BobRyan

I don't know of any text that says the lost are "under grace" and "joined to Chris"

It is God who informs us that "He came to His OWN and His own received Him not" John 1:11 It is God who informs us "O Jerusalem... how I Wanted to spare your children.. but you would not" Matt 23 It is God who informs us that Jesus wept over Jerusalem "IF only you had known the time of your visition..." Luke 19:42 , even though "The Time is fulfilled" was Jesus' message in Mark 1 at the start of his ministry. It is God who informs us of His own lament in Is 5:4 when things have gone terribly wrong "what more could I have done than that which I have already done". It is God who says in 2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance"

And every question that finds an answer is that much more understanding of the Word of God that one can have. John 14 "I am the way the Truth and the life" knowing more about the Truth is never a bad thing.

We can all position it anyway we like to favor any particular POV. The details I have been pointing to - are the details in scripture itself - where it appears to only work one way. Not both ways. In the Bible we have "Jesus is God" in John 1:1 and we have "the Father is greater than I am" John 14:28. Some camp out on John 14:28 to reject the Trinity - but the only way for John 1:1 and John 14:28 to both be true is that the Trinity doctrine is true. By just looking at one slice of the info and taking an "either-or" approach ignoring that which does not favor a POV - almost anything can be had. But taking "all the points" together then one larger picture is seen.

Regardless of the reason one is said to "fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ" - the point in respect to OSAS - is that instead of being impossible - that "severed from Christ" state is very much possible. One who was under Grace and joined to Christ - can then be "fallen from Grace" and "severed from Christ". Your argument would only work if you were claiming "OSAS is the case except for those saved saints joined to Christ, and under grace who at some point turn to their own works as their gospel and then at that point they lose their salvation". Somehow I get the impression that - that is not your point yet you post as if it is. I find that curious.

The problem with that idea of retro-deleting present assurance if it turns out that ten years from today - you fall away -- is that you cannot actually have assurance until you see that ten years from today you do not fall away. The "forgiveness revoked" Matt 18 teaching of Christ applies because it is real. The "fallen from grace, severed from Christ" teaching of Paul Gal 5:1-4 applies because it is real. The warnings in Rom 2:4-7, Heb 3:6,14, and Matt 13 stony ground illustration of Christ apply - because the problem is real.

John 10 is about "someone else" taking them away - it is not about them no longer having the free will to leave if they so choose. "He came to His OWN and His own received Him not" John 1:11 "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" followed by why then this failed result? Isaiah 5:4 "the IF" you persevere statements in Hebrews 3:6,14 could not even exist if perseverance were "a given", or as in your post "not even required". Matt 18 ends with Christ's teaching on "forgiveness revoked". Romans 11 teaching on salvation revoked : "20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again." Gal 5:1-4 - "you have been severed from Christ, fallen from grace"

Christians follow the teaching of Christ. In Matt 28 the final commission is "9 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” The Gospel writers are teaching us what Christ commanded them... we are Christians. So yes - the teaching of Christ is very much priority one. Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel Gal 3:8 - that Gospel was preached to Abraham Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah stand with Christ ... IN glory... BEFORE the Cross! Because Jesus is the Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world in the sight of God who sees those things that are not as though they are. He is not limited by time and sequence. One Gospel in all of time... not one for Jews and another one for everyone else

The argument that "the treasure is the masters" - is a focus on a detail in a parable where the parable is figurative. By pointing to that detail you are admiting that in literal teaching these details matter - however as they say in a parable "you cannot make a parable walk on all fours". So I agree it has a limit. But as in the case with all of Christ's parables the conclusion is literal. In Luke 16 the rich man and Lazarus - the conclusion is "if they do not listen to Moses they will not listen though one rises from the dead". In Matt 18 and the unforgiving servant - "so shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother" and the "so shall" is a reference to "forgiveness revoked". In the case of the unforgiving servant the conclusion is that the servant is cast into outer darkness - where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth as we see in Matt 13 Matthew 13:42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I agree that all start out saved in His parable -- but I would point out that eschatology deals with salvation since it includes who ultimately goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

In Jesus' teaching it was far worse than "the money had no value for you" - it is this... "28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

I agree that many groups do not go along with what we find in 1 Cor 14 A. Notice that the text holds the reader responsible for content: 6 But now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophecy, or of teaching?...9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church. B. It is specifically a sign to unbelievers - to reach non-Christians. 22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. C. notice that "the gift does not work" when the listener does not understand the meaning of the words spoken or if those words are not clear to the listener. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? The abuse of the gift (in the example in vs 23 the abuse is everyone speaking at once or in the case of vs 11 speaking something that the unbeliever cannot understand ) results in the unbeliever not being reached at all.

Yes - they mean what they say. It would be cruel to warn about something that is not possible. Like warning someone not to flap their arms so fast that they would fly into outer space and run out of oxygen. That sort of warning is no what scripture engages in.. not even a little. 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.Romans 11 makes it clear "you stand only by your faith" for the saved. Gal 5 speaks of those who have been "severed from Christ, fallen from Grace". Matt 13 warns of the stony ground that accepts the Gospel with great joy, springs to life and then later dies away. John 15 warns of "branches IN ME" -- in Christ - that do not produce fruit and then are cut off and cast into the fire.

First of all - 1 Cor 14 "is Biblical". - the entire chapter. Secondly - in both Acts 2 and 1Cor 14 the supernatural gift of tongues - is always a known human language and the person speaking is always in charge of the content and the timing -- not the Holy Spirit. This gift is a sign to unbelievers not to believers. The Holy Spirit gives the gift - but does not specify content. By contrast in the case of the gift of prophecy spoken of in 1Cor 12 and also 1Cor 14 - the Holy Spirit is in charge of the content -- and this gift is not a sign to unbelievers.

Where then is the difference on this topic in respect to the Bible scholarship in almost all major Christian denominations? Differences are in how that 4th commandment can or cannot be edited over time. So then these texts come up in that discussion - Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" gospel preaching to both Jews and gentiles Acts 13 - gentiles ask for more Gospel preaching "the next Sabbath" Acts 15 - the argument that within the Christian context "Moses is read every Sabbath" Acts 15:21 and this is key to solving the disputed within the Christian community of whether Gentiles had to become Jews to be saved.

The Ark of the Covenant had in it - the Ten Commandments. And that included the command "do not take God's name in vain". Given the statement in the OP - that the earthly sanctuary was a shadow of the heavenly - one should argue that we no longer avoid taking God's name in vain since that was "just a shadow". I think we all see the problem with that logic. Eph 6:1-2 says the command "honor your father and mother" is the first commandment with a promise. That is only true in the context of "the unit of Ten". 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" is another example of Paul affirming the Ten. James 2 "he who is guilty of breaking one of them - is guilty of breaking all of them" -- which included the Ten. The Ten (all Ten) are included in the "Law of God written on the heart and mind" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 which is quoted verbatim and unchanged in the New Testament in Heb 8:6-12 So that means that these examples given below would agree with the Saturday-Sabbath groups like Seventh-day Adventist, Seventh-day Baptists, Messianic Jews etc. The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 The Westminster Confession of Faith - Section 19 C.H. Spurgeon Martin Luther The Roman Catholic Church D.L. Moody Eastern Orthodox (many others) ============================================= What is interesting is that at this point all of the statements above are agreed to by Bible scholarship on BOTH sides of the Sabbath saturday/sunday debate in almost all major Christian denominations. In other words that is what they would term "the easy part" of the discussion where the Bible details are so obvious that both sides admit to them.

There are over 1150 New Testament Commands.. Just what exactly is "God's Limit"?? Impossible to "Be your own Savior" that is true. But Romans 8:4-9 says it is only the lost who "do not submit to the LAW of God --neither indeed CAN they" Because for the saved under the NEW Covenant - the LAW of God "is written on the heart and mind" - Jeremiah 31:31-33 The gospel is not a story about getting Christians to take God's name in vain - and then feel good about it. And I think we all know that much.

How true. "not taking God's name in vain" -- is this "salvation by works"?? -- no! "Honoring Parents" -- is this "salvation by works"?? -- no! Bottom line... God's Word is not evil.

Well it is better to actually read the Bible in context than to wrench a tiny snip as in the case above. Numbers 28 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Command the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be careful to present My offering, My food for My offerings by fire, of a soothing aroma to Me, at their appointed time.’ 3 You shall say to them, ‘This is the offering by fire which you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs one year old without defect as a continual burnt offering every day. ... so then "don't be a Christian every day unless you want to offer animal sacrifices every day?" -- we know such snip-and-wrench is not correct. 1. Animal sacrifices ended at the cross - Hebrews 10:4-11 2. Earthly priesthood ended at the cross -- Hebrews 7 - 8:5 3. Sabbath begins in Eden BEFORE sin and BEFORE animal sacrifices - Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:11 Mark 2:27-28 4. Sabbath to be kept by all mankind in the New Earth -- for all eternity after the cross.. no animal sacrifices - Isaiah 66:23 5. Sabbath was for gentiles EVEN in the OT - Isaiah 56:5-8 6. Saints KEEP the Commandments of God Rev 14:12 7. This IS the "Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3 Details matter.

Interesting speculation not sure it will hold up to scripture. Jer 31:31-33 - the "NEW Covenant" -- includes the "LAW of God written on heart and mind" 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" Eph 6:2 Honor your father and mother which is the "first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of TEN BTW -- attack whole denominations.. even this-or-that Sabbath-keeping denomination .. is not the same thing as reconciling an anti-Commandment-of-God theology with the Bible.

Lots of false accusation... easy enough to post

So then why bother with the Bible when Catholic sources are so happy to 'make stuff up'?? That is the "solution"??? Acts 20 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears. Gal 1:6-9 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Col 2 20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. Mark 7 7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ 8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.” 9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.” ==================================================== Among Protestants there is such a thing as "sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice

The problem with that is that both Jews AND gentiles were there and were being evangelized and instead of telling the gentiles "come back tomorrow on the Lord's Day our Christian day of worship" it is continually "next Sabbath" it is continually "Sabbath after Sabbath" and "every Sabbath" in those texts you gave. Rather than getting the believing Gentiles to at least attend a single Sunday service. That is a historic detail in the text that the pro-sunday position does not survive. in your own quote below it is GENTILES asking for more Gospel preaching "next Sabbath" not Jews. Act 13:42 (42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Even in Acts 20 there is no "first day of the week is the Lord's Day" or "we meet every week day 1" rather it is a Saturday evening service and on week-day-1 they plan all-day-travel.

That link says - " The four which have fallen by the wayside are the requirement not to worship idols, use the Lord's name in vain, to worship no other God, and to keep the Sabbath day holy. " Such an "instructive contrast" between what some "Christians FEEL" vs what the Bible actual SAYS. More and more these days "feelings are the new Bible"... does not work out so well according to Christ in Matthew 7

Good point. A lot to be said in favor of that sola-scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice.

This thread is titled "Saturday or Sunday" -- it is about the weekly Sabbath... not yearly feast days. There is only one Bible Sabbath in terms of a weekly day of rest. We see it in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:11 reminds us that it is the same Sabbath that we see in Exodus 20. And in Acts 13, Acts 17:3-5, Acts 18:4-5... it is still the same term for Sabbath.. No change. What is more Isaiah 66:23 says it is that same Exodus 20 Sabbath that will be kept by "all mankind" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth. This is irrefutable.