Limey_Bob

I am interested in your claim that the Holy Spirit is a force, would you please explain four verses to me. Firstly, at Acts 13:2 the Holy Spirit can speak and say "I" (first person singular). Please explain how a mere force can do this, only persons can say "I." Secondly, the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Isaiah 63:10), but can a force such as electricity be grieved? Thirdly, the Holy Spirit can love (Romans 15:30), but can a force such as electricity love someone other than him or herself? Finally, the Holy Spirit is called "He" seven times at John 16:13-14, why? And why doesn't the text refer to the Holy Spirit as "it?"

Shiloh357 again uses the term "separate" see the first line: "We have the Holy Spirit separate from God the Father hovering over the face of the deep in Gen. 1:2." This is completely unbiblical and contrary to all of the ancient creeds and doctrinal statements of faith, which all teach that the Holy Spirit is DISTINCT from the Father (not separate). It was my coming to the realisation in 2010 that the vast majority of evangelical church leaders in my part of the UK, within churches which call themselves Trinitarian, are in reality functionally really just modalists or tritheists who call themselves (inaccurately) Trinitarians, which caused me to leave organised religion, that plus the inability to accurately define and preach the gospel and the widespread fornication and sexual sin by so many church leaders in my part of the UK, all of which is simply covered up by these and other church leaders.

Your definition of the Trinity in the first line of your conclusion as "three separate persons" is actually Tritheism, the creeds all define the persons are distinct and NOT separate (see the 4th point of the Athanasian creed). But you make my point, evangelicalism today is aggressively anti-Trinitarian. Many evangelical Churches will claim to be Trinitarian, and might even have a fairly decent Trinitarian doctrinal statement of faith up on their web site, but in practice as shiloh357 has demonstrated, when you speak to these people, they cannot define the Trinity accurately and always seem to end up misdefining the Trinity as tri-theism as Shiloh357 has done, or else the other popular misdefinion of the Trinity is as modalism.

The first and most important thing, isn't to offer proofs for the Trinity, but to accurately and fairly define what the Trinity is according to the ancient creeds and doctrinal statements such as the Westminster Confession of faith, only then is the Trinity to be examined in the light of scripture. Sadly, I've come across very few evangelicals in my part of the UK (Plymouth Devon) who are genuine Trinitarians, many people who attend so-called "Trinitarian" churches, whom I've spoken to, are actually modalists who've told me that Jesus is God the Father, or else they are tri-theists (God is three separate Gods or 2 separate persons denying the 4th point of the Athanasian creed), another popular belief within evangelicalism today is Apollinarianism - which is the false claim that Christ only possessed (and still possesses) one single spirit (not two). I left the church in 2010 and the Trinity was a huge factor in my decision to turn my back on what calls itself evangelical Christianity.

You didn't, I was referring to my own experiences here in the UK where any evangelical Church members with a Trinitarian doctrinal statement of faith on their website, when asked, will often misdefine the Trinity as either three separate gods / three spirits or else as Jesus being God the Father.

The word for "greater" at John 14:28 is mezion and it means ranks / position / status. It does not mean better than which would be the world "plion" as in "behold a greater (PLION) than Jonah is here." (Matthew 12:41).

Great post, however, you assume that Trinitarian Churches (such as Baptist, Assemblies of God, and Elim Pentecostal) are Trinitarian and are therefore preaching the true gospel, just because such groups often put a Biblically accurate Trinitarian doctrinal statement of faith up onto their web site and into their Church doctrinal statement of faith. I live in Plymouth in the UK, and whatever the situation is the US, or in Asia or South America, here in the UK, many people who attend evangelical type churches are modalists who have affirmed to be over and over again that Jesus is God the Father, or else many are tri-theists. I left Church in 2010, and I no longer attend anywhere, partly due to the numerous sexual scandals which I had discovered within several local fellowships, but even more so because of the constant anti-Trinitarianism within so many nominally Trinitarian Churches (I also encountered Apollinarianism and Tri-theism frequently). So I no longer regard most church people as genuine and true Christians, some are of course, but I have encountered such hatred, such viciousness, and such spitefulness from so-called evangelical Christians, that I would personally believe that very little of it is genuinely of God. I also see people 5 to 10 years down the road after they've left their church experience, and the number of lives which I've seen destroyed by these religious people is astounding. Several people, not just myself, recall incidents of themselves as lay people, discovering fornication by Church leaders and when the matter is raised, they the lay people, are either thrown out of the church, or else they are made so uncomfortable that the constant cold-shoulder and backbiting within fellowships, drives them out. I see more love, more mercy, more kindness in some atheists and skeptics than I see in many church attending evangelical Christians. Thank goodness I'm out of it and now I follow Christ, and Christ alone, rather than some corrupt preacher who is too ignorant even to know what the Trinity is.

Most people in the UPCI cannot define what the Trinity even is frankly few evangelicals can either, so the issue comes down to are you in my little group or in some other little group, as salvation is associated with being in my silly little group (a non-Biblical concept as true Biblical salvation isn't down to or related to attending some building or religious fellowship).

Some of them used to believe this, way back in the third and fourth centuries. However modern oneness has no difficulty explaining the baptism of Jesus and other similar passages as simultaneous manifestations of the one God in three ways. Most of all these people are highly skill in playing endless word games with Trinitarians, they say one thing such as saying "Jesus is God" which sounds biblical, but in reality they are merely affirming the deity of God the Father whom they call Jesus, however they deny both the deity and the Son of God possessing divine attributes. I have 99 videos, including many debates exposing this cult in the Oneness playlist section of my YouTube channel which is called: "Christian Comedy Channel."

Wars are won or lost inside of people's heads; how we think, for what we believe effect our future actions and how we think is the motivation and the strength of commitment, which we also have to our physically fighting our enemies. Sadly, due to the influence of Cultural Marxism (known as Political Correctness), here in the UK, most people have no overriding life aims or purposes, and have never taken the trouble to think anything through, most people are brain dead and never think outside the Politically Correct box. Sadly, Islam will take over the UK and much of Europe, as they are passionate for their (ridiculous and false) beliefs, but with so many native Europeans never having thought anything through, and being too cowardly to take a stand on anything of a moral nature, other than their never challenging the Cultural Marxist lies (such as Islam being a religion of peace). No matter our technological superiority, as a society we are doomed in the long run, and we are certain in the end over 30-40-50 years to eventually lose any war against Islam due to the enemy within. So why join the UK military forces today and fight against ISIS, when in 30-40-50 years time the Muslims will run this country and will punish all those soldiers who once fought in the past against Islam (unless they convert to Islam, which is the obvious destination for many of the Royals and ruling elites when they see the writing on the wall). British politicians have a reputation for selling out to our enemies, and punishing our own soldiers (i.e the sell out to the IRA and the recent prosecution of British soldiers for past actions, whilst the British government has given amnesty to former IRA terrorists). Also why would I as a non-gay white man, wish to fight for the UK in any future war, when under British law I am currently a second class citizen to a political alliance of gays, lesbians, Muslims and leftist feminists, who under the law, in court and in daily activities are always going to be preferred to me. Why should I risk or give my life for a nation which desires to make me a second class citizen under the law? Poligamy is a crime in the UK, and I'd go to prison for that - unless I converted to Islam. Feminists and women are not equal under the law, the british courts always favour women over men, so why would i want to fight for a country to maintain that injustice? etc.

Hello saved by Grace, I am currently going through Kim Riddleberger's series on eschatology (A-Millennialism), which is excellent. Like you I also like expository teaching, and for that I tend to listen to sermons by James White, as well as his debates and a mutilpicity of sermons by former members of various cults, I myself used to be in the Apostolic Oneness movement (Jesus Only) in the late 1980s. Thank you for your wise comments regarding your wife and yourself balancing each other out, yes, that makes alot of sense, thank you for the advice.

You can get free mp3 sermons online, some of which are brilliant. With such great teaching available freely, why on earth do I need to go to some building and listen to an uneducated pastor billy-bob preaching his usual drivel. Many people are leaving the institutional church, and if they want good teaching, you can get far better free Bible sermons online than in some local church run by the Biblically illiterate, who'll then demand 10% of your income.

Before he wrote Dianetics, Hubbard was a practicing satanist and the deputy leader of the satanic OTO (founded by the satanist Alistair Crowley) at the Pasadena branch, under the rocket scientist Jack Parsons. They fell out over a large sum of money ($20,000), Hubbard left and decided to found his own religion, so that he could then have full control, as well as access to all the money.

Here in Plymouth in the UK, many evangelicals who attend churches with firm Trinitarian doctrinal statements of faith on their web sites, are themselves non-Trinitarian; usually modalists who claim that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Or else they are tri-theists who'll claim that God is three separate persons or separate beings each with his own mind, will, even essence etc. So sadly, most evangelicals simply do not understand the Trinity, and give non-Trinitarian definitions of the Trinity, or unbiblical views about the person of Christ; such as that he has only one spirit (Apollinarianism) or that he is the Father (Modalism) or I was even told at Plymouth Christian Center, which is Plymouth's largest church on their 2012 Alpha course that Christ did not make a full atonement on the cross, he went to hell after dying on the cross and I was told that he then offered a sacrifice to Satan where the atonement was complete. The influence of GOD TV and vile American TV preachers who also have unbiblical views of the Trinity, as well as teaching both compulsory tithing and signs and wonders (miracles) has been truly horrific. Many people, such as myself have simply walked out of "church" never to return, as they (I ) realize that much evangelicalism is focused upon subjective, touchy-feely feelings and bears more in common with ancient Gnosticism than with creedal Christianity. When Christians were martyred for their faith in the first three centuries, they died defending objective, literal and real facts; such as Christ's literal and physical bodily resurrection, or that Christ was both fully God and fully man, or his literal, personal and physical imminent second coming. Most of today's evangelicals, here in Plymouth and in the South-West of the UK have completely abandoned facts, evidence or proof, and their evangelical religion is feminized mush of hyper-emotions and their own subjective (often mystical) feelings, which they get hyped up by loud pop music every Sunday morning when they sing songs reminiscent of "Jesus is my boyfriend music" which even the few weak beta-males who haven't yet abandoned the fellowship completely to the dominant women seem to enjoy singing. One has to shake your head with sadness, thinking of the ancient martyrs in the arena being asked by the Roman soldiers: "Are you willing to die for your faith?" Only to then hear the reply: "Yes, I get warm feelings in my tummy, whenever I sing the "Jesus is my boyfriend music" every Sunday, and so yes, I will never deny my own subjective mystical feelings, as what I think and how I feel is a million times more important to me than telling people truthful objective facts about Jesus, so yes, go ahead crucify me, I will gladly die testifying to the Lordship in my own life, of my own subjective feelings over all and any objective truth." Oh my, is it any wonder why Christianity is dying here in the UK and the Muslims (who reject post-modern feelings, and instead teach lies as objective facts), knowing full well that 99% of the weak feminized and cowardly Christians will never challenge them or their claimed factual statements about Christ (which are actually lies such as he did not die on a cross and he was only a prophet but not God and man)!

So what is your point JohnD, it's annoying when people post many scriptures without any comment? So if Isaiah 44:24 states that only Yahweh God alone is the creator (and it does), and if 1st Corinthians 8:6 states (and it does) that creation is out of (ek) the Father and then through (di) the Son, then as both the Father and Son are both active in creation, that means that both the Father and Son must be the one single Yahweh who is the one God of the Bible.

Hello JohnD, thank you for your prompt reply. Obviously I would agree with you that the creeds are not perfect, however, I haven't seen anything superior and better than the creedal definition of God. Sadly, you've illustrated my point that many evangelicals are especially weak on the Trinity. In Trinitarian thought, Father, Son and Holy Spirit always work together (in slightly different ways) in all things such as creation and redemption. So your comment that God the Father did not create the heavens is inaccurate, as both the Bible and the creeds state that he did. Look for instance at 1st Corinthians 8:6, where creation is (ek = out of) the Father and then (di = through) the Son, so Father and Son are both active in creation, but not in exactly the same way. The Father alone is the source of the creation, but he then creates THROUGH the Son, elsewhere Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit also creating (Job 33:4), so creation is said to be in the power of the Holy Spirit. So yes you are correct that Yahweh God, mentioned at Isaiah 44:24 created the universe all alone. However, Yahweh God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so the one single creator of the Universe is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. regards robert

John, thank you for this insightful post. Do you believe, as I do, that what calls itself: "evangelical" or "born again" is now gradually, to a greater extent, basically anti-Trinitarianism (which will often call itself the Trinity), but with modalism or tri-theism, being at the real core of it's essential doctrines. Not holding to the Trinity (as defined in the creeds), these people often have highly erroneous views about the person and work of Christ, such as Jesus only has one spirit the divine spirit (Apollinarianism) and Christ's atonement was completed in hell, not finished at the cross (JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually heresy). Finally, getting these two wrong, naturally they come up with unorthodox versions of the gospel, most of which add works (often in the form of compulsory tithing) to grace. Frankly, here in the UK, many churches are now doctrinally very little different than the cults, in fact the cults are often more honest that evangelicals, as the cults are often open and honest about their anti-Trinitarianism, whilst evangelicals will often have a fairly Biblical statement of faith on their web site, which sounds great, but which the church leaders then simply ignore as being "led by the spirit" they make stuff up on the hoof.

Almost all evangelicals whom I meet here in Plymouth in the UK, simply make up their theology on the hoof as you dialogue with them. With regard to the nature of God; misdefining God as either tri-theism (three separate Gods / three separate beings or persons) or modalism (Jesus is God the Father and holy Spirit), are the most common. With regard to the person and work of Christ, it's amazing just how many people are influenced by GOD TV and the claim made by many of their preachers that Christ's atonement was made in hell (to satan)! Obviously if they get the Trinity wrong, then wacky and weird views about Christ's person predominate, but possibly the most common (other than Jesus being the Father), is the false claim that Christ only had one spirit, his divine spirit and so he did not possess a second human spirit (Apollinarianism). Finally, as so many evangelicals today get the Trinity and Christ wrong, obviously this has a knock on effect on the gospel, which most today cannot define. Rather than focus upon facts and evidence such as Christ's literal and physical resurrection from the dead (1st Corinthians 15:4), instead the focus has shifted from telling people facts about Jesus (which people willingly died for in the arena under the Roman rulers), to telling people instead their own woolly, cuddly subjective feelings about their religion. So what calls itself Christianity today has moved from being evidence based (when people in the early centuries, willingly died in the arena to defend some fact about Christ), to some modern feminised mystical experience-fest, where facts and evidence can and are going to hell, all that matters is how I feel.

One of the main arguments which Jehovah's Witnesses will claim when they approach you on your own doorstep, is that the divine name (YHWH - popularized as Jehovah, which even they will admit is an incorrect rendering), has been removed from the Bible being substituted with the word "LORD." This substitution was made by the ancient Jewish leaders, in order to prevent the name of God being used in everyday profane speech by God's people, as we hear today on so much television and in the Hollywood films, where the Jewish producers will often include the occasional "Jesus" or "Christ" as a profanity or as a swear word. So returning to the Jehovah's Witnesses, they will claim that it is a sin to remove the sacred name (YHWH) or Jehovah from the text of the Old Testament. However, by comparing Psalm 14:2 in their latest 2013 edition of their NWT (New World Translation) with Psalm 53:2 in the same NWT, we can see that Jehovah himself, has removed YHWH (Jehovah) from the text of Psalm 53:2, substituting it with Elohim (God). So ask the next Jehovah's Witness whom you meet to explain this substitution by Jehovah himself to you?

Yes I can see your point, some people in liberal groups also teach soul sleep. However the chief proponents are the JWs and SDA who together have congregations of well over 10 million. I do regard soul sleep as error, but I would not regard people who hold to only that error alone as heretics, soul sleep is a hetraodox belief, it's wrong, but I don't believe that holding to just that belief is evidence that the person is unsaved.

Yes, good point, the Jehovah's Witnesses as well as the Seventh Day Adventists both have common roots in William Miller's Adventist movement and both teach the error of Soul Sleep.

Revelation 14:13. Soul Sleep. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach "soul sleep" i.e. that a person ceases to exist at the point of death, until their recreated by Jehovah God on the paradise earth. That being so, why the dead said to be "happy" when they have no existence? However even their own (false) Bible reads at Revelation 14:13: "Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward."

I see, so demons lurk under every stone, and no doubt if we send our $1,000 vow of faith to some charismatic TV preacher, then he'll send you by the postal services a 50 cent pray cloth which he has personally prayed over will stop all demonic attacks. Look, evangelical Christianity is making a laughing stock of itself on Christian TV, I personally want nothing to do with such obvious deception by money grabbing televangelists. Satan was so defeated at the cross, that today, he is now limited just like a dog on a long metal chain which has been chained to the ground to a secure metal stake. If you avoid the dog, by staying out of the range of the chain, then the chain prevents the dog from attacking you, it can bark but not bite, but if you decide to go within the range of the dog and stand right next to it, then by your decision he can attack you. i.e. if you decide to play with the Ouija board or dabble in the occult, then satan can attack you today. However, the idea that demons lurk under every stone, and that satan causes your back problem is just typically silly evangelical nonsense.

Yes onelight, DEFEATED at the cross, thank you for the wise correction.

Satan was bound at the cross, although demons still exist today, their influence is nothing like in Jesus' day and so most illnesses today are caused by medical issues not by demons.