Quasar93

What John saw in Rev.4 was the throne of God together with those of the 24 Elders, already there. Quasar92

For the best understanding of the prophetic Scriptures, it is best to do so literally. Not by attempting to do so by allegorical or spiritualization of it. You have listed three groups in your above post. I can only provide you answers for the 24 Elders and the 4 beasts, because you have not sufficiently identified who you are referring to by "living ones." Provide the Scriptures from where you are drawing it from and I'll do my best to answer it for you; Who are the twenty four Elders around the throne of God in Rev.4:4 ? The twenty four Elders around the throne of God, represent the twenty four courses of the Levitical priesthood, with one priest for each course seated on each of the twenty four thrones. As recorded in 1 Chr.24:7-18. In Jer.33:17-18: "For this is what the Lord says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, NOR WILL THE PRIESTS, who are Levites ever fail to have before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.'" See also 2 Sam.7 for God's promise to David. There are many who attempt to identify them as the twelve apostles and twelve of the old testament saints, but there is nothing in the Bible to support this theory or any of the others, except the one above. The four great beasts of Daniel 7 - In Daniel's chapter 7 dream we find: Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. Daniel 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings...Babylon Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear...Medo Persia Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard...Greece Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly...Rome In the verse below we learn that in the figurative language of a vision or dream in prophecy, a "beast" is a kingdom or empire. With the exception of the beast out of the sea and the beast put of the earth in Rev.13, who are the Antichrist and the False Prophet. Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. BEAST = KINGDOM There is a broad agreement among Jewish and Christian scholars that the kingdoms represented by Daniel's lion, bear and leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, followed by the fourth "terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire. This conclusion is reached within the traditional continuous-historic context of prophecy. This is simply the view that bible prophecy is fulfilled steadily, as the era about which it is written gradually unfolds. This is the context in which virtually all Christians and Jews understand Old Testament prophecy. Quasar93

The "seven" churches recorded in Rev.2 and 3, are one and the same body of Christ, in the various stages of the entire church age. The ELECT of Mt.24:31 are: Those the angels will gather from the four winds, is Israel. Those they will gather from one end of heaven to the other, is the church Jesus will rapture seven years before, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. The church is seen in heaven, symbolically as John, before the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. They are see later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8. Jesus will then return to earth WITH His Church, "...riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, whit and clean. in His armies from heaven," in verse 14. Hope that helps. Quasar93

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/scenic-wonders-of-the-world-for-everyone-with-wand-t4200023.html Quasar93

Have you ever stopped to think what the Scriptures tell us where believers go after the death of our bodies? Where are we going when our body dies? "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, IMO, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the tribulation. He will return for all of us who belong to Him, still alive here on earth, at His appearing, according to Jn.14:2-4 and 1 Thes.4:14-18. All those who have died in Him, go to be with Him in heaven, immediately after their physical death, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8. Beginning with Pentecost, they are seen returning with Him from heaven, in 1 Thes.4:14, when He returns for all of us who belong to Him, left here on earth alive at His appearing in the clouds of the sky. Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28, He returns to take us with Him, back to our Father in heaven. As recorded in 1 Thes.4:17, when we will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them [all those who previously died in Him] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. "In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am." Vs.3."And you know the way to where I am going." Jn.14:2-4. And where did Jesus tell them He was going? "You heards me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me , you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." Vs 28. Confirmed in Jn.16:10, 17 and 28. The important fact in the above to keep in mind is, that it cannot possibly take place when Jesus returns in His Second Coming to the earth. Because, in the above passage, He returns for all those who belong to Him, bringing with Him all those who had fallen asleep [Died] in Him from heaven, AND RETURNS WITH THEM ALL TO OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN! The above passage is reinforced by Paul, in 1 Thes.4:14-18, alluding to, "will be CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED together with them [The dead in Christ] to meet the Lord in the clouds of the air, in vs 17." Vs 14 refers to God bringing with Jesus, all those who previously died in Him, and are with Him in the clouds of the air, when all of us who belong to Christ, left here on the earth alive at His appearing, meet Him, together with them, in the clouds of the air. Where in vs 15, Paul reveals the entire event is ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD, which is directly from Jn.14:2-4 and 28. The only place in the Scriptures Jesus taught the believers in Him then, what we refer to today as the rapture of the Church. How does the above teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Paul and John, differ from His Second Coming to the earth? Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, with His entire Church, [After the marriage to His Bride, the Church, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-9] [as well as in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14], in His armies from heaven, as well as His angels, recorded in Mt.24:30-31. He will return to fight the battle of Armageddon first, to defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them, in Rev.19:11-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky in His second coming, as He will in the rapture, nor does He return to heaven with them, as He will at the rapture of the Church! But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.12:10 and Zech.14. Then Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, then to administer the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6, bringing peace to the entire earth. He will then establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth. NOTICE that Jesus DOES NOT return to heaven at any time after He sets foot on the Mount of Olives [Zech.14:5] in His Second Coming, until God has created the new heaven and earth, in Rev.21:1, as seen in verses 22-23.Jesus testimony about His Second Coming to the earth, in Mt.24:30-31:"At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. [At the end of the seven years of tribulation]. [Confirming Zech.12:10-13] Israel in particular, because they will then recognize Jesus as their Messiah FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME. While the rest of the world will finally realize Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God. You will not see any mourning when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky at the rapture of the Church, when He calls up all those who belong to Him, left here on the earth alive, before the seven year tribulation begins. But rather, great rejoicing will take place! They will see the Son of Man coming on the couds of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His ELECT [Jesus is addressing Israel, not the Church which did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Vs 30-31. The angels will gather His ELECT, in Mt.24:31, from the four winds [ISRAEL], from one end of the heavens to the other [THE RAPTURED CHURCH], in His second coming,- confirming Ez.34:11-16, meaning, the Jewish people from all over the entire world. Take notice: No one meets the Lord in the clouds of the sky, here. Nor does does He return from the clouds of the sky with us, to our Father in heaven, as the Scriptures reveal He will in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, at the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Nor does Jesus remain in the clouds of the sky, but will take us to our Father in heaven. Jesus will return in His second coming, to the earth, where He will remain to establish His 1,000 year kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. Jesus Olivet Discourse, recorded in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21, pertains to His second coming to the earth and has nothing whatever to do with the Church. Because the ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 as well as in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist until the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9. It was in response to the questions His disciples had asked Him in Mt.24:3, "...when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Which He clearly revealed to them, completely through the seven year tribulation to the signs of His coming and of His actual arrival, in Mt.24:30-31 on the Mount of Olives, according to Zech.14:5. The "second coming" is found in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14; where you find Jesus returning with all His angels in Mt.24:30-31 and His entire Church following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14 [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, as found in Rev.19:8, NIV], in His armies from heaven. Which makes it quite impossible for any such thing as a post-trib rapture.The entire text by Jesus, from Mt.24:4-31 is an amplification of Dan.9:27, where God has decreed Israel to go through the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation. Which the Church will not go through, according to 2 Thes.2:3 and 7. The antichrist is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the very same person found in Dan.7:23-27; 8:9-12 and in 9:27, confirmed by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, that immediately follow the pre-trib rapture of the Church, recorded in 2 Thes.2:3. There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, as He promised us, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-4]. From another source: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-Di ... heRapt.pdf Quasar93

Will David reign with Jesus in the Millennial Kingdom? After the Tribulation and the Battle of Armageddon, Jesus will establish His 1,000-year Kingdom on earth. In Jeremiah 30, God promises Israel that the yoke of foreign oppression would be cast off forever, and “instead, they will serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them” (verse 9). Speaking of the same time, God says through the prophet Ezekiel, “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees” (Ezekiel 37:24). From the prophecies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, some have concluded that King David will be resurrected during the Millennium and installed as co-regent over Israel, ruling the Kingdom with Jesus Christ. Jeremiah’s and Ezekiel’s prophecies should be understood this way: the Jews would one day return to their own country, their yoke of slavery would be removed, their fellowship with God would be restored, and God would provide them with a King of His own choosing. This King would, in some way, be like King David of old. These passages can refer to none other than the long-awaited Messiah, the “Servant of the Lord” (cf. Isaiah 42:1). The Jews sometimes referred to the Messiah as “David” because it was known the Messiah would come from David’s lineage. The New Testament often refers to Jesus as the “Son of David” (Matthew 15:22; Mark 10:47). There are other reasons, besides being the Son of David, that the Messiah is referred to as “David.” King David in the Old Testament was a man after God’s own heart (Acts 13:22), he was an unlikely king of God’s own choosing, and the Spirit of God was upon Him (1 Samuel 16:12–13). David, then, is a type of Christ (a type is a person who foreshadows someone else). Another example of this kind of typology is Elijah, whose ministry foreshadowed that of John the Baptist to the extent that Malachi called John “Elijah” (Malachi 4:5; cf. Luke 1:17; Mark 9:11–13). David will be resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium, along with all the other Old Testament saints. And David will be one of those who reign with Jesus in the Kingdom (Daniel 7:27). However, all believers will rule the nations (Revelation 2:26–27; 20:4) and judge the world (1 Corinthians 6:2). The apostle Peter calls Christians “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9). In Revelation 3:21, Jesus says about the believer who conquers, “I will grant him to sit with me on my throne.” In some sense, then, Christians will share authority with Christ (cf. Ephesians 2:6). There is some biblical evidence, as in the Parable of the Ten Minas (Luke 19:11–27), that individuals will be given more or less authority in the Kingdom according to how they handle the responsibilities God has given them in this age (Luke 19:17). Jesus is the King of kings (Revelation 19:16). Humanly speaking, Jesus is from the Davidic dynasty; but in power, in glory, in righteousness, and in every other way, He is rightly called the Greater David. “The government will be on his shoulders” (Isaiah 9:6). The Old and New Testaments reveal that the future King during the Millennium and all eternity is Jesus Christ and Him alone (Jeremiah 23:5; Isaiah 9:7; 33:22; Revelation 17:14; 1 Timothy 6:15). Recommended Resource: Thy Kingdom Come by J. Dwight Pentecost Source: gotquestions.org Quasar93

The above attempt to discredit the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke John and Paul, clearly delineated in my OP and the following post, not only calls us all liars, But is the epitome of Scriptural interpretive failure.Nothing you have presented begins to negate the Biblical teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, except to reveal your opinionated, vitriolic diatribe against me personally. Review the following article pertaining to the ancient Jewish betrothal customs that reveal why the Church will be in heaven for seven years, for our marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, that will take place in heaven, as recorded in Rev.10:8-8. Your denial of the Church returning with Jesus in His second coming to the earth, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, [the righteous acts of the saints, recorded in verse 8], white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14, is reinforced in Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14 as well, is more of your failure in understanding eschatology. FYI, I believed/received Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior around a Church campfire, confessing my sins , in August of 1937, and received the Holy Spirit immediately, who has dwelled within me ever since, and taught me all the Scriptural material I post to this day. You are the one in sore need for repentance! And where, may I ask, did you do soAre there parallels between Jewish wedding traditions and our relationship to Christ? Are there parallels between Jewish wedding traditions and our relationship to Christ? Jewish wedding traditions at the time of Christ are a fascinating study topic, and certain parallels can be seen between those customs and Christian theology. In the Bible, the Church is sometimes metaphorically understood to be Jesus’ Bride (Revelation 21:2, 9–10; 19:7; 22:17). The Mishnah Kiddushin (the section of the Talmud dealing with “dedication” or betrothal) specifies that a bride is acquired by a groom in one of three ways; one involves the groom leaving his father’s home and traveling to the bride’s home to “purchase” her for a price. The groom gives a token or a dowry, and its value must be known to the bride. In all cases, the wife can only be acquired with her consent. The marriage contract, or ketubah, is then established, and from that moment on the bride is sanctified, or set apart, exclusively for her bridegroom. It is customary for the groom and bride to drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction has been said. This prenuptial process can be seen as symbolic of Christ’s work on our behalf. Jesus left the home of His Father (heaven) and traveled to the home of His prospective Bride (earth) to purchase her for a price; that is, His own blood (1 Corinthians 7:23). His Bride has joyously consented to the match. He has given her a priceless token, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:6–16). With the establishing of the ketubah(the New Covenant), Jesus’ Bride was sanctified for Him (1 Corinthians 6:11). The communion wine is symbolic of the covenant by which Christ obtained His Bride. The Shulkhan Arukh, an exhaustive presentation of the details of Jewish law, elaborates regarding the two stages of marriage: the betrothal (kiddushin, meaning “sanctified”) and the consummation of the marriage (nisuin, translated “elevation”). Kiddushin is not engagement as we understand it. It is a binding agreement in which the woman is legally considered the wife of the man. It was routine in Jesus’ day for kiddushin and nisuin to be separated by as much as a year. During that time the bridegroom would construct the marital home. This, too, can be viewed as a metaphor for spiritual truth. After sealing the covenant with the Church, Jesus ascended to His Father’s home to prepare a dwelling place. Just prior to His death, Jesus told His disciples, “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am” (John 14:2–3). According to Jewish marriage law, when the time came for nisuin, the groom would return for his bride, accompanied by male escorts. The exact time of his arrival was not usually known in advance (see Matthew 25:1–15). The groom’s arrival was announced with a shout. The Church’s Bridegroom has been separated from His Bride now for nearly 2,000 years, and one day He will come for her and snatch her from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). We don’t know when exactly this will happen; we must be ready and remain faithful (Mark 13:33). Jesus will be accompanied by an angelic escort, preceded by a shout, when He returns for the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:16). After being whisked from her home, the Jewish bride remained hidden at the groom’s father’s house for seven days. Similarly, the Church will remain “hidden” for a period of seven years, during the prophesied Tribulation period. After the seven days, the Jewish bride left the bridal chamber unveiled; likewise, after seven years the Church will return to earth with Christ, in full view of all (Colossians 3:4). Viewed as an analogy, Jewish wedding customs have great significance for both believers and unbelievers. If you are a believer, you must remember your devotion to your Bridegroom so as not to commit spiritual adultery against Him (see James 4:4). The apostle Paul says to the Church, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.” He then warns us not to allow our minds to be “led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:2–3). If you are an unbeliever, now is the time to reevaluate your belief system in light of Jesus’ words and the prophecies of Revelation. Don’t be left behind in the Rapture. Jesus offers eternal life to all who repent and believe. Recommended Resource: Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith by Marvin Wilson Source: gotquestions.org Quasar93

What is replacement theology (supersessionism) and the Israel of God ? Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism), and the God of Israel, essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism) . Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years? The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion. With reference to the Israel of God, referred to by Paul, in Gal.6:16; which he meant, all those Israelites who had believed in Christ, out of the nation as a whole, who had rejected Him as their Messiah. Who then had become members of the one body of Christ, His Church, 1 Cor.12:12-13. As is the very same situation today, when a Jewish person who is an Israeli, receives Christ as Lord, he becomes a member of the one body of Christ, His Church. Which can be better understood when pointing out that all believers are then grafted into the root, in Rom.11:17, or the vine, in Jn.15:5 where Jesus states refers to Him, and we are the branches. Nowhere is there found any support for believers to be grafted into Israel. The best way to observe all people of God, is to see us as His elect. Whether believers who were or are now, Israelis, Jews or Gentiles out of every nation on the earth. After the rapture, God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, in His second coming, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him, in Zech.12:10. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ, in His armies from heaven (Rev.19:14) and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Rev.20:4, 6). Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says six times that Christ's kingdom will last 1000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen, in Zech.12:10, fulfilling Romans 11:25-26. Quasar93

The Errors of Replacement Theology Perhaps you have heard of the term Replacement Theology. However, if you look it up in a dictionary of Church history, you will not find it listed as a systematic study. Rather, it is a doctrinal teaching that originated in the early Church. It became the fertile soil from which Christian anti-Semitism grew and has infected the Church for nearly 1,900 years. What Is Replacement Theology?Replacement Theology was introduced to the Church shortly after Gentile leadership took over from Jewish leadership. What are its premises? 1. Israel (the Jewish people and the land) has been replaced by the Christian Church in the purposes of God, or, more precisely, the Church is the historic continuation of Israel to the exclusion of the former. 2. The Jewish people are now no longer a "chosen people." In fact, they are no different from any other group, such as the English, Spanish, or Africans. 3. Apart from repentance, the new birth, and incorporation into the Church, the Jewish people have no future, no hope, and no calling in the plan of God. The same is true for every other nation and group. 4.. Since Pentecost of Acts 2, the term "Israel," as found in the Bible, now refers to the Church. 5. The promises, covenants and blessings ascribed to Israel in the Bible have been taken away from the Jews and given to the Church, which has superseded them. However, the Jews are subject to the curses found in the Bible, as a result of their rejection of Christ How Do Replacement Theologians Argue Their Case? They Say: How Do Replacement Theologians Argue Their Case? They Say: 1. To be a son of Abraham is to have faith in Jesus Christ. For them, Galatians 3:29 shows that sonship to Abraham is seen only in spiritual, not national terms: "And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Rebuttal: While this is a wonderful inclusionary promise for Gentiles, this verse does not exclude the Jewish people from their original covenant, promise and blessing as the natural seed of Abraham. This verse simply joins us Gentile Christians to what God had already started with Israel. 2. The promise of the land of Canaan to Abraham was only a "starter." The real Promised Land is the whole world. They use Romans 4:13 to claim it will be the Church that inherits the world, not Israel. "For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Rebuttal: Where does this verse exclude Abraham and His natural progeny, the Jews? It simply says that through the law, they would not inherit the world, but this would be acquired through faith. This is also true of the Church. 3. The nation of Israel was only the seed of the future Church, which would arise and incorporate people of all nations (Mal. 1:11): "For from the rising of the sun, even unto the going down of the same, My Name shall be great among the nations, and in every place, incense shall be offered to My Name, and a pure offering for My Name shall be great among the nations, says the Lord of Hosts." Rebuttal: This is great, and shows that the Jewish people and Israel fulfilled one of their callings to be "a light to the nations," so that God's Word has gone around the world. It does not suggest God's dealing with Israel was negated because His Name spread around the world. 4. Jesus taught that the Jews would lose their spiritual privileges, and be replaced by another people (Matt. 21:43): "Therefore I am saying to you, 'The kingdom of God will be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it.'" Rebuttal: In this passage, Jesus was talking about the priests and Pharisees, who failed as leaders of the people. This passage is not talking about the Jewish people or nation of Israel. See Teaching Letter #770008, "Did God Break His Covenant With the Jews?" 5. A true Jew is anyone born of the Spirit, whether he is racially Gentile or Jewish (Rom. 2:28-29): "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rebuttal: This argument does not support the notion that the Church replaced Israel. Rather, it simply reinforces what had been said throughout the Hebrew Scriptures [the Old Testament], and it certainly qualifies the spiritual qualifications for Jews or anyone who professes to be a follower of the God of Israel. 6. Paul shows that the Church is really the same "olive tree" as was Israel, and the Church is now the tree. Therefore, to distinguish between Israel and the Church is, strictly speaking, false. Indeed, people of Jewish origin need to be grafted back into the Church (Rom 11:17-23). Rebuttal: This claim is the most outrageous because this passage clearly shows that we Gentiles are the "wild olive branches," who get our life from being grafted into the olive tree. The tree represents the covenants, promises and hopes of Israel (Eph. 2:12), rooted in the Messiah and fed by the sap, which represents the Holy Spirit, giving life to the Jews (the "natural branches") and Gentile alike. We Gentiles are told to remember that the olive tree holds us up and NOT to be arrogant or boast against the "natural branches" because they can be grafted in again. The olive tree is NOT the Church. We are simply grafted into God's plan that preceded us for over 2,000 years. 7. All the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament, unless they were historically fulfilled before the coming of Jesus Christ, are now the property of the Christian Church. These promises should not be interpreted literally or carnally, but spiritually and symbolically, so that references to Israel, Jerusalem, Zion and the Temple, when they are prophetic, really refer to the Church (II Cor. 1:20). "For all the promises of God in Him (Jesus) are Yea, and in Him, Amen, unto the glory of God by us." Therefore, they teach that the New Testament needs to be taught figuratively, not literally. Rebuttal: Later, in this Teaching Letter, we will look at the fact that the New Testament references to Israel clearly pertain to Israel, not the Church. Therefore, no promise to Israel and the Jewish people in the Bible is figurative, nor can they be relegated to the Church alone. The promises and covenants are literal, many of them are everlasting, and we Christians can participate in them as part of our rebirth, not in that we took them over to the exclusion of Israel. The New Testament speaks of the Church's relationship to Israel and her covenants as being "grafted in" (Rom. 11:17), "brought near" (Eph. 2:13), "Abraham's offspring (by faith)" (Rom. 4:16), and "partakers" (Rom. 15:27), NOT as usurpers of the covenant and a replacer of physical Israel. We Gentile Christians joined into what God had been doing in Israel, and God did not break His covenant promises with Israel (Rom. 11:29). By: Clarence H, Wagner, Jr. From: http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm Quasar93

A. The Millennium is a literal 1,000-year period in which Jesus will rule the whole world from Jerusalem in righteousness and peace. Millennium is from the Latin “mille” (a thousand). 4 I saw thrones, and they (saints) sat on them…They lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years…6 They shall reign with Him 1000 years. (Rev. 20:4-6) B. At this time the Kingdom of God will be openly manifest worldwide affecting every sphere of life (political, social, agricultural, economic, spiritual, educational, law enforcement, family, media, arts, technology, athletics, environment, social institutions, etc.). C. The result will be a 1,000-year period of unprecedented blessing for the whole earth as Jesus establishes righteousness and prosperity, and restores the agriculture, atmosphere, and animal life to some of the conditions that were seen in the Garden of Eden (Rev. 20:1-6; Isa. 2:1-4; 9:6-9; 11:1-16; 51:1-8; 60-62; 65:17-25; Ps. 2:6-12; 110:1-7; Deut. 8; 28; Mt. 5:5; 6:10; 17:11; 19:28; 28:19; Acts 1:6; 3:21). This period of blessing will be initiated by Jesus' Second Coming. D. Jesus as King of Kings, will personally govern a worldwide Kingdom from Jerusalem in partnership with resurrected saints who rule with Him (Rev. 2:26-27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4-6; 22:5; Mt. 19:28; 20:21-23; 25:23; Lk. 19:17-19; 22:29-30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rom 8:17). 17 Jerusalem shall be called the Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. (Jer. 3:17) E. The Millennial Kingdom is one of the major revelations of Scripture. Jesus’ core message was that God’s Kingdom was being released in a new measure on earth. The NT makes clear that the kingdom is ‘already here’ (in a limited expression) but is ‘not yet’ fully here until Jesus returns. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. (Mt. 6:10) F. Daniel saw the heavenly coronation of Jesus as the eternal King over all the dominions of earth. The dominions of the earth include every sphere of society. 13 One like the Son of Man (Jesus)…came to the Ancient of Days (Father)…14 To Him (Jesus) was given…a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him…27 His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve Him. (Dan. 7:13-14, 27) G. Jesus quoted Dan. 7:27 concerning His rule over all the nations and dominions of the earth . 31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory...then He will sit on the Throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him... (Mt. 25:31-32) H. In the Millennium all the kings of the earth will be saved and worship Jesus (Ps. 72:11; 102:15; 138:4; 148:11; Isa. 62:2; Rev. 21:24) and base their national governments on God’s Word. 11 All kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him. (Ps. 72:11) For the complete article: http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite.net ... Bickle.pdf Quasar93

As depicted in Jn.10:16, Jesus has TWO ELECTS. Israel, whom He was addressing and the Church He would bring also. His prophecy will not be fulfilled until He comes into His Millennial kingdom here on the earth. In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus angels will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel], and from one end of heaven to the other [The Church], in His second coming to earth from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, WITH His Church, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [the sign of the righteous acts of the saints], white and clean, in His armies from heaven. Quasar93

Yes indeed! Good point. Jesus is the author, John was His scribe. The fact of the matter is, there are several parenthetic passages in Revelation, such as that of Chapter 7. The 144,000 Israelite evangelists are introduced in verses 1-8. Followed by the Great Multitude the 144,000 will bring to the Lord, in verses 9-17. Who are, in fact, the same ones in Rev.20:4, who are the tribulation martyrs/saints. Quasar92

According to the context of the OP, those who gave us the teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture o the Church, are Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, whom you persist in claiming them to be liars. your above meaningless exercise in judgment of me personally, is the epitome of egotistical arrogance. Let me see your attempt at fielding an argument refuting any part of the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church. Failure to do so is clear evidence the views you propagate are those that are false! Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options! The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts: 1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11. 2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!. 3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. 4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1. Quasar93

FYI, God provided His Holy Spirit only to those He chose to give it in OT times. The New Covenant of Grace, where His HS is freely offered to all who believe in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, whom God raised from the dead, as his/her personal Lord and Savior, was not in existence until at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3! Since I have provided all the Scriptural facts in the first two posts in this thread as well as other places, my interfacing about it with you is terminated on this subject, with this post. It is pointless in spinding more time with someone who knows eschatology better than qualified theologians. Quasar93

FYI, Jesus ministry in His first advent, was exclusively to Israel, the Church DID NOT exist, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, Until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. In Mt.24:30, No ONE gathers together with the Lord. See Zech.9:14 and Rev.19:11-21 for a textual picture of that scene. In Mt.24:31, the angels will gather the ELECT from four winds [Israel] , from one end of heaven to the other [The raptured Church]. The OP and the following post of this thread, provide you with ALL the Scriptural support used by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, in the teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, you call them all liars, in denying them. Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology? The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted in the OP are fully endorsed by the following: 1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D. Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth. Quasar93

You're a little confused about who it is that teaches the "new meanings theologians try to put into the meaning of apostasia." I am a qualified teacher of the Bible, prophecy and eschatology, from which I have made a study of specifically over the past 36 years, having had its beginnings in August of 1937. And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology? The first post/OP of my thread, "The Biblical teaching of the Pre-trib Rapue of the Church," will provide you with the translation history of 2 thess.2:3. Also, that Jerome translated it from the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, with the Latin word, discessio, which also means departure, or to depart. In addition to that, the first seven English translations of the Bible, translated 2 Thess.2:3 as a departure of the Church, before the tribulation begins. There are different meanings for each of those two words, it depends upon the text they are used in to determin which one is used. Paul was teaching about a rature of the Church, not a falling awau in the text he used apostasia in, Yhe theme of the passafe, 2 Thess.2:1-8, is in the very first verse, which states, "about our gathering to the Lord Jesus Christ." Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we who are still alive will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air." That you are trying to call a falling away, after the word departure had been used in the passage for 16 centuries, untill it was altered in 1611 by KJV scribes to apostasy. Review the following reek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure' Here Mr. Wuest discusses 2Thes 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia." He asserts that it should be translated as 'departure' with reference to the rapture of the church. I have never come across this in any translation and I wonder if it is a correct exegesis of this verse? "The words =93a falling away=94 are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi inits intransitive sense means =93 to stand,=94 the prefixed preposition means=93 off, away from,=94 and the compound verb, =93 to stand off from.=94 The=word does not mean =93 to fall.=94 The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in=its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: =93 to make stand off, cause=to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one=94; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means =93to fall away, become faithless.=94 The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version =93 to depart,=94 in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27;=Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1;2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated =93 fall away,=94 in Acts 5:37, =93 drew away,=94 and in Acts 5:38, =93 refrain.=94 Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word =93 departure =94. The reader will observe that the predominant=translation of the verbal form is =93 to depart,=94 also, that where it is translated =93 fall away,=94 the context adds the idea of =93 falling away =94 to the verb, which =action is still a departure. E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply in debted for calling his attention to the word =93 departure=94 as the correct rendering=ofapostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean =93a departure=94 in this context: Tyndale(1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza(1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more inthe New Testament and is translated =93 to forsake=94 (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, =93 divorcement,=94 which=word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations. The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times bothin classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means =93a rebel.=94. But these are acquired meanings of the word=gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word =93 apostasy=94 means a defection from the truth is entirely beside=the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words =93 some shall depart from the faith==94 and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase =93 from the faith=94 indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context. With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. =93. The basal function=of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark =91 the object as definitely conceived,=92 for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article.=94. This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one,one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is =93 todenote previous reference.=94. Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context.=94 Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words =93 our gathering together unto=him,=94 not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered =93 and=94 can also be translated =93 even,=94 and the translation reads, =93 the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him.=94. The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to =93 the gathering together unto him =94 as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture rather than a pre-seventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God." By Kenneth S. Wuest From: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-12/0863.html Quasar93

You're a little confused about who it is that teaches the "new meanings theologians try to put into the meaning of apostasia." I am a qualified teacher of the Bible, prophecy and eschatology, from which I have made a study of specifically over the past 36 years, having had its beginnings in August of 1937. And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology? The first post/OP of my thread, "The Biblical teaching of the Pre-trib Rapue of the Church," will provide you with the translation history of 2 thess.2:3. Also, that Jerome translated it from the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, with the Latin word, discessio, which also means departure, or to depart. In addition to that, the first seven English translations of the Bible, translated 2 Thess.2:3 as a departure of the Church, before the tribulation begins. There are different meanings for each of those two words, it depends upon the text they are used in to determin which one is used. Paul was teaching about a rature of the Church, not a falling awau in the text he used apostasia in, Yhe theme of the passafe, 2 Thess.2:1-8, is in the very first verse, which states, "about our gathering to the Lord Jesus Christ." Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we who are still alive will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air." That you are trying to call a falling away, after the word departure had been used in the passage for 16 centuries, untill it was altered in 1611 by KJV scribes to apostasy. Review the following reek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure' Here Mr. Wuest discusses 2Thes 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia." He asserts that it should be translated as 'departure' with reference to the rapture of the church. I have never come across this in any translation and I wonder if it is a correct exegesis of this verse? "The words =93a falling away=94 are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi inits intransitive sense means =93 to stand,=94 the prefixed preposition means=93 off, away from,=94 and the compound verb, =93 to stand off from.=94 The=word does not mean =93 to fall.=94 The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in=its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: =93 to make stand off, cause=to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one=94; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means =93to fall away, become faithless.=94 The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version =93 to depart,=94 in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27;=Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1;2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated =93 fall away,=94 in Acts 5:37, =93 drew away,=94 and in Acts 5:38, =93 refrain.=94 Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word =93 departure =94. The reader will observe that the predominant=translation of the verbal form is =93 to depart,=94 also, that where it is translated =93 fall away,=94 the context adds the idea of =93 falling away =94 to the verb, which =action is still a departure. E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply in debted for calling his attention to the word =93 departure=94 as the correct rendering=ofapostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean =93a departure=94 in this context: Tyndale(1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza(1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more inthe New Testament and is translated =93 to forsake=94 (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, =93 divorcement,=94 which=word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations. The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times bothin classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means =93a rebel.=94. But these are acquired meanings of the word=gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word =93 apostasy=94 means a defection from the truth is entirely beside=the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words =93 some shall depart from the faith==94 and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase =93 from the faith=94 indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context. With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. =93. The basal function=of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark =91 the object as definitely conceived,=92 for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article.=94. This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one,one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is =93 todenote previous reference.=94. Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context.=94 Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words =93 our gathering together unto=him,=94 not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered =93 and=94 can also be translated =93 even,=94 and the translation reads, =93 the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him.=94. The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to =93 the gathering together unto him =94 as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture rather than a pre-seventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God." By Kenneth S. Wuest From: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-12/0863.html Quasar93

The above is as clear as mud. If you expect a response from me on it, kindly explain what you are talking about and what you claim I am in error about! Quasar93

FYI, there IS NO gathering together to the Lord in the sky at His second coming as I have shown you previously! Jesus ministry in His first advent was exclusively to Israel, that He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had NOT yet arrived, as recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and Acts 2:1-3. Mt.24:30-31 is Jesus second coming WITH HIS CHURCH, from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. Confirmation of Jesus second coming WITH His Church is recorded in Rev.19:11-21, in verse 14, as I have shown you before. The teaching by Paul, in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8, and by Jesus, in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, is about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church and has nothing whatever to do with His second coming, seven years later, WITH His Church! All of thism has been fully supported by the Scriptures posted in the OP and the post following. Quasar93

The following Scriptural facts to properly interpret them, do not always come from a single passage of Scripture. Thet also fully verify what I have previously posted and refute your guesswork over them: Mt.25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" Zech.14:5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" Rev.19:14 "14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean" Rev.19:8 "Fine linen, bright and clean,was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.) he Greek word apostasia, and the Latin word Fiscessio, in 2Thess.2:3, mean departure, or, to depart: 2 Thess.2:1 - "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to[meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed.. Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things? (vs. 5). There is a difference between the terms, The Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Day of the Lord. The Coming of our Lord, is for the gathering of the Church to meet Him, as in the fetching of the Bride found in I Thessalonians 4:16-17; and the Day of the Lord is the day of His vengeance, His wrath as we read in Joel 2:2, A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and of thick mists and darkness; a day of destruction, Isaiah 13:6; a great and terrible day (Joel 2:31); the Day of the Lord is darkness and not light; it is as if a man fled from a lion and a bear met him, or went into the house and leaned with his hand against the wall and a serpent bit him (Amos 5:18-19). So the Christians in Thessalonica understood the meaning of this day and through some letter they received, they feared to be in the tribulation. Paul then assured them: The Day of the Lord will not come until the departure comes first and after that the son of perdition will be revealed; and again he assured them again with the words, And now you know what is restraining him; the work of lawlessness is already at work in the world, but it is restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way and then the lawless one will be revealed (vs.6-8). This is the most comforting passage assuring the Bride of Christ that she will be taken before the revealing of the antichrist and the time of tribulation. The lawless one will be revealed only on the right time and no one knows when because this event is connected with the taking of the Bride of Christ, a day no one knows when, either the hour of her departure. Only when she is taken away will he be given power to govern the world, for he has no power over the Bride of Christ, whose body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. God’s removal of His Bride will confirm His words, Nothing can take them (His sheep) out of My hands. God will protect her from the lawless one by taking her away to Himself. So, as Paul said, Comfort and encourage your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word (II Thessalonians 2:17); and let no one deceive you with the idea that you are going through the tribulation, just as he assured the Thessalonians, he is assuring us of that too! For the complete article: http://www.lightfromtheword.org/upload/Apostasia%20or%20Departure.pdf Quasar93

What is interesting here is that Latin has a direct transliteration of "αποστασία" into Latin, which is "apostaciae". This of course indicates that he was aware of the original Greek wording of 2 Thess 2:3, and uses it in Latin, analyzing it as "apostacy" and not with some other meaning. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna / Izmir of modern day Turkey, and thus would have grown up speaking Greek. He was bishop to Lyons, France (Southwest France about 90 miles from Geneva, Switzerland) where he would have had to have learned Provencial French and Latin to function as a cleric in that society. Here, Irenaeus is saying something I've said before, that the CONTEXT of 2 Thess 2 fits interpretting "apostacia" as "apostacy" because the entire chapter is talking about apostacy. It is talking about the apostacy the son of perdition will lead. So Irenaeus uses the Latin "apostaciae" in V.25.5 and paraphrases it as "abscessio" in V.25.1, which has a variant of rebellion, not rapture. In fact, in the chapter preceeding this section, before he quotes 2 Thess 2, he is discussing the concept of apostacy before he quotes this passage. So both the context that sets up the quote and his commentary on it support that he understood this passage to refer to an "apostacy", not a rapture. So the flow of the context of what he says following like this.... Against Heresies V.24 A general discussion of apostacy, not related to end times Against Heresies V.25-early Quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and related text and analyzes it Against Heresies V.25-late Discusses the apostacies the lawless one will cause. So Irenaeus definitely shed a lot of light on how "αποστασία" was interpretted as meaning apostacy, not rapture. In Chapter 28, titled "...the future apostacy in the time of the AntiChrist...", he goes into even mroe detail about the apostacy of the end times. Justin Martyr (150-160 AD) Like Irenaeus, Justin also sees "apostacy" in the meaning of 2 Thess 2:3 and sees the word indicating what the "Lawless one" will cause, since he calls him the "Man of Apostacy" in Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter CX. He qualifies what apostacy is by saying he would, "speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians" (ibid). He also says, " 'Sata' in the Jewish and Syrian tongue means apostate" (Dialogue, Chapter CIII) and later calls Satan "an apostate from the will of God" (Dialogue, Chapter CXXV). Tertullian (160-225 AD) Tertullian quotes 2 Thess 2:3 with the same Latin wording as Irenaeus, but makes little comment on it. Hippolytus (170-236) Hippolytus seems to connect the abomination of desolation with 2 Thess 2:3, suggesting that he sees the abomination of desolation as the act of apostacy referred to in 2 Thess 2:3 when it refers to "apostacy". This is a bit different from Irenaeus' view, who sees "apostacy" as referring to MANY things that will occur, both a rebellion against the faith by people but also the wide range of rebellions that the False Messiah will lead the populace into. Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) Ephraim quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and says this... And when the Accursed One comes and displays his mighty works and wonders, the nations will gather together and come as (if) they were going to see God....every person will renounce their deity;" (Sermon by Ephraim on the End of the World ) So he clearly interprets "apostacy" here as rebellion and sees that "apostacy" as meaning, "every person will renounce their deity." Muslims will renounce Allah in favor of the False Messiah as their god. Buddhists will renounce Buddah in favor of the FM. Nominal Christians will renounce the Real Messiah for the False one. That is the picture of "apostacy" that Ephraim paints for his reader. They will accept the "man of sin" as "god". Cyril (315-387) Cyril attempts to reconstruct the chain of events that will occur in sequential order during the end times, but omits any mention of a rapture. Like Hippolytus, he too connects the abomination of desolation with 2 Thess 2:3 seeing it as the apparent act of apostacy cited in 2 Thess 2:3. He also quotes heavily on the word "Apostacy" itself, saying this, His comments give plenty of examples of how he interpreted the word "apostacia", and he sees it as something that has already begun, citing heretical teachings of his day. Augustine (354-430 AD) Augustine has this to say, So here Augustine seems to suggest a similar interpretation to what Irenaeus and Justin proposed. John Chrysostrom (349-407) John Chrysostrom was a Greek speaker who wrote in Greek. He quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and then says this.... The COLLECTIVE Other early writers quote 2 Thess 2, but some don't analyze it is a way to indicate how they interpreted "apostacia." Some analyze other aspects of the text. For example, many early writers commented on who the "Restrainer" was. But of those that did comment in such a way as to indicate HOW they interpreted the word "apostacia", they all interpret it to mean APOSTACY and give enough examples of that. They discuss different aspects of what "apostacy" could mean, indicating they are getting at least part of their analysis out of the meaning of the word, rather than from tradition. For example, Iranaeus, Justin, Augustine and Chrysostrum see the "apostacy" as the rebellion of the False Messiah himself. Hippolytus and Cyril both see the abomination of desolation included in the meaning of "apostacia". Ephraim sees "every person will renounce their deity" in the meaning of "apostacia" Cyril sees heretical ideas of his time in the meaning of "apostacia" So a variety of aspects of "apostacy" are included in how the early Church interpreted the word "apostacia" / apostacy in 2 Thess 2:3. But all of them see some form of rebellion in the meaning of the word and none see this as a rapture. Note that all 3 Latin writers see "apostacy" in the rebellious acts of the Man of Apostacy, and 2 Greek writers see the abomination of desolation in "apostacia". Iraenaeus grew up speaking Greek, so he counts in both categories linguistically, but more with the Latin West culturally. That's it for now brother. Take care. First of all, 2 Thes.2:1 is the theme o the passage consisting of verses 1 through 8,. :t states: "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him..." Is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air." Clear reference by Paul, he was teaching about a rapture of the Church, Not about the Church going into apostasy, or falling away in that passage at all. He then reinforced the Greek word, "apostasia," in which one of its meanings is "departure," harmoniously with verse 7, where he wrote the following: " The restrainer will continue to restrain, until he is "taken out of the way." Meaning the very same thing as "departure," in verse 3. In addition to that, Jerome in his translation of the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, he used the Latin word, "discessio," which also means, "departure," or "to depart." Which was the original and proper historical interpretation for 16 centuries, including those of the first seven English trabslations of the Bible. Until it was altered by KJV scribes in 1611 A.D. All of which has been previously posted. The teachings of Paul about apostasy and falling away are recorded in 2 Tim. 3, not in 2 Thess.2:1-8. Quasar93

1 Thess.4:16 will be the very next prophetic event to ake lace, 1 Cor.15:23, in referebce to resurrections, has nothing to do with it. Quasar93

I believe Jesus is returning to reign over the earth because the New Testament prophets say so. 1) Peter Acts 3:21 — In his sermon on the portico of Solomon, Peter says Jesus must remain in Heaven "until the period of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time." The period of restoration spoken of here will occur during the Millennium when the curse is partially lifted and nature is restored (Romans 8:18-23). 2) Paul 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 — Paul says that when Jesus returns "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel," He will also come for the purpose of being glorified before His saints. The return of Jesus to be glorified before His saints and all the nations of the world is one of the persistent themes of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 24:23, Isaiah 52:10,13, Isaiah 61:3, and Psalm 46:10). 2 Timothy 2:12 — Paul says "if we endure, we shall also reign with Him." 3) John Revelation 12:5 — John sees a vision in which a sun clothed woman (Israel) gives birth to a male child (Jesus) "who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron." Revelation 19:15-16 — In his description of Jesus returning to earth, John says He bears the title, "King of kings and Lord of lords," and John says He will "rule the nations with a rod of iron." Revelation 20:4,6 — John says that after the return of Jesus to the earth, He will reign with His saints ("those to whom judgment has been given") for a thousand years. I believe Jesus is returning to earth to reign because the Heavenly Host say so. 1) Gabriel Luke 1:26-38 — When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he told her that she would bear a son named Jesus who would be called "the Son of the Most High." He then added three promises that are yet to be fulfilled: "the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end." 2) The Four Living Creatures and the 24 Elders Revelation 5:9-10 — When John is raptured to Heaven and finds himself standing before the throne of God (Revelation 4), he hears "the four living creatures" (special angelic creatures called seraphim in Isaiah 6) and "the twenty-four elders" (probably representative of the redeemed) singing a song of praise to Jesus. In this song they say that Jesus is a Worthy Lamb who has made His redeemed a kingdom, "and they will reign upon the earth." 3) The Angels of God Revelation 11:15 — Voices from Heaven make a proleptic proclamation in the midst of the Tribulation: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." (Note: A proleptic statement is one that speaks of a future event as if it has already occurred. This is a common form of expression in prophecy because all future events are settled in the mind of God as if they had already happened in history.) 4) The Tribulation Martyrs Revelation 15:3-4 — At the end of the Tribulation, right before the final pouring out of God's wrath in the form of the bowl judgments, all the Tribulation martyrs who are in Heaven join together in singing "the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb." In that song, they declare the Lamb (Jesus) to be the "King of the nations," and they proclaim that "all the nations will come and worship before Thee." I believe Jesus is returning to reign on the earth because Jesus said so. Matthew 19:28 — Jesus said that during "the regeneration" (the same time as "the period of restoration" referred to by Peter in Acts 3:21), He will "sit on His glorious throne," and the Apostles will join Him in judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 25:31 — Jesus said that when He returns in glory, "the Son of Man... will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him" for judgment. The throne of Jesus is the throne of David which has always been located in only one place — in Jerusalem (see Isaiah 9:6-7and Psalm 122). Acts 1:3-6 — Luke says that Jesus spent 40 days teaching His disciples about the kingdom of God. Then, as He was ready to ascend into Heaven, one of the disciples asked, "Lord is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" The question indicates that Jesus taught a time would come when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Jesus' response to the question indicated the same thing. He did not rebuke the question. Rather, He simply said it was not for them to know the times and seasons when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Revelation 2:26-27 — Jesus says that He has a special reward for any "overcomer" who keeps His deeds until the end: "To him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron." Revelation 3:21 — Jesus makes it clear that the overcomers will reign jointly with Him: "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." Again, the throne of Jesus is the throne of David (Luke 1:32 and Revelation 3:7). The throne of David is in Jerusalem, not in Heaven (Psalm 122). Jesus currently shares His Father's throne. He is not sitting on His own throne and will not do so until He returns to this earth. Then He will allow the redeemed to share His throne with Him. For proof of Jesus millennial reign on the earth, go to the following link: From: http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_second1.php By Dr. David R. Reagan Quasar93

Why some of the text of your post didn't appear as a quote from it is a mystery to me. In any event, you are again providing nothing but your opinion, together with Scripture that is irrelevant to this issue. You make remarks such as, "lots of assumption here," etc. While if you read the Scriptures I have used to fully support this issue, you could see crystal clear, you have no argument whatever, in denying the Scriptural proofs of the coming pre-trib rapture, as posted in the OP and the post that follows, whatever.. FYI, I a a qualified teacher of the Bible. prophecy and eschatology, having earned it from three different Bible colleges, with 36 years of research and study in prophecy and eschatology ALONE. And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology. FYI, the Church meets Jesus in the clouds of the sky, in 1 Thess.4:17, when He comes for it with all those who previously died in Him, in verses 14, 15 and 16. From where He will take it to heaven, recorded in Jn.14>2-3 and 28. The Bride/Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, that Jesus used John, symbolically, in Rev.4:1-2 to represent the Church. Who are then seen in heaven for their marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. Jesus will then return to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, in his second coming, following Him, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, recorded in verse 8], white and clean, in His armies from heaven. Your attempt to alter the Scriptural meaning by calling those in verse 14, angels, is false. There is no doubt whatever, the angels will be in Jesus armies from heaven also, but verse 14 specifically refers to the saints/Church. May I suggest that you refrain from calling anything I post as "not true," but rather, try proving it with Scriptural support. Quasar93

There are two groups who belong to Christ: 1. Those who have died in Him, as recorded in 1 Thes.4:13-14. 2. Those of us who will be alive at His coming. Quasar93