Kevinb

Well, then we get into a completely different topic. The authority of the Bible. If you wish to discuss this topic, please start a new thread Isn't all of it authority of the bible? Let there be light and day night and this convo stems from creation story and pertinent to the thread.

I can't demonstrate it to you, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. An all-powerful, all-knowing God is a far better and more rational explanation for everything relative to the created order, including gravity and the laws of physics, both of which He created than anything evolutionists can come up with. Doesn't mean its not true I agree. Doesnt mean it is either. Why believe something you can't investigate or demonstrate. Yet you say it's more rational to believe in something you can't demonstrate or investigate..interesting.

God is the source of light and life, even today. We need God because God sustains everything He has made. He keeps the earth spinning on its axis and he keeps the sun and the moon in place and keeps us from getting too, close or too far away from either one. This is just assertion again. Please demonstrate a God doing this.. What evidence? How is he constantly sustaining the moon being there ..how can I check this is the case? He's maintaining the moon earth gap? How can we check he's actively doing and sustaining it today as you said? It's not just gravity and laws of physics?

Yes, the Word of God. "This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all." So the word of God is evidence God is the light? Thanks for the circular reasoning. So how do we prove that? What you said isn't evidence.

Do I trust the bible. Do I trust the Quran. Do I trust the Indian holy book. Do I trust countless other gods that are now largely in the grave of the mythological. Basically I have a level of trust proportional to evidence that can be validated independently of one books assertion. Sadly no claims have ever been validated. Virgin births..people living to 800 years old. God is light or anything else. Just saying God is light and all powerful and he can do anything and has needs to be demonstrated or it's just an argument from authority fallacy. If you don't give anything to corroberate this... why not just believe Mohammed went to heaven on a winged horse. Enoch was 800 plus years old. What mechanism or process or reason do I have to throw out or disprove other religions and accept Christianity. Applying the same scrutiny to all including Christianity.

A little more on prophecy. Not relevant strictly to thread but it's been brought up. There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled: Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred. Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies. Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it has not, it can be said that according to prophecy, it will. Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they have not. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made. Self-fulfillment. A person can act deliberately to satisfy a known prophecy. There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories. In biblical times, prophecies were not simply predictions. They were warnings of what could or would happen if things did not change. They were meant to influence people's behavior. If the people heeded the prophecy, the events would not come to pass; Jonah 3 gives an example. A fulfilled prophecy was a failed prophecy, because it meant people did not heed the warning. The Bible also contains failed prophecies, in the sense that things God said would happen did not. For example: Joshua said that God would, without fail, drive out the Jebusites and Canaanites, among others (Josh. 3:9-10). But those tribes were not driven out (Josh. 15:63, 17:12-13). Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years (29:10-14), and Nebuchadrezzar would plunder it (29:19-20). Neither happened. Other religions claim many fulfilled prophecies, too (Prophecy Fulfilled n.d.). Divinity is not shown by miracles. The Bible itself says true prophecies may come elsewhere than from God (Deut. 13:1-3), as may other miracles (Exod. 7:22, Matt. 4:8). Some people say that to focus on proofs is to miss the whole point of faith (John 20:29).

God is the source of the light on the fourth day. He separated that light from darkness. How did He do that? He is God. God can do things like that. He is..doesnt the bible say the sun and stars were the source of light on day 4? Even though day 1 is says day and night. Also he separated light and darkness? Please demonstrate your corroberative evidence to support the bible claim? We have evidence of an earth spinning on its axis to do this. Or don't you believe that? If you do.. why do you need God on this point? Unless you can demonstrate his involvement?

The LIGHT seperates them. Why do you not trust the Bible? Are we on the same page here? Essentially I'm saying the bible asserts God created day and night on day 1 but stars and the sun on day 4. This conflicts with science. What evidence is there for a day and night days before a sun? Trust the bible? Why don't I just trust the quran or the Hindu religious book or any other creation claims? I'll have a trust proportional to evidence. So how can I check the validity of the bible in this case? Ie the day and night days before a sun? Whats the mechanism to dismiss other religions claims and accept the Christian one? If all i have to accept the day night prior to sun is the bible that's a logical fallacy called an argument from authority. From my point of view it's worse as there is no evidence and all I'd have is faith. Positions of faith is why we've had so many religions in our history.

God is light. I don't understand that. Photons are light. God is photons? Do you have evidence God is light? What do you mean?

But it does, when prominent evolutionists argue that resulted from a chemical reaction. Evolution is about the change in species over time via natural selection in Darwinian terms. Evolutionists may hypothesis on abiogenisis but you're mistaken. This is about when and how biochemistry might have brought about the 1st replicating molecular seeds of life.

God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day. And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them?

I meant science doesn't show what was prior to the big bang and what caused it. I've cited..hubble..cosmic background radiation and things that support a big bang model. It's not about just dismissing God did it.. you just need to demonstrate he did and evidence he did. Well you make a claim...ie God did you must need to give evidence of his involvement . So if the evidence is out of your reach... why not just not believe it until it is. The default is we have no claims let's look for evidence. The default initial stance shouldn't be there is a God..we can't investigate that.. now let's go look at evidence with that presupposition bias. I don't see that as rational. Okay... here we're breaking the laws of nature right... so we are appealing to biblical authority and faith and miracle. This is a big claim that's in the bible..i need more than the it's true coz later in the bible it says it is. Same as people seem to be 100s of years old. The quran says Mohammed went to heaven on a winged horse. What mechanism do I reject that and accept the bible stuff? The list given was either general and was open to interpretation or to accept others all I've got is the bible saying it's true. Those who like nostradamous cite him predicting conflicts with the middle East.. the 2nd world war and even the rise of Hitler. Incidently I've still seen no response to the fall of tyre biblical prophecy that didn't happen.

This is bizarre to me. Of course we can use science to investigate the past. The past isn't investigatible? I'm sure you're aware of cosmic background radiation... my mistake wasn't Einstein.. 40s. map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html Gravitational waves. www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/what-are-gw. Predictions made and supported by big bang theory. Hubbles work and more. We can investigate here. We didn't have to find this...it didn't have to be that way. If we hadn't found it or had found something else we might have a different model now. Since Georges Lemaître first noted in 1927 that an expanding universe could be traced back in time to an originating single point, scientists have built on his idea of cosmic expansion. The scientific community was once divided between supporters of two different theories, the Big Bang and theSteady State theory, but a wide range ofempirical evidence has strongly favored the Big Bang which is now universally accepted.[9]In 1929, from analysis of galactic redshifts,Edwin Hubble concluded that galaxies are drifting apart; this is important observational evidence consistent with the hypothesis of an expanding universe. In 1964, the cosmic microwave background radiation was discovered, which was crucial evidence in favor of the Big Bang model,[10] since that theory predicted the existence of background radiation throughout the universe before it was discovered. More recently, measurements of the redshifts of supernovae indicate that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, an observation attributed to dark energy's existence.[11] The known physical laws of nature can be used to calculate the characteristics of the universe in detail back in time to an initial state of extreme densityand temperature.[12]. How does God fit in here... where is his involvement? Or do you just deny this data? This is clearly not the same as the supernatural being non investigatible...as you admit. Why believe in a proposition you can't investigate? The consensus supports these things because it's based on....evidence. where did i say believe consensus not based on evidence? Most people in the world...certainly usa and the middle East believe in God as you believe in God. Couldn't that be a consensus view? Where is the evidence for me to subscribe to this? Oh wait supernatural claims can't be investigated. I'd need faith from a starting point... having all answers before I've even investigated... and from authority... that's a fallacy. Any horizon issue well this is where inflation comes in. Science doesn't start with all knowledge and doesn't have all answers..things have to be discovered. Look how we've progressed in the last 400 years since science. If we don't know yet then we don't know.. we can't just say God. That's a argument from ignorance fallacy. Think I'm starting to understand.. you just attempt to derail any theory that contradicts biblical presupposition.. you still need to demonstrate God involvement.. I'm not seeing anything. Even in your view science can't investigate... and supernatural claims can't be investigated... your default should be... don't know not to assert the latter. You can just have faith in supernatural regardless and you must have. Then I'm left with which faith shall I pick... and based on what... where and when I happen to be born into? I don't see the need to pick any faith...how does it help to believe supernatural claims on faith. It seems as a species we more readily went to this in the absence of scientific but we don't need to do that now. Also faith claims require breaks in the laws of physics and biology and nature. Virgin births..people living for 800 plus years in the bible. Rising from the dead etc. Magnificent claims indeed... the evidence needs to be pretty magnificent..i don't see magnificent evidence for these claims...or any evidence. Unless anyone has some I've not seen? Doesn't your consensus fallacy apply here also?

Do we know how the universe started ... no. That means we don't have an explanation yet to then assert one makes no sense. Or demonstrate a God did it? All I see is assertion and analogy not evidence. No explanation then asserting one is an argument from ignorance fallacy. What i would accept for God is evidence of gods involvement. Faith doesn't help... Again this isn't evidence... you're not demonstrating it. I could just say magic pixies did it..zues did it...Mohammed is the prophet or any position. Evolution isn't random...mutations yes but guided by natural selection. Evolution isn't intended to explain abiogenisis. To assert God created any initail early life then you need to demonstrate its absolutely impossible naturally with all chemistry ...variables..conditions etc with the millions of years we have to play with. At the mo it's not known as lots wasnt and now is. Again if we don't know then for now we don't know. Asserting explanation is again an argument from ignorance fallacy else demonstrate a God doing it. Also you seem to be saying you recognise design elsewhere.. man made so the natural looks designed. That's just an analogy. We've evidence a car is designed.. the factory..blueprints... those who build them. Cars don't occur naturally in nature and reproduce. Sadly... and i do say sadly as I want to believe but we don't have the evidence in nature the same way else you could demonstrate it without fallacy or faith. Yowm... thanks. I'll take a few and overview. 1. Born of a woman? Erm well yeah... I'm sure people noticed that women give birth. It all looks like circular reasoning. Stuff in the bible validated by stuff in the bible right? How can we check this outside of faith? Seems to me without faith and independent corriberation future passages can just be added. Even if some things might be interpreted outside how is it precise.. not open to interpretations? Btw where is the tyre falling prophecy that didn't happen? I quite enjoy nostradamous predictions too but I don't see devine there either. I am not being deliberatly obtuse here. I just can't factor in any faith. Links must be demonstrated.

The bible is true coz the bible says it is doesn't help ... that's a circular reasoning fallacy. On prophecy..Please cite. It all looks like..a non precise claim then we go looking at history to see what fits. A prophecy must be precise and not repeating or open to interpretation. I may as well follow nostradamous right? What about the fall of tyre biblical prophecy... want went wrong there?

Yes I agree nature exists. Please demonstrate a God put it there. Just asserting isn't evidence that was the case. Stonehenge...yes we've evidence of humans back then...construction techniques..also stones they lost off the South coast in transporting. This is an equivocation fallacy..we don't need to assert supernatural claims. Really so you started with we don't know the answer ...looked and think evidence supports the supernatural? Most will go looking after indoctrination then pick or dismiss as necessary. If you were born in the middle East..ancient Greece..india or countless others you'd still be christian? Isn't it lucky everyone seems to be born at the right time and into the right religion. Really evidence...Demonstrate gods involvement. You realise science is science whatever religion. Another assertive statement...please demonstrably show God did it..or anything? As I said evolution pokes doesn't mean God... you must give evidence for a claim...as do alien origins or those who think we live in a matrix style simulation... which is growing sadly

Really you don't need to give evidence for your position? So you pin it on an argument from ignorance or incredulity fallacy or an argument from authority fallacy? You still need to demonstrate a God claim. Don't know what that means. It means you start with God claims are true now go looking at evidence to support that. Evidence should form belief not the other way round. Really...there are many areas that support. Discoveries could have falisified it let's not that's how understanding changes or modifies as with all theories. Are you aware of vestigial evidence? Whales with pelvic and hind leg remnants buried in their bodies? Go find.. Google ... go to a museum. I've cited much here prior. Essentially I'm looking for God evidence...attempts on derailing evolution have failed for 150 years. Attempting to poke holes doesn't mean the supernatural did it. You still gotta give evidence to prove your claim. As do those who think we're an alien experiment or we live in a matrix style simulation or anything else.

Okay then you're not working off the same evidence. Thankfully from my point of view evolution is established based on evidence..accepted scientifically... and as accepted as the germ theory of diseases..theory of gravity. Your presupposition means you'll have origins issue. Ever seen the dover trial usa..evolution vs intelligent design? Search on you tube as to why one is accepted and latter is not Anyway that aside then please demonstrate the bible version of origins as an alternative?

Involvement not improvement...predictive text. Okay so if you see the evidence for evolution..star and earth formation..please demonstrate..God's involvement in any of it

Yes I notice now how creationists accept a micro evolution now... when once they didn't but it stops at some particular biblical presupposition. Please demonstrate a God improvement in the same way evolutionary biologists do. Please demonstrate evidence for Adam and eve...earth formation?

Agreed...ish. You missed out the crucial part where I said it must be supported by evidence. One person in fact could change the course if new evidence is unearthed..it would be checked by others to ensure validity then if so would be our new best model based on it for example...ie peer reviewed. As galileo did... as you mentioned... has to be checked by others.. so can we repeat the data.. once we can that can become a consensus view.Else we would fall pray to anything any munchkin proposed.

Not the case if it's supported by evidence. An arguement from authority would be...ie one source.. not supported by evidence..ie the bible asserting the 6 day stuff The consensus demonstrates gravity theory...germ theory of disease...atom theory of matter.. earth goes round the sun. You're happy with all of it it seems right up to your bible things that would be in conflict

Hey Tristan...hope you're well. Apologies on not replying.. been away. I think we had left evolution and moved on to big bang stuff? You seem to be aware of some of the science and evidence but I'm not seeing how you then add God did anything and how you demonstrate that? In 1916 Einstein predicted gravitational waves in a big bang and inflation. You'll be aware of these waves being discovered a few years ago? Or the cosmic background radiation discovered in the 60s? Physics predicted this stuff and more prior. The science of this and evolution makes predictions and is falsifiable... as per scientific method. How do you get to interpreting it a different way to mean and add God? Please demonstrate? Or please demonstrate any God involvement here?

Isn't it a God given mortality code well maybe... can you demonstrate a God gave it? In terms of closer to God...i see lots of things in the bible I would consider immoral. Stoning in the bible includes...gay people.. witches..unrulely children... those who leave the religion..a wife if on her wedding night isn't a virgin...those who work on the Sabbath and more . That's not even including slavery and some other things discussed in other threads. I know you wouldn't do these things to people as I wouldn't as a now non believer so I don't see we get morality from the bible or god. Those in ISIS seem to as they take the gay killing...death to apostates and the rest more literally. It seems we may take some lessons from the bible and God but don't act on others. This says to me morailty comes from elsewhere..well being...social conditioning etc

New to thinking about this subject I'll confess. Is morality not learnt from the bible if you're a Christian ? Or does everyone think it's hard wired? Or both? If both what's learnt and what's hardwired?