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Fran C

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About Fran C

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    Advanced Member

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  • Gender
    Female
  • Location
    Italy
  • Interests
    Too many to list.
    I love good movies.
    Music.
    Travel.
    Bible study.
    Bike riding.
    Mountain hiking.
    Photography.
    Good food...etc.

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  1. Both you and @Alive are telling me very nice things about what YOU believe. What you believe must be backed up by scripture and neither of you are offering any. How does marriage prove anything? There's divorce nowadays...and even before that persons left each other. Even Moses gave certificates of divorce. Where in the N.T. does it state that one is saved forever without any condition? I can't think of one place and I can think of many places where it states that salvation is conditional. What do the two following verses mean to you? 1 John 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father. 1 Cor. 9:27 "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." If we do not remain in the Son and the Father, are we still saved? Is this not a condition? In 1 Cor Paul is worried about being disqualified ---- can we also not be disqualified if HE can?
  2. Agreed. Except we don't agree on eternal security,,,but, I guess, if we're living the new life it's OK what we believe. I just DO worry about those that are not and think they're saved anyway. Not much more to say.
  3. Hey Alive... Been away... I agree that sanctification is an on-going process. We persevere if we will to and with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells with us. As to being in a camp...unless one is a 5 point calvinist or a traditional catholic...I can't think of any group that agrees totally with any other group, or even within any one group, and so I'd agree that it's difficult to be placed in a camp, and there's no real reason for anyone to do this except sometimes it's easier to talk.
  4. I think you've hit the nail on the head! We are not to take our salvation for granted. Jesus Himself has stated this. He tells us to hear His word and ACT upon them...this is the person that builds his house on the rock and when the rains come the house is safe. Those who do NOT act on His words will be a foolish man who built his house on the sand. This is what I mean by a false sense of security. Some believe that hearing the words alone will save them...but God has always demanded obedience and Jesus, as our example, always did as the Father asked --- even unto death. Paul tells us to examine our faith... 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? The above verse clearly states that we could fail the test.
  5. Wait. You believe repentance takes place AFTER we are placed in Christ? So you're a reformed believer? If so, this conversation becomes useless due to perseverance of the saints which is considered by you to be a total work of God, and not a work of sanctification.
  6. First, I'll say that, Yes, I've considered every aspect of the N.T. teachings. I left the Catholic church many years ago and HAD to study on my own and come to a conclusion as to what was biblical. I also must say that the church did not believe in eternal security until Luther/Calvin etc. The early church theologians, or Fathers, did NOT believe in eternal security. We could say that they were not inspired, as I hear often, however, neither was Luther or Calvin inspired and the Early Church Fathers learned from the Apostles themselves - so, apparently, the Apostles did NOT believe in eternal security. As to Sonship...we needn't use our personal experience for biblical lessons, it would seem that Jesus hit on every possible subject. In Luke 15 Jesus speaks of 3 types of lost persons. In the first story He tells of a lost sheep -- the shepherd goes after the lost sheep to find it and save it and bring it back to the fold. In another story He tells of a lost coin,,,which represents a lost person, and when the woman finds the lost coin, she is overwhelmed with joy and calls her friends to tell them - Jesus likens this to heaven rejoicing when one sinner repents. In the third story Jesus tells the story of the Prodigal Son. It is the son that leaves the household. The son asks for his inheritance...since he's the older son, his inheritance is 2/3, not 1/2. When he leaves he has already received his inheritance and will be given no more. In this case, it's the son that realizes the big mistake he has made and he decides to return home. In verse 24 we read that this lost son has come to live AGAIN...which means the son was saved, lost, saved again - when he returned home because God is always waiting for us with open arms. I've considered everything very well and OSAS gives a false sense of security to many - I posted Matthew 5:13...what could be clearer than this? What are we to make of all the verses I've posted that show salvation can be lost by abandoning our God and Savior. You haven't exegeted or explained any of the verses in any way...have you considered all the possibilities presented by Jesus? I fail to understand why this is such an unacceptable consideration. Jesus Himself did not teach OSAS or eternal security. Matthew 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men."
  7. Agreed. All good. Very good analogy about the tree and the roots. Jesus spoke a lot about this because of the agricultural society. He said HE was the vine, WE are the branches...He did speak (and also Paul) about the branches being cut off if we DO NOT REMAIN in Him...but you don't make this a part of your big picture --- The big picture does have a lot of detail to it. You could not get to salvation on your own because it's a free gift from God given to you through your faith, by His love and grace and desire to save everyone as spoken of in 1 Timothy 2:4 that tells us God desires all men to be saved. God makes the first move and reveals Himself to us,,,Romans 1:19-20 and then it's up to us to reply...Acts 16:30-31 I've listed several passages that clearly show how we could abandon our faith...2 Timothy 2:12 also states that if we endure we shall reign with Him, IF we DENY Him, He also will deny us...it's apparent that the denying comes after salvation if we do not endure. Hebrews could be debated...some of Hebrews was written to unbelievers, or those who could not decide for Christ and wanted to stay with the Old Law or Covenant. The other verses I posted could really not be debated unless we twist what they mean. Let me ask you this: What do we say to those that believe they are saved and believe they cannot lose their salvation (by their own doing) and yet do not live as a regenerated person should because they are convinced they are safe? You may say it's not our concern,,,but I took a year of discipleship and feel a little responsible for everyone I come into contact with - regarding their salvation. To me, understanding that we must continue in our faith is pivotal to our eternal salvation. Regarding Jacob Paul....you made him and he is YOU. When we were born we were no longer of God..we lost that privilege in the Garden. We are born lost and must come to God...and in the same way, we could walk away from Him --- but I DO understand your point about sonship. Blessings to you too.
  8. Hey A...I need to leave. I never sign off, but I won't be here. Late here and you wrote a lot ....Let's leave this for tomorrow morning so I could respond in detail. 'Night.
  9. Hi Steve, If you're a moderator, of course I'll ingest what you've said and will make an effort to comply. I don't really understand what's personal about what you've highlighted, but OK. I also do not like to argue. Maybe if you read a real bible, you'd understand it's message better instead of understanding what YOU care to believe due to the translation of what you're reading??? (I just couldn't understand what the other member was reading, as I stated in my reply to him. It sure didn't sound like a normal bible) Thanks for the advice.
  10. I don't know who you are... and the above is not an attack and was not taken as such from the other member, with whom I'm having a very nice and civil conversation. We were discussing bible versions and how this could affect the understanding a person might get. How is that a personal attack? THIS is a personal attack: "I think you're dumb for reading such a terrible bible version". I debate SUBJECTS,,,not personal matters.
  11. This is what I used to think! I agree whole-heartedly with you. We can sin,,,but we cannot really remain IN SIN.... 1 John 1:9 We confess our sins and are forgiven. 1 John 3:9 No one born again PRACTICES sin (or lives a life of sin). UNTIL....as another member on this forum can testify: One poster stated clearly that he could blaspheme the Holy Spirit and still be saved. So, apparently we can agree that anyone who can say that probably is not saved (although that is not for us to judge) but he THINKS he is because of the eternal security doctrine and the fact that he walked down an isle of some church at some time and so, mistakenly, believes he is saved. I find this to be a terrible state of affairs in the church. I agree that the Father will not ever leave us or forsake us... but I DO believe that we can walk away from salvation. How else would you explain scripture such as 2 Peter 2:20-22, Luke 8:13, and so many more. Jesus Himself states in Mathew 5:13 that IF we lose our taste of saltiness we become useful for nothing but to be thrown out and tramped upon. How do we doubt what Jesus states? I don't think you mean loss of inheritance,,,I think you mean loss of rewards Oops! You were speaking about rewards. Rewards are spoken of in the N.T. What are some verses that speak to this? Perhaps the reward is heaven?
  12. I also read different versions of the bible. This usually clears up any questions I have...although I do have a couple of unimportant beliefs I'm not very sure about and probably will never be since I've been studying the word a very long time. I'm not a fan of commentaries because they tend to obscure the mind. I only use them for very difficult passages. of which there are not many...or I ask someone that could know; I have a couple of good sources...biblical scholars and/or theologians I know personally and read Hebrew and Koine Greek of course. I think my previous post makes my position very clear. I believe in eternal security but with a condition: that we REMAIN IN CHRIST...as is taught in the N.T. and as you yourself have stated. Being IN CHRIST means being saved securely.
  13. I happen to agree with you. When I taught our faith to children, I used to do what you did with the note in the bible. One very large envelope with the word GOD, one medium envelope with the word JESUS and one small envelope with the child's name. The envelope with the child's name went into the envelope with JESUS and then both in GOD. The concept is well known. I don't say that if someone believes in eternal security they don't know the word of God...this is the doctrine they believe and even though I do not agree with it since the early church did NOT believe in this doctrine, I still think one could love God and serve Him and remain in Him forever. What does bother me somewhat is persons that hang on to one verse, as another member here does, and does not even understand the point I'm making, and it becomes impossible to have an intelligent conversation. Some believe that once they are saved, they can do no wrong, nothing is required of them, and they will be saved forever - even if they return to a life of sin. This is WRONG and is not biblical. Belief in eternal security could lead to this state and then I can say, as the bible teaches, that the person's soul would be in danger of loss of salvation. I think this is a very incorrect doctrine. I don't think you're one of those persons from how you write,,,but I've met many that say they could live how they want to and still be saved. Would you agree with me that this is incorrect?
  14. You said a whole bunch of words I can't understand.... Something about parallel, etc. Are you reading a parallel bible? IOW, if I wanted to check what you posted,,,could you give me the book, chapter and verse? This is how I read the bible in order to understand it better.
  15. You post nice verses,,,but what do they mean to you? Colossians 3:1, which YOU have posted, tells us to keep seeking the things from above. To hear some persons that are saved...THEY themselves need to seek nothing at all and they seem to feel that God has done everything for them. The entire N.T. needs to be read,,,not just the verse someone may like because they SEEM to match with their belief system.
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