CompleteAgape

Takes a lot more courage to face someone willing to harm or kill you when you don't have a weapon and are willing to die; than being willing to protect your own life (or someone else's life) by killing them. Your statement is logically fallacious.

Sorry, Luke 22 is in no way proof for Christians to harm another, no scripture says that. Your are reading that into the text. No where has God given us the right to physically defend ourselves or anyone else for that matter. In fact He speaks very clearly regarding this very matter in countless places which absolutely contradicts physically harming anyone. By the way I have a gun, it is irrelevant to the validity or invalidity to this argument, but I state it none the less. I use it for hunting animals. I also have numerous knives which can be used for many things other than harming someone. Possessing weapons is not the issue of what may or may not be contrary to God (Jesus telling disciples to purchase swords); what ultimately matters is what do we do with a weapon, how do we treat another creature of God whose value is just as equal as anyone else's. In God's eyes we were all His enemy yet he died for us, (didn't kill us). We don't have the authority to judge who should be killed. God is the one who will enact revenge.

Within the principles' of Jesus there is never a justification for harming another person. No example of Jesus ever doing it. No example of Jesus telling anyone to harm someone else. Regarding the scriptures of Jesus telling disciples to obtain swords and of Jesus in the temple with a whip: it is a fallacious argument to draw the conclusion that violence is authorized or that Jesus partook in it against people. Scripture simply does not say this. We have to be careful not to read something into these scriptures. They are actually silent regarding harming a person. Also numerous scriptures speak plainly and clearly regarding how Jesus expects us to treat everyone, this includes evil people. Jesus' foundational theme was absolute love.

1 Corinthians 13:1-8 God expects us to sacrifice our life for Him. He tells us to consider others as more important than ourselves. God expects us to defend anyone with our own life, not take someone's life. As Christians we follow Jesus' example. Some of the qualities of love that would contradict someone physically harming another: Is kind, Does not seek its own, Is not provoked, Does not take account of wrongs suffered. There are numerous scriptures which speak directly to the principles' that Jesus gave us regarding how we treat everyone, how we are not to repay evil with evil, how we are not to retaliate. No where do the principles' of Jesus condone nor instruct His followers to physically harm someone just because they are being evil towards someone else. We find no except as to how we treat our enemies based upon who they are being evil to. A side point to think about, God did not protect the disciples when they went about spreading the Gospel. All but John were prematurely killed. We have early accounts of Christians being murdered for their beliefs (even today); yet God does not defend all of them from the evil attackers.

We can't make an assumption that providing for our families means using judgement (which we're not authorized to do) to determine whose life is worth killing and whose is not; which is what one would be doing if they deliberately killed someone. God is the one to exact vengeance, not His people. This scripture can not contradict other scripture and there are numerous scriptures which speak directly to Christians taking revenge on someone and how we treat our enemies. This verse does not state that we are to kill for our families; yet many verses state we are not to kill anyone. Jesus was very clear in the principles that He gave us.

Jesus taught us to deny self. We are to live according to the Spirit not the flesh. Yes, it is natural to want to retaliate; yet that is not at all what Jesus taught. We are to sacrifice our self for anyone and everyone. God no where guarantees our safety nor calls us to defend ourselves. He calls us to take up our cross and follow Jesus. He calls us to be a living sacrifice. God did not protect the disciples as there were going about spreading the gospel. They were beaten, imprisoned and killed; yet God did not protect them. "I think it's interesting that believers will talk a big talk but when reality hits they do something completely opposite. I can just imagine God saying something like this to someone who just stood there and didn't defend themselves when they could have, "Hey didn't I create you with a brain? Why in the world didn't you use it!". ? God did speak to this but He did not say "Hey didn't I create you with a brain?" Please study the principles of Jesus. 1 Corinthians 6:7 Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? "Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?" Romans 12:14-21 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. 1 Peter 4:12-19 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. 2 Corinthians 10:1-6 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul,who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. 1 Peter 3:14-18 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame. For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit Matthew 10 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so [r]be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; 18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. 20 For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. Philippians 2:1-8 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any [a]affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete [b]by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing [c]from [d]selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross.

You may be right regarding Spiritual sword; however I don't think so. Why would Jesus say sell material things and "buy" swords? How does one buy a spiritual sword? Doesn't make sense. I realize "The Word" which is Jesus is our spiritual sword, yet that "Word" had not been completed because Jesus had not died and rose from death. The word of God at that time was what we know as the OT. The disciples knew the OT and why would Jesus, about to be killed and start a New Covenant doing away with the Old Covenant, want his followers to have something that was about to be done away with. Also they needed more than 2 because the disciples went separate ways spreading the gospel thereby needing many more than 2. Jesus in the same breath referenced Isaiah 53:12 as the prophesy that needed to be fulfilled which was with the disciples bearing arms against the authorities becoming Roman "transgressors". The reference is regarding the secular authority seeing them as transgressors, this needed to be done with physical swords. What would be the spiritual swords and why were there be 2 as said by the disciple? You are absolutely correct that there are no examples of the disciples resisting the authority. They believed being beaten, put in prison, killed was the result of them teaching this "new way" of life. And they believed it showed God's love by not retaliating. This is how I understand the argument that Jesus said to buy swords, it was not to use against people and in fact He never said to harm anyone, in fact He rebuked Peter when Peter used the sword. The purpose is to make Jesus among transgressors which could solidify His arrest and give more "so called evidence" against Him as far as the Romans were concerned.

I don't see where Jesus showed us to be responsible for administering justice. In fact God said He would take care of justice and we are not to make the judgement as to who deserves certain justice or not, nor are we to administer any justice. We love unconditionally. This is very clear, I'm sorry but conditional violence by Christians is flawed interpretation of scripture and how we are to live. It took me much studying (months) to come to this understanding which I reluctantly accepted because I have an innate desire to shell out justice to evil people myself; yet this is not what God expects of His people.

I believe Jesus answered that in the same scripture. The OT prophecy was to be fulfilled and that was Jesus was to be among transgressors and having weapons made the disciples enemies of the state, having a means of retaliation.

How does one's job change how God expects us to live and treat others? As Christians our life following the principles of Jesus should be the same for everyone and the same regardless of what situation we find ourselves in. If the government contradicts God's expectations of His people then does not God's will have priority over the government; therefore a Christian should put God before the government? Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world, as Christians that is our Kingdom, not the kingdom (government) of this world.

I didn't say the Old Law was dead or even to be ignored. You want to pick and choose what laws you are to follow. Therefore; if your child or a child is disobedient then it is justified by the law that they are killed. I doubt you believe that you or any Christian should follow this command. Again, you can not pick and choose what laws you are to follow. We follow Christ, very simple. We know what sin is through Jesus, NOT the Old Law. If you are to follow the Old Law and make it applicable to how you live today as a Christian then you must follow ALL of it. Read Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy and according to your argument to be consistent you must follow those commands. I agree with 2 Timothy 3:16 however the Old Law and prophets do not dictate how God's people are to live today. This is one of the reasons He came to earth as a man, Jesus, to show us through His words and actions how we are to live.

As Christians the directions and examples of how God's people in the Old Testament do not apply to us. If one is to follow the laws of the OT then one must follow all, not pick which ones you like. Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy have many rites and commands that you should follow. This does not make you a Christian but a Jew. God has spoken to His people today not through Moses or the prophets; He has spoken to His people on how to live through Jesus. The OT is not applicable for Christians on how to live our lives. It is applicable for knowledge, understanding, and how Jesus came about.

Revelation is not referring how we as Christians are to live. God is clear through Jesus that He expects His people to love unconditionally and not retaliate, react with evil against evil. Jesus explains why He told His disciples to purchase swords in the same scriptures. This was to fulfill the prophecy that Jesus be among transgressors which He was as some of His disciples, apparently 2, had swords which made them enemies of the Romans. This was not to fight otherwise why would 2 be enough to fight with? Jesus punctuates His principle of nonviolence by rebuking Peter and healing the man's ear that he harmed with a sword.