taken out and the floor is thougally purged. Everyone who does not have the mark of God will be cast into the winepress of the wrath of God. The wheat continues to grow for a thousand years. At the end of the thousand years, 2 Peter comes into play. 2 Peter 3:10-13KJV 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. The purpose of the rapture is to take those who are alive and remain faithful to the new heavens and the new earth. This is the time that the rest of the dead are raised. All are raised at this time and the sheep and goats are separated.
  3. Do you realize that by saying there is no literal Thousand-year reign on earth you may be taking away from the writings of this book? The nature of the Millenium is often perverted but there is a record of this on the earth. The first resurrection that you have pointed out is limited to those that have been beheaded. They do not go up and there is not a resurrection of all the righteous at this point. This being said it must also be noted that the rapture has not happened yet. The martyrs reign with Jesus on the earth for a thousand years. They are joined by the elect for whom the days were shortened. These are natural people that marry and have children. Satan is bound during this time. If there were a rapture before this time and all are changed then the final test is meaningless. If everyone on earth has participated in the first resurrection and have become like the angels then the testing is meaningless. Those that are part of the first resurrection will not be subject to the second death. The text indicates there is a huge number that will be affected by the great deception. The rest of the dead resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the time that the dead in Christ are raised and the time of the rapture.
  4. I need a clarification of the text. You have said that the first resurrection is of the just. Let us take a closer look at the text. Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first resurrection is clearly defined. Three things define this resurrection, content, time, and purpose. The content, "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;". This is a closed set. No one that is not listed is raised at this time. The time is right before the millennium and the purpose is to reign with Christ. "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Those that are raised in the first resurrection do not go up in the air. They are raised to reign on the earth. This way they do not have to make a big U-turn. The next resurrection content is clearly identified by content and time. Rev. 20: 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. The rest of the dead includes everyone not included in the first resurrection.
  5. I do believe that Jesus must have got it wrong. He said, "38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6) There are many people raised from the dead from the beginning of time until now. Jesus told us to heal the sick, cast out devils, and raise the dead. Most of these are raised to life and then die again. These cases do not include an ascension or a rapture. Everyone will support views with some text or reasoning. The truth can only be known by accepting the text as written. Be careful of seeing what you want to see.
  6. I think John and Jesus were aware of when resurrections occur. They are aware of the two witnesses but yet the record is clear the first resurrection takes place at the beginning of the Millenium. You may disagree with my understanding but I am only relating the text as written. The dead in Christ rise on the last day which coincides with the rest of the dead resurrection. Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. These two resurrections are unalterable resurrections. They should not be moved in time or content.
  7. There is a real-life history of China. American missionaries taught the pre-tribulation rapture. The communist took over with great brutality. Many Christians were tortured and many were killed. They were told and led to believe that God would not let such things happen. Many fell away because of false expectations. Watch out if your hope is in an escape from trouble.
  8. The first resurrection is defined by time, content, and purpose. The time is at the beginning of the thousand years. The content is not all righteous but limited to those described in the text of Rev. 20. The purpose is to reign with Christ upon the earth. (They do not go up as if they missed the earth and had to come back down) Rev.20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Just two resurrections. First of those that were beheaded (I do not want to add to that description, only those listed). The second resurrection is The rest of the dead. This includes righteous and unrighteous from Adam To the end of the Millenium. Then they are separated sheep on the right and goats on the left. Matt. 25: 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
  9. I just have a simple view that is formed with fear of the Lord. I take seriously the warning not to add to The book. I do find it interesting that you find so many resurrections and raptures. Do all of these resurrections have raptures? The words of Jesus have some influence on my understanding. John 6: 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The last day fits the resurrection listed as the rest of the dead. I find this definition in 2 Peter 3: 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Tell me this is not the last day. Jesus taught that the tares are taken out first. The unrighteous are wiped out first. Malichi 4: 1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. It's not that i don't believe in a pretribulation rapture I just do not believe in a pre-resurrection rapture.
  10. It could be that it just means first. Speculation leads to error. To go beyond the text may be considered as adding to the writings of this book. This is not a recreational game. Because of this warning, it is best to stay as close to the text as possible. Rev. 22: Nothing May Be Added 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
  11. Rev. 20: 4,5, And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.…
  12. Do you understand the scripture in Rev 20 that identifies the first resurrection? Do you know what the word first means? Rev 20: 4,5 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.… How many resurrections come before the first resurrection?
  13. The simple logic does not work. The first resurrection is not until the end of the tribulation. That resurrection is clearly labeled as the first resurrection. Doing the math, how many resurrections come before the first resurrection?
  14. Paul taught the resurrection followed by the rapture. 1 Thes. 4: 15-17, The Return of the Lord …15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.… It does not matter how much revelation you have if you depart from the text which clearly says we will not proceed them, you may be adulterating scripture.
  15. You have failed to show the text that teaches that there is a resurrection at Rev. 4. You cannot show one because there is not one. Without a resurrection, there can not be a rapture. This is immutable.
  16. That proclamation does not seem to be a message to the lost. The message is "Fear God and give Him Glory" I just need to see the resurrection anywhere in the scripture that will support a rapture. The only text that I know that fits is at the end of the thousand years. The rest of the dead are raised at that time. Jesus taught that those who are believers will be raised on the last day (John 6). That is the last day. (2 Pet. 3: 10) 0
  17. How is anyone saved without someone to share with them? Romans 10: 14,15 New International Version How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Much of the teaching of the pretribulation rapture has come from those who have had visions and special revelations. Whatever you have seen must not add to the text or take away from it.
  18. If we had some bacon we could have bacon and eggs if we had some eggs. Without a resurrection there can not be a rapture. Please show the text that says there is a resurrection before the tribuation. Is ther a text or just your reasoning? It seems that you have neither bacon or eggs.
  19. This is way too much manipulation for me to understand. A straight read would be on the day of vindication Jesus wipes out the tares. The tribulation is shortened for the sake of the elect. The millennium begins with the elect that have survived the tribulation. The elect are joined by the martyrs that are raised to reign. Isaiah 63: God's Judgment on the Nations 1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. 2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? 3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth. Malachi 4: The Day of the LORD (Zephaniah 1:7–18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1–11; 2 Peter 3:8–13) 1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall. 3Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts. The wicked are taken away the righteous shine in the kingdom. They tread on the ashes of the wicked.
  20. You seem to find things that cannot be there. The text of Rev 20 must be handled with integrity. Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. How many resurrections come before the first resurrection? The first resurrection is clearly at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the thousand years. Those of the first resurrection are not going up, they are being raised to reign on the earth. The content of this resurrection is specified and must not be added to. The last day resurrection is described as the rest of the dead. This is when the dead in Christ that do not fit the category of the first resurrection are raised. Let the text stand.
  21. There are such things as doctrines of demons and seducing spirits. They play on the desires of the flesh and use a perverted word. Their intent is to drive you to the curse. Eve was deceived in this way. There is a clear warning about adding to this book. Seducing spirits lead you to believe that resurrections and raptures are in a time where they cannot be. Chapter 6 is after what you believe is a rapture and a resurrection. Rev. 6: The Fifth Seal: Martyrs 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. These ask a question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" The answer indicates a cry for that which has not yet happened. The answer is revealing, "and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." The addition of a rapture or explaining these words away of the text is taking away from this book. The time and content of each resurrection are clearly defined in and by the WORD of GOD. These are not subject to redefinition or moving the time of each. This redefining or moving of the time is a perversion of the text.
  22. You do know that the only one going up in chapter 4 is John. He is only going up in the spirit and remained upon the earth. The message he received was of the things that are to come. The first resurrection is clearly stated. The time and those included in the first resurrection are clearly defined. The time is at the beginning of the thousand years. Look carefully at those who are included: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev. 20: 4) If you add a resurrection before the stated resurrection identified as the first resurrection that is not seeing what is there. That is making stuff up. Because the time of the rest of the dead being raised is specific the rapture can only happen at that time. That is at the end of the thousand years. Rev. 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. There are only two resurrections clearly identified with time and content. Going beyond the text is adding to the text.
  23. Yes, there are two resurrections. They are clearly described in the twentieth chapter of Revelation. The first is only of those who were killed during the tribulation. The second, last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. That day is the last day. This day is described in 2 Peter 3: 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. The last day is the day after which there are no other days. Peter describes that day. That is the day of resurrection for the ones who believe. The unrighteous are also raised on that day. Revelation 20 identifies the participants of the last day as the rest of the dead. Matthew 25 gives a very clear understanding of the judgment of that day. The righteous and the unrighteous stand for judgment. At that time the sheep and the goats are separated. Both sheep and goats are raised on the last day at the end of the thousand years. Matt. 25: 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
×
×
  • Create New...