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Mike 2

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  1. I think you are going to the extreme and it's ridiculous to suggest that I may be saying we should be grateful for persecution. Do you not understand what Peter is saying or are you trying to say that my understanding of what Peter is saying is wrong? I'm not trying to be challenging or confrontational, I'm just not sure I understand the way you are writing...please don't be insulted.
  2. I think you are responding to this bible verse... 1Pe 2:20 What good does it do if, when you sin, you patiently receive punishment for it? But if you suffer for doing good and receive it patiently, you have God's approval. I think one of two things is happening between us. 1. There is a language barrier 2. you have an idea in your head and you a trying to make the biblical text work within that Consider what you are saying here; You are saying that Jesus said this when he didn't...look at the different bible versions below, they are by all means not exhaustive . But we HAVE TO CONCLUDE that Jesus is not saying will be sent to hell but is saying is in danger of being sent to hell. These are 2 different things!!! Matthew 5:22 (ABP+) But IG1473 G1161 sayG3004 to you,G1473 thatG3754 allG3956 G3588 provoking to angerG3710 G3588 his brother,G80 G1473 in vain,G1500 shall be liableG1777 G1510.8.3 to theG3588 judgment.G2920 And whoG3739 G1161 everG302 should sayG2036 to G3588 his brother,G80 G1473 Worthless!G4469 shall be liableG1777 G1510.8.3 to theG3588 sanhedrin.G4892 And whoG3739 G1161 everG302 should sayG2036 O moron!G3474 shall be liableG1777 G1510.8.3 forG1519 theG3588 GehennaG1067 G3588 of fire.G4442 (ASV) but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire. (BBE) But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be in danger of being judged; and he who says to his brother, Raca, will be in danger from the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, You foolish one, will be in danger of the hell of fire. (ISV) But I say to you, anyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be subject to punishment. And whoever says to his brother 'Raka!' will be subject to the Council. And whoever says 'You fool!' will be subject to hell fire. (KJV) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (KJV+) ButG1161 IG1473 sayG3004 unto you,G5213 ThatG3754 whosoeverG3956 is angryG3710 with hisG848 brotherG80 without a causeG1500 shall beG2071 in dangerG1777 of theG3588 judgment:G2920 andG1161 whosoeverG3739 G302 shall sayG2036 to hisG848 brother,G80 Raca,G4469 shall beG2071 in dangerG1777 of theG3588 council:G4892 butG1161 whosoeverG3739 G302 shall say,G2036 Thou fool,G3474 shall beG2071 in dangerG1777 ofG1519 hellG1067 fire.G4442 (LITV) But I say to you, Everyone who is angry with his brother without cause shall be liable to the Judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever says, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of Hell. (WEB) But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment; and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. (YLT) but I—I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire. Clearly the idea of using these verses to say someone is going to hell is wrong and must be put to rest. Rom 12:17 Do not pay anyone back evil for evil, but focus your thoughts on what is right in the sight of all people....... Rom 12:19 Do not take revenge, dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me. I will pay them back, declares the Lord." Heb 9:27 Indeed, just as people are destined to die once and after that to be judged,
  3. Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. I think you are reading into this and trying to apply your own theology Jesus in the "Sermon on the Mount" is addressing what so many of us are guilty of and that is living to the letter of the law. He is basically saying "if you are just living by the letter of the law then you are missing the point!" Jesus is telling us that we should be living by the spirit of the law. I don't know where you are getting the idea of "Two eyes for eye, and two teeth for tooth and coat for shirt." But what Jesus is saying here is to do just the thing you are struggling with not wanting to do, that is to show love in spite of being mistreated. If you get slapped...you should turn the other cheek resist the evil doer , that is, resist falling into the same sin when you react. Instead of punching him in the face or taking out his eye....or his life....turn the other cheek Really what Jesus is driving home is that there is more to the written law than what we read just on the surface. The people he was talking to in this Matthew passage were living to the letter of the law. We see the evidence of this when we realize that the 600 and something original God given laws have increased to over 30,000 man made laws. It hit over 30,000 because people were looking at ways to get around the literal meaning of the law and in so doing missed the spirit of the law. In attempts to literally instill the spirit of the law more laws were made in order to fill "loop holes". A good example of this is what you have quoted about the Pharisees: In Matthew 5:20 Jesus say, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees were real good at living to the letter of the law and because of it were considered to be righteous by everyone, but Jesus is saying that the people need to be more righteous than that and then he goes on to describe what he means in the verses about turning the other cheek, and the spirit of the law ....guarantee you the Pharisees never did that! One of the things that really stood out about the Law when it was given to the Israelite's in the Exodus was that at that time, for instance, if you took someones eye out or hurt one of their animals, they would kill you and that was that. In that world the Law was revolutionary and counter cultural. To say an eye for an eye was to offer a restriction from...a death for an eye. In following the law God said he would bless the Israelite's. Other nations would notice those blessings, would notice that they followed "different" laws and would ask questions why. That was a perfect opportunity to glorify God. And that's what God's plan was...to reveal himself through the nation of Israel because they were ......different. God now reveals himself through us because we are.....different. We don't take an eye for an eye.
  4. I have worked in prison ministry and I have practiced this many times . I need to point out that murderers and criminals etc are seen as some of the extreme cases but I have to say, I have some relatives that I have to work harder at with selfless love. It requires that we look past what they did and at the fact that they are hurting damaged souls that need Gods unbounding love and we are His ambassadors. It's not any easy task we are called to and again,I'm not suffering through this at this time so it's much easier to say now than when I am. I'm also not going through what you must be going through now particularly with the unrest in your part of the world. However, Peter was and this is what he had to say. 1Pe 2:19 For it is a fine thing if, when moved by your conscience to please God, you suffer patiently when wronged. 1Pe 2:20 What good does it do if, when you sin, you patiently receive punishment for it? But if you suffer for doing good and receive it patiently, you have God's approval. 1Pe 2:21 This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because: The Messiah also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in his steps. 1Pe 2:22 "He never sinned, and he never told a lie." 1Pe 2:23 When he was insulted, he did not retaliate. When he suffered, he did not threaten. It was his habit to commit the matter to the one who judges fairly. This whole chapter in 1 Peter is worth reading and meditating on.
  5. . I think we may have different understandings of the word love. The most common biblical example of "love" that I am referring to, as it pertains to God is AGAPE love. You may be considering one of the other definitions below Agape , other centered love will consider that the angry, murderer is missing out on love and joy and therefore anger and hatred steps in. Other centered love sees the pain that is caused by that anger and hatred and knows that it comes from rejection and a lack of love, perceived or real, somewhere in that persons life. Agape love is what is predominate in 1 Cor. 13 8 Different Types of Love “Eros” or Erotic Love. “Philia” or Affectionate Love. “Storge” or Familiar Love. “Ludus” or Playful Love. “Mania” or Obsessive Love. “Pragma” or Enduring Love. “Philautia” or Self Love. “Agape” or Selfless Love.
  6. In this verse Jesus is saying IN DANGER OF, they are on a slippery slope that can lead to these bad things. An example would be if I was angry with someone and unwilling to love and forgive. I would be in danger of my unforgiveness leading me to do something sinful. Revenge can be a terrible thing.
  7. The law was a covenant, a contract. There are 2 ways a contract can be "finished/ terminated" 1) to break it....which the Israelite's did but God did not 2) to fulfill it to completion.....which the Israelite's did not do but God did, incarnated as the man Jesus When the Son of God (Jesus) fulfilled the law( Covenant) it's terms were deemed complete and Jesus (the Son of God) brought in the New Covenant that we read about in Jer. 31:31- 34 He may not have destroyed the law but He unlocked it's chains and it only serves to make those that have not accepted Gods forgiveness captive to their sin. That includes born again Christians.
  8. You have to keep in mind here that he is talking about the forgiveness that has been extended by the Son ......"he that believeth not" is a person that has not acknowledged the need for and the acceptance of forgiveness. The question in the OP is does God love His enemies. God has extended his love and forgiveness to all, but not all will accept that, refusing it. God does not send people to hell, hell is for sin and we are already destined to it because we are dead in our sin. He has produced a ticket to heaven, to new life back into community with Him, for every single created being ....and offered it. To complete that process though, the gift has to be accepted or it cannot be used. As sons of God, we are asked to do the same thing, to offer the gift of forgiveness, even if the gift is not accepted.
  9. It is exactly what Jesus did. He put that redemption right out there...for everyone. Maybe nothing will change, that happened in the story of the servant in Matthew but, we don't know that. And I think you might be surprised to find out how many nasty people changed their way because out of all the people they met one person did something nice to them, showed some love. I think it's important to keep in mind that we are talking about spiritual things here and that as believers we already have the treasure of Jesus and salvation. This is a treasure greater than we will ever use and can never lose. It is separate from anything we experience temporarily in the physical. It is transformative. It is powerful. And if we share it, even with people that the standards of the world say we should hate and turn away from it does not take anything away from the overflowing amount we have. Nothing. We spiritually have nothing to lose sharing that love shown and given to us. That doesn't mean it's easy to do or easily understood why we should do it, after all the bible tells us that Gods love is beyond understanding.
  10. Just remember love and like are 2 different things and require a different effort. Love is something that focuses on someone else and requires an effort on our part as we seek to show a better way to someone. Where as like is a feeling we have and do not have any control over. I have found when dealing with people like you mention that understanding that they are consumed by something , sometimes even knowing what that may be, helps me to understand why they can be so self...ish. Because that's what they are. It doesn't excuse them but it does help me to at least pity them for the agony they are suffering so much that they take it out on me and others.
  11. You are making me think about how we often think that God is punishing when in reality we are suffering the consequences of our sin. I suppose He could say "I told you so" rather than let us blame the consequences of our own doing on Him. But then again...He does warn us. In the same way we may try to blame satan. Although he may be the tempter, it is our own doing that causes us to sin, not the tempter.
  12. What you are saying is true, so having said that , it leads us to ask the question in the Matthew story ...."if the master forgives how is it that he takes back the forgiveness and punishes the servant". Two things become obvious by your post . Once forgiven by God you are forgiven...no take backs... so the forgiveness was not canceled but remains in effect. That can only mean that the forgiveness was never accepted by the servant. How can that be... his debt was forgiven? This is where we have to remember that Jesus used physical stories to explain spiritual truths (parables). This servant was not looking to change his bad ways or attain forgiveness, he just wanted the debt (physical / worldly problems) to be removed so that he could continue doing what he was doing unhindered......there was no repentance. No inner spiritual change. In fact there never was any decision for spiritual change within the servant. He wasn't looking for forgiveness, he just wanted to get out of a bad spot. He never accepted the forgiveness in the first place. The second thing is that Jesus is talking about an unbeliever, not a believer. That we must come to him with a repentant heart somehow looking for a change.
  13. I have to default to dispensations, where we consider how we treat our children at different stages in their lives. I'm not going to teach my toddler astro physics (as if I could) and just the same I'm not going to be putting diapers on my 20 year old and playing patty cake. I will adjust how I interact with them based on the point to which they are developing. As God goes through the process of revealing himself to us through the ages he does it in different ways as we come to know him better. So the God we see in the Old Testament interacted with man differently then the way He does in the New Testament. There are many things He does in the OT but the most significant thing He does is establish that He is God and ultimately sovereign. In the NT he reveals even more of himself as he becomes incarnate. Same God in the OT and the NT. In the New Testament we see the "make up" of God revealed to us as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is not a new or different God, we have come to know God as he has revealed himself so far in the OT and are now ready for a clearer revelation of him. In the dispensation of the NT he reveals Himself in finer detail. The God of the OT was not just the God of the Jews, he was the God of all. He made himself known to all that were following other gods through the Jews. This is kind of off topic though.
  14. Yeah I know I responded before I read ALL the posts Gave Him a Thumbs up for the apology.
  15. I believe that the master in the story was showing all that towards the servant fully knowing that the servant was unrepentant. The forgiveness was given to that murdering burglar rapist, but the servant did not have a sincere repentant heart, he never really accepted that he needed forgiveness, he just wanted to avoid the penalty of the debt he owed. Having said that the master did show love and forgiveness for the servant that showed no remorse for their crime. My love and forgiveness is what helps to pave the path for someone to repent. Like the servant they may or may not repent BUT if they don't, they can NEVER use the excuse that I wouldn't forgive them....it's all on them, their free will choice. Something I would like to add .....it seems that you are having to deal with some offensive people right now. At this time in my life I am not...although many times in the past I have had to, and I will again in the future. It's easy for me to say all this now, but not so easy to do it when you are in the thick of it. Your forgiveness and mercy may go completely unaccepted but it's all you can do.
  16. May I suggest you reconsider the God of the Old Testament with this thought in mind. Jesus spoke in parables, he gave physical examples that really had a spiritual meaning. Most, if not all of the Old Testament stories are God's way of using "parables" as well. You can take any story in the Old Testament and almost without fail find the very significant spiritual meaning it represents. I would urge you to consider that the physical/ worldly stories have a spiritual meaning and you have to figure out what they are. Ezra and Nehemiah for instance are not just about the return of the exiles and how they have to deal with a world that is twisted and ungodly it also can be applied to any one of us that are personally going through the life changing experience of turning to God and facing the struggles of the old way of life trying to get in and destroy us. The Israelite's coming out of Egypt, crossing the Red Sea while the Egyptians try to pull them back is another example. Crossing the Jordan into the promised land, all can be related to each of us on a personal level. Our God is a genius in the way He layed this all out for us! We have to learn that the bible is teaching us about living a dual life......one in the physical world (worldly) ...the other in the spiritual world (heavenly) We live in the physical, we relate in the physical, so God uses what we know to teach us about..... .....the spiritual. We have to ask ourselves when looking at the worldly Old Testament stories..."how is God using the physical to teach us about our spiritual life?"
  17. Your mercy may be what causes a change in their heart that leads them to salvation. That's the ultimate goal in loving your enemy. It's completely other centered. All about them Now that's a love that surpasses understanding! If you look at the whole story in Matthew 18 you'll see that's exactly what the master is doing, however, the servant wasn't truly repentant and accepting the forgiveness (obvious by his actions) and the master knew it. In the end, his using the master for material gain didn't work out too well.
  18. God would not tell us to do something that He can't or won't do himself. I think you have to look at what your definition of love is. What does the bible say about love 1Co 13:4 Love is always patient; love is always kind; love is never envious or arrogant with pride. Nor is she conceited, 1Co 13:5 and she is never rude; she never thinks just of herself or ever gets annoyed. She never is resentful; 1Co 13:6 is never glad with sin; she's always glad to side with truth, and pleased that truth will win. 1Co 13:7 She bears up under everything; believes the best in all; there is no limit to her hope, and never will she fall. 1Co 13:8 Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with. This isn't the gooshee "I love you man" kind of love, this is a love that takes an effort. The love most people think of is like when you fall in love. That's different from the love we see God exemplifying. We easily confuse like and love and think they operate the same way, however, you either like someone or you don't, that's not something you can work at to change. But love, we can work at love. Something else to keep in mind is that you can love as the bible describes it EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMEONE. This is the kind of love God has.....even for His enemies. His love is so great that he died for all our sins...all people, all sin. Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption. .........Heb 9:28 so the Messiah was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. The question is not IF God will forgive!!! ALL sin has been forgiven, but like many have already said on this post, we have to realize we are sinners, need forgiveness, hear the gospel (the good news) that it has already been forgiven and then with a repenting heart wanting to change, simply accept the gift. The problem with Satan, and many people, is that they are too proud to admit they have done wrong of their own accord. They'll either try to blame others, justify themselves or deny they need the forgiveness of another (God). As a result of not ACCEPTING the forgiveness freely offered they are in effect as though they were unforgiven
  19. Jesus (as THE SON) said he does not speak on his own but only as instructed by the FATHER Joh 14:10 You believe, don't you, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own. It is the Father who dwells in me and who carries out his work. Joh 14:28 You have heard me tell you, 'I am going away, but I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. We are seeing here how "GOD" works. The communication of the Fathers will is perfectly given, through the HOLY SPIRIT to the Son who works in the physical to do the perfect will of the Father on earth as it is in heaven. There are many verses in John's gospel that indicate the work of the Holy Spirit but I have found Paul's description in 1 Corinthians revealing. 1Co 2:10 But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. 1Co 2:11 Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except his own inner spirit? In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit. Clearly the HOLY SPIRIT and the THOUGHTS of God are 2 different parts within God. If we know that the SON is a part of the Trinity and the HOLY SPIRIT is a part of the Trinity. What must the "thoughts" be? They can only be the FATHER. With that in mind both of the verses above from John show us how God is made up of these 3 different but perfectly intertwined parts that must all work together to manifest anything in the physical world. Here's what I think is incredible....when we accept Christ and become SONS OF GOD we now have the Holy Spirit connecting us directly to the "thoughts of God"...to the Father. We are to be as Jesus in the world. It gives a whole new understanding to Mat 18:20 because where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them." We relate spiritually, one on one, directly with the Father through the Holy Spirit...there is nothing physical involved, but when the Father wants to work in the physical such as when we relate with each other at work etc, we have to create in the physical to do that, we therefore take on the same work as THE SON Col 1:16 For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him. That's how Jesus is there among us......big responsibility
  20. I think you are closer to understanding the trinity than most people Miss Muffet has posted a diagram that I often see. I think it needs to be drawn differently to better understand the Trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up God. God is not some 4th entity but is the 3 of them together. I think this diagram is actually misleading because it appears that God is a 4th entity separate from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God should not be at the center. There is no God and then also the Father, Son and Holy Spirit Instead there should be a circle that encompasses all 3 and it should be labeled God. Then we would see that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up God.
  21. Here's my thought: It wasn't perfect. A perfect relationship with God requires that we choose to have it. In order to have a choice there must be options, so God introduced an option. We always had and always will have a free will to choose, but if the option is not there we are not able to choose something else. Something to think about when we consider the devil being put away during the millennial reign (only to be released and offer an "option" again later) Something to think about when we consider the devil being destroyed.......we'll still have our free will after choosing to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, but that temptation that we first see giving an "option" in the garden.....will not exist. It will have served its purpose.
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