Mike 2

I agree that when the people realized Jesus was talking about dying they gave up believing he was the hero they were expecting. I also think there is something bigger happening here. Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh accomplishes nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. They cannot believe something if they don't understand it and the Holy Spirit cannot "make" them understand it if they don't want to. These people were focused on the physical and were not yet open to even considering the spiritual truths that Jesus was using the physical to demonstrate. From the very beginning the bible uses the physical to teach about spiritual truths. Even knowing this today, there are still plenty of people that are not willing to open themselves up for that understanding. Most people, Christians included, don't realize we live a dual life and as a result don't know that the teachings of Jesus have a second intended meaning. Even with that verse quoted here in the bible there will still be those that just won't get it because they only are considering the physical. As a side note..the idea of drinking Jesus blood was set up in Genesis 3:21 where the given up life in the blood is partnered with the lost life of a soul...they were being covered physically by the skin but more importantly they were being covered spiritually by the life the blood represented. To physically take Jesus blood in is our Lords way of saying to spiritually "take my life in" and obviously was not meant to be taken literally. That is why the drinking of blood was prohibited right from the very beginning and because they were only thinking in the physical it caused many to turn away when Jesus presented the teaching. The rule not to consume blood was set up and reserved for this very moment and this very person, the Messiah.

I like what you said here: Becoming a Christian is not that easy. You step into a spiritual battle, a battle that you were blind to before you came into faith. People are exasperated trying to live in that battle and trying to understand why life is so hard........because we are caught up in worldly pursuits and don't see how we are suckered into thinking about everything but God, we're too busy trying to control everything. Half of winning the battle is realizing we are in it, and can't win it.....the other half is giving up on trying to win it from our own thoughts and decisions and turning to the Lord.....it's like sitting down after standing all day (sound of a jet engine shutting down here). I was in the same boat as you when I first became a Christian frustrated with all the wrong doing and temptation. I found with time though 2 things happened 1) doing the right thing became easier and easier as I learned one step at a time, first this...got it, now this...got it, now this 2) I became more patient with those around that were still caught up in the worldly life and realized, hey, I'm not as strung out as them anymore hmmmmm this Christian thing has actually relieved a lot of the pressure of keeping up with the Joneses. Unfortunately every once in a while I find myself down at the dock and launching that boat again. Jesus will take a lot of the work and stress out of the battle if we learn to change the station and tune into him. Paul calls it "working out or salvation" (Php 2:12) We're saved, that's a done deal, but now, knowing what we know and learning, we start to work that salvations effect in us out into our life, into the world around us. Yea I agree it can be hard sometimes.

Probably better to push that button than type something negative (perceived or otherwise)

Probably the best place to start is with a definition of church a church? the church? ?

Something to keep in mind is that these verses do indicate that all know God through nature.....we do come to understand that there must be a God that created everything. Even the person on a remote island in the south Pacific 800 years ago would know there is a God, but, they probably never her the name of Jesus.

Rev 21:23 The city doesn't need any sun or moon to give it light, because the glory of God gave it light, and the lamb was its lamp.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God. I gotta believe that every person will have an opportunity to hear of the Christ. Maybe the question is ....when ?

Dare I wade into this. Yown hit on a passage earlier that I think deserves closer consideration 1Co 2:10 But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. 1Co 2:11 Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except his own inner spirit? In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit. 1Co 2:12 Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God. We see that Gods thoughts and Gods Spirit are 2 different things.....the Spirit knows the thoughts just as a mans thoughts and his spirit are 2 different things. The "spirit" and the "thoughts" are separate both in God as we see above and in man as we also see above. Keep in mind we are not talking about the spirit (ual) vs. the physical here. Let's dig just a little deeper... Joh 5:19 Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, What the Father does, the Son does likewise. How does the Son "see" what the Father is doing?......1Co 2:11 In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit. ....the Son knows through the Spirit communicating the "thoughts" of God. "God" is made up of the Father, Holy Spirit and Son....if we understand the Spirit and the Son from these verses that leaves the "thoughts"......the "thoughts" must be the Father! We know what the Son does so we have the Spirit and the Father left over for us to decide which is "spirit" and which is "soul"...and we have just looked at that relationship. Paul struggled with the differences between knowing in his "thoughts" what was right but still doing what he does not want to do....... Rom 7:20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me. * Paul knows what he "wants to do" * Rom 7:21 So I find this to be a principle: when I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me. Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God in my inner being, Paul is talking about the struggle between his inner self (which I take to be his soul) knowing what is right and his spirit that is trying to react to fleshly things based on what he has learned from his worldly environment. If we look at 1Co 2:12, we see that we receive a new "Spirit" that I assume acts as a "new choice" beside our old spirit to help us change our world view to a kingdom view and act accordingly. Jesus exemplifies over and over again, particularly in John's gospel how the "Spirit that knows the thoughts (the Father) of God perfectly, without influence from the world "shows" the Son what the Father wants done. Gen 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image; in his own image God created them; he created them male and female. Obviously this is not talking about the physical. In fairness many debate that it is the spirit that influences the soul and the soul works out into the physical . I'm not clinging to what I've written but I haven't heard any other explanation that makes sense to me.....definitely haven't seen one in this discussion.

Below is a belief statement of immediate presence with the Lord. What is / are the biblical indicators of that belief? That should be the place from which to start the discussion.

Time is something that is used to determine a beginning and an end. Before anything was created there was no beginning and end to measure.Therefore no timing of things. It really brings in to question (don't go there Mike) of how to define "day" in the first part of Genesis, a merry go round many hop on to.

Some look at the tree of life as a metaphor for spiritual knowledge / life. Food that you take in. For instance, it wasn't the fruit from the tree of good and evil that caused spiritual death, rather it was the learning/ knowledge of sin taken in to the spirit as a consequence of breaking that one rule, that caused spiritual death. The tree of life would be the learning/ knowledge of righteousness. It's the same thing for the skin that God gave Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness . It represents the life given (blood spilled) to cover over the shame of their sin. The blood, from then until Jesus, was never to be drank because it contains the life....then Jesus says 'Drink my blood' (take in my spiritual life) Joh 6:54

I relish the idea of JW's coming to the door!! These people are in love with God and I love talking about God with them. I try to be as loving as possible and even though I know the differences in their theology and a Christians I know that these people are really looking for a relationship with God. They are just sooo misguided. I don't "load up with ammunition" to try and shoot them down. I look at what we agree on and establish that we are both looking for a relationship with God. I think the most important thing I can establish after that is that "with all the translations out there, there can be different meanings in different bibles" I don't care who you are talking to, when you say that they will agree with you! 'So how then do we get the best understanding of what was really said in the bible?'.......we have to look at multiple bibles and determine the meaning from a cross section. Now we are into a bible study, me setting the example with my 6 (a dozen on my computer)...they with their 1, and on the way to correcting bad or even evil theology. I never get into an argument put choose to shrug my shoulders and say 'OK we disagree here' They always come back We have to stop looking at confronting as a way of showing people their theology is wrong and learn to ask the questions that get people to think and want to discover truth independent of what they are being told ....from their church or from me telling them what they believe is wrong The bible tells us to go out and evangelize....heck God's bringing them to the door!!!! Gotta step into that with love and not mess it up Acts 17:16 Paul in Athens

Interesting how "the souls" weren't caught until they listened to Jesus. Had a dream one night, turns out it was tied in to the season I was going through in my spiritual walk. A well respected preacher came up to me while I was working a BBQ and asks me with a smile 'Watcha' got for me?' I rather sheepishly pick up 2 small lunch baggies with a small fish cooked golden brown in each one and embarrassingly give them to him, he gleefully accepts them with a huge smile ......then I wake up................. Whhaaaat? So I'm thinking about this dream and slowly it dawns on me that you can catch a minnow, you can catch a shark, you can catch a trout, you can catch a marlin, but....a fish is a fish is a fish. You can catch one in the ocean, in a polluted river ,in a creek or a stagnant pond , still a fish is a fish is a fish! Doesn't matter what it looks like , where it is or where it came from...a fish is a fish is a fish. A soul is a soul is a soul...doesn't matter what it looks like, where its coming from or where it is right now. I was struggling with the people that were in my life. I was involved with Sunday school all along thinking I should be teaching adults at church, with some people outside church that were drug addicts, alcoholics, I was going in to a prison, I was talking with homosexuals that were coming to church and struggling with their desires, plus there were the people that would stop in to my work to talk about their repeated difficulties that I knew would go away if they would ..just.... . I was frustrated with the setbacks I was seeing with many, if only they would get rid of this or that they would find God. Except for the kids, these people I was involved with had lives that I thought would be so much better if they would just change their environment. Frankly, in doing that, they would be be more acceptable in society and their lives would be better. It does not matter what sin is in a persons life or where they are in their spiritual journey, Jesus the Son of God comes into that. I have since been to bible studies with people holding a bible in one hand and a beer in the other, with needles falling out of pockets while discussing the gospel. God does not care where the fish is caught or what it looks like. The reality is He does not require anyone to change before he will come into their lives...only we do. Jesus is not physically walking around on the earth right now, we as sons (and daughters) of God are now doing that with His Spirit within us. That's how Jesus appears in the world today, through us. We have to put our idea of what good fishing looks like aside and put our net down where our Lord directs us....He knows where the fish are biting and doesn't look at the outside but the desire of the soul inside. Something we don't do because we are caught up in looking at physical appearances and cultures. Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to his disciples, Why does your Master take food with tax-farmers and sinners? Mat 9:12 But on hearing this he said, Those who are well have no need of a medical man, but those who are ill. Mat 9:13 But go and take to heart the sense of these words, My desire is for mercy, not offerings: for I have come not to get the upright, but sinners. A fish is a fish is a fish

In light of what Shiloh said in an earlier post On 5/23/2018 at 3:06 PM, shiloh357 said: No Christian can commit Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The ONLY people in the Bible who committed that sin were those who rejected Jesus............ Mar_3:29 but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: Heb 6:4 As for those who at one time saw the light, tasting the good things from heaven, and having their part in the Holy Spirit, Heb 6:5 With knowledge of the good word of God, and of the powers of the coming time, Heb 6:6 And then let themselves be turned away, it is not possible for their hearts to be made new a second time; because they themselves put the Son of God on the cross again, openly shaming him. Could " it is not possible for their hearts to be made new a second time" actually mean that it is not possible for them to "let themselves be turned away" because the Holy Spirit is so overwhelmingly obvious? If that's the case, then the question could be asked....Who then could blaspheme the Holy Spirit? The Pharisees knew the Holy Spirit was at work, they knew Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah spoken of. Were their "hearts made new" in the realization of the discovery of the Messiah and the Holy Spirit BUT they rejected it knowing full well the truth in their hearts. Done once....no second time? Is that how it works?

Hey Lady, For various reasons, I've been off and on this site a number of times over the years and I have nowhere near the posts that you have. I leave primarily because I don't want it to become something ...."I just have to do or I feel I'm missing something".. Some may not like me for saying this but to get as many posts as you have, you have either had to be on this site for a long time or all the time. That may or may not be an unhealthy thing . For what it's worth I think your thinking it is the "in-law" thing...same ol yadda yadda yadda is a good bet. I am able to enjoy this site because, I can walk away and take a break and don't have to worry about it becoming a big deal. I am of the opinion that if I don't have someone here challenging me then I am not going to expand my knowledge and in turn my learning to explain why I believe what I do. Having said that, when things get unruly ... click...........I just take a break . If the thought of stepping away from this makes you anxious maybe you need to ask yourself what priority this site takes in your life.

Take a look at Romans 14 about causing others to stumble. Also , 1C0r 8:1 and on says that eating meat offered to idols is ....just meat. If you can see it as such then it is just food. But... When doing that someone who has weaker faith may still see it as a sin and you may lead them to eat that meat, not just simply as food but as they see it, as an offering to an idol....to them they see it as sinning and you have led them into sin, even though you yourself are not sinning.....not a good example for you to set. I think if you are concerned in any way at all about whether what you are doing is a good thing or not you need to step back from it and really look at the negatives in taking part. Something is obviously nudging you and your spirit is feeling it. That's a good thing, you just need to discern now. Both passages use meat as an example but the principle can be applied to anything we do. Blessings

I think if we do a bit of deductive reasoning we will note that Jesus had not come on the scene yet and in the Old Testament (when Michael would have been contested by the devil) God was referred to as The Lord. Something to keep in mind though is that God is made up of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit and is not some 4th entity. The Son, whom we see in the physical as Jesus in the New testament, had not yet been fully revealed in the Old Testament although we do see him manifesting in different ways.

What differentiates speculation from exegesis?

Well said

Resisting the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I think you may find it beneficial if you take the time to look at the context of the verses you are quoting. It appears you are taking a lot of them out of context, in that they are not related to "blaspheming" the Holy Spirit. I also think it would be good to look at a definition of the word blaspheme and then look at what you are writing in light of that

reposted as a response below

I think there is one important and central point that is being left out here. When Jesus was talking about blaspheming the Holy Spirit he was talking about something that had just happened with the religious leaders. They KNEW and believed it was the Holy Spirit of God at work, THEY KNEW, but they did not want to lose their status so they denied it. The key here is if I speak truth about the Holy Spirit and the person hearing that word doesn't believe it, but believes something else, they are not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Just because I spoke truth and they don't accept it, doesn't mean they are denying the truth, they are just not accepting it as truth. The Pharisee's KNEW it was the Holy Spirit at work but lied to everyone listening and taught that it was something evil. I cant stress enough that THEY KNEW but despite it being so obvious, they chose to deny it for selfish reasons....they knowingly chose self, not God.

James writes in chapter 2 that faith without works is dead. David became "a man after my own heart" because he would seek what God wanted him to do. James expresses it in a way that, if we think about it, our faith grows as we work at learning to see God at work and trust that He is calling us into partnering with Him to work in the physical world in various ways. We may start out small, but as we respond we grow stronger in trust/ faith and as a consequence come closer to Gods heart. If we don't respond, then obviously our faith in Him and His calling us is not very strong and if we constantly find excuses not to respond, what little faith we have in trusting Him eventually withers away (dies) and we don't have any faith that He is at work in our lives....faith without works is dead. It doesn't mean we lose our salvation....we just don't trust God will be with us when uncomfortable worldly things arise, we become scared, try to handle it in worldly ways and as a result move away from His Heart. If ANYONE is wondering why they don't sense God in their life.......well........He's probably calling you to do something you are uncomfortable with and you won't trust Him that it will be good in the end. Jas 2:20 Do you not see, O foolish man, that faith without works is of no use?........ ....Jas 2:24 You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only..... right·eous·nessˈnoun.... the quality of being morally right or justifiable. (This is not salvation, but is something we receive from God M.S.) ....Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead even so faith without works is dead.

Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law!! It has a purpose. Gal 3:23 Now before faith came about, we were held in custody and confined under the Law in preparation for the faith that was to be revealed. Gal 3:24 And so the Law was our guardian until the Messiah came, so that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come about, we are no longer under a guardian. The bible often gives a message pertaining to a group of people that actually pertains to us personally. This is one of those examples. Even though the Messiah has come into the world, if he has not come into my personal world, I still have some Law that I am under that constantly hovers over me, reminding me that I am a sinner. I'd be willing to say that in some way or another all humans are aware of or try to follow the 10 commandments without realizing it. I think we all too often go to the status quo phrase "the Law no longer applies" simply because we have heard it so often and without really knowing what we are saying. There is a context and proviso that goes with that saying that eludes many. I believe Paul was saying we are under the law until we come to faith in Christ. This thought is reinforced by what he says in Romans; Rom 7:7 What should we say, then? Is the Law sinful? Of course not! In fact, I wouldn't have become aware of sin if it had not been for the Law. I wouldn't have known what it means to covet if the Law had not said, "You must not covet." Rom 7:8 But sin seized the opportunity provided by this commandment and produced in me all kinds of sinful desires, since apart from the Law, sin is dead. No law to break....no such thing as sin (think of Adam and Eve) . No sin...no need for forgiveness.... ...no choice...no grace The Law still has a purpose! No longer for me though, because for me , it has served it's purpose in bringing me to the only solution it's designed to do.....faith in the Messiah.

Jesus said this; Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, No to loving satan.. the bible shows us he will never repent, no amount of love will bring him to repentance his children....should be defined....humans yes, .....,fallen angels, no because they are in the same boat as satan IHeb 6:4 For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become partners with the Holy Spirit, Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of God's word and the powers of the coming age, Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule. I'm sure if this is true for humans these verses can easily be applied to satan and his fallen angels who have been in the very presence of God. I'm not trying to say this, Our Lord did! Mat 5:40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat as well. Just because our Lord said to do this doesn't mean it is easy. I'm not sure that there are exceptions to what he said either. I'm convinced that the reason for doing this is to start them on the path to a relationship with God....something we already have and are not going to lose over shirt and coat. This is something bigger and more important than my coat. It's a persons salvation and them living a new positive life. That's not what I'm saying at all and that's definitely not what the bible is saying. Mat 5:25 Come to terms quickly with your opponent while you are on the way to court, or your opponent may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. This is another "in danger of " warning Jesus is giving. You have to look at the intent "behind" the things Jesus is saying , towards the spiritual meanings....not just to the letter of the writing or the literal meaning...there is deep spiritual advice Jesus is giving here, but we have to have an open heart and spiritual "ears" that are willing to listen. I think you are trying too hard to justify revenge and are looking for bible verses to prove it, but in light of God incarnate as Jesus and what He teaches in the new life God calls us to.....they're just not there. Ogner, I don't blame you for feeling that way or feeling frustrated, it's a normal human reaction that I feel from time to time too but there is a reason Jesus tells us these things. Forgiveness plays a HUGE, HUGE part in being able to work this out. There's a saying..."Not forgiving is like taking poison and hoping for the other person to die"