Christine

On 9/8/2022 at 9:17 PM, JohnR7 said:

Paul tells us: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5/8) This is the rapture where we leave our Body behind. The resurrection is where our Body will be raised from the dead and reunited with our Soul and Spirit. 

'We are confident, I say, 
and willing rather to be absent from the body, 
and to be present with the Lord.'
(2 Cor. 5:8)

Hello @JohnR7,

With respect, the words you have placed between quotation marks is not an accurate quotation of 2 Corinthians 5:8 (above).  Also that verse has a context which should be read with it, from 2 Corinthians 5:1 onwards.

I would urge you to consider your words in the light of what Scripture actually says concerning both the state of the dead, and the resurrection.

Within the love of Christ
our risen and glorified, 
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris 

What was the name of the Lawyer Paul requested assistance for?

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In the Old Testament, man's relationship with the earth is in focus. So death ends all consciousness of the world he lives in. But in the New Testament, because the Christian is to forsake his claims on the earth and seek heavenly things, the focus is on his spirit (the organ for worship - Jn.4:24) and his soul (his disposition - 1st Pet.4-9). Both these organs cannot die in the sense of cessation of feeling, but the soul can nevertheless die (Matt.10:28). This is defined as "perdition" and the Greek means "exquisite lack of well-being". It does not mean cessation of sensory experience. Rather sensory experience is heightened. "Their torment rose rose like smoke day and night". "Their worm ... and Their fire ...." - very personal. I judge that the worm has to do with the suffering of the body, and fire, the soul (1st Pet.1:7)

Luke 16 is hotly debated among Bible students, so I am familiar with your understanding. For me, the matter is easily settled. Our Lord Jesus named men who actually lived. If the events told in the narrative did not actually happen, our Lord is caught in untruth. We are so accustomed in our daily lives to "stretch the truth" and tell little "white lies" to make a point, that we often forget that no untruth whatsoever proceeds from our Lord's mouth. He not only tells the truth, but IS the Truth (Jn.14:6). If the Lord meant a parable it would have read; "a certain man ... ", and "gathered to his father's bosom". But naming Abraham bound our Lord to the absolute truth.

But perhaps we can agree on one thing. The Lord has set a barrier between the living and the dead. He purposely does not want us to know too much about it. Necromancing was punishable by death under Law, and Paul was not allowed to report on his visit to Paradise. Saul's single encounter with a "soul" from the dead ended with his death

 

Hello @Adhoc,

I do not agree with your reasoning in relation to the soul in this entry: and stand by what I said in the reply made on May 26th.  The Word of God must be the advocate between us.

Thank you 
In Christ Jesus
Chris

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Please forgive my late response. Circumstances hindered me.

I can see why you come to this conclusion. When God made man, He made man in three parts (Gen.2:7). This is confirmed in 1st Thessalonians 5:23. You might notice that after Genesis 2:7 man is, almost without exception, called a "SOUL" (Gen.12:5, Ex.1:5, Lev.4:2, Act.2:41-43 etc. etc.). So in our study of scripture, we must apply the context to the word "soul". We must ask ask, is the man meant, or is his soul - the organ meant? Example;

15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. 16 But if he wash them not, nor bathe his flesh; then he shall bear his iniquity. (Le 17:15–16)

Here, the man is meant. But in Proverbs 19:16 the organ is meant.

16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.

 

' And the LORD God formed man 
of the dust of the ground, 
and breathed into his nostrils 
the breath of life; 
and man became a living soul.'
(Genesis 2:7)

Hello @Adhoc,

I do not believe the soul is ever referred to as a separate organ, but refers to the whole man, Body and soul, energised by the breath of life ( or spirit).  All three need to be present for man to be a living soul.  

I believe that Proverbs 19:16, that you quote, does not refute that.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Quote

AdHoc said:-

In another hotly disputed thread the contention of the author is that born again Christians never die, even when they die. Her contention is that at death the believer in Christ receives a new body, made in heaven and spiritual, and is caught up to be with God in heaven. I would like to present what I understand the Bible to reveal concerning the death of men, including the death of our Lord Jesus as a prime example.

Hello AdHoc,

Thank you for your carefully considered response to this author of the above quote.

Man does not have an immortal soul, for we are told that, 'the soul that sinneth it shall die', and as 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,' then all die (Romans 6:23). 

Yes, when a person dies, whether saved or unsaved, the body goes back to the earth from whence it came, and the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God Who gave it.  It remains in the place of the dead, or the grave, until it is resurrected by the power of God.

Resurrection life is a gift from God received by the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, and will be the promised future possession of all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:1). 

 

 

AdHoc said:-

This unnatural state of a human causes us to “groan” in death. This is seen in Lazarus in Luke 16. We would think that death would have ended his sufferings, but in Hades he needed to be “comforted”. The Greek word used here means “to run to one’s side”. The rich man had a ”flame” to torment him. Lazarus had no flame, but he nevertheless needed “comfort”.

Besides being naked in death, we know from the whole Bible that the dead are reckoned as “unclean”. Touching a dead man under the Law of Moses made one unclean for 7 days - the full number.

 

I do not believe that there is consciousness in death (Psalm 115:17).  Also, the faculties that would cause groaning are no longer functioning. The story told by our Lord of Lazarus and the rich man is irony, intended to show the hypocrisy of Pharisaic teaching.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

 

On 4/23/2022 at 8:40 PM, Markie51 said:

I do not understand/interpret "man" as referring to Noah exclusively.  The entire human society-excluding Noah and his family-were not considered righteous or just in God's eyes.  Remember that even though Noah was not perfect, he, nevertheless was considered righteous and deserving of life.  The the reference to "one-hundred and twenty years" does not refer to one's life expectancy-at that time-but the number of years before divine justice against the wicked human society would be destroyed.

'And the LORD said, 
My spirit shall not always strive with man (the man Adam), 
for that he also is flesh: 
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.'
(Gen 6:3)  

Hello @Markie51,

The 120 yrs. does not refer to the days before the flood.  It refers to 'The man' Adam.  Adam had also corrupted his way, along with the rest of mankind.  

In Genesis 2:17, the Lord God had declared that Adam should die.  Here in Genesis 6:3 it is made more clear, that though he had lived 810 years, he should surely die. the breath of life (or spirit of life) from God, should not for ever remain in him.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

'And it came to pass, 
when men (The man Adam - sing.) began to multiply on the face of the earth, 
and daughters were born unto them, (to Adam and Eve)
That the sons of God (Angels)
saw the daughters of men (The man Adam) that they were fair; 
and they took them wives of all which they chose.
And the LORD said, 
My spirit shall not always strive with man (The man Adam), 
for that he also is flesh: (The man Adam also as well as the others)
yet his (Adam's) days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
There were giants in the earth in those days; ('the days of Noah')
and also after that, 
when the sons of God (Angels) came in unto the daughters of men, 
and they bare children to them, 
the same became mighty men
which were of old, men of renown.
And GOD saw 
that the wickedness (lewdness, moral depravity) of man was great in the earth, 
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart 
was only evil continually.
And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, 
and it grieved Him at His heart.
And the LORD said, 
I will destroy man whom I have created 
from the face of the earth;
both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, 
and the fowls of the air; 
for it repenteth Me that I have made them.'
(Gen 6:1-8)  
 

'For ye are dead, 
and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Colossians 3:3-4)   

Hello there,

By God's reckoning, as a member of the Church which is His Body, 'the fulness of Him that filleth all in all:  I have died with Christ, been buried, quickened, raised and seated with Christ at God's right hand, I have died and my life is hid with Christ in God, and when He appears in glory then I too will appear with Him there.

Thank you, 
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Arrangement of the Camp

'Then the tribe of Gad: 
and the captain of the sons of Gad 
shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel. 
And his host, and those that were numbered of them, 
were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty. 

All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben 
were an hundred thousand and fifty 
and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, 
throughout their armies. 
And they shall set forth in the second rank. '
(Numbers 2:14-16)  

Arrangement of the Camp

And those which pitch by him (viz. Rueben - on the south side)
shall be the tribe of Simeon: 
and the captain of the children of Simeon 
shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. 
And his host, and those that were numbered of them, 
were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred. '
(Numbers 2:12-13)  

Arrangement of the Camp

On the south side 
shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben
according to their armies: 
and the captain of the children of Reuben 
shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur. 
And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, 
were forty and six thousand and five hundred. 
(Numbers 2:10-11)  

Arrangement of the Camp

'All that were numbered in the camp of Judah 
were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand 
and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. 
These shall first set forth.'
(Numbers 2:9)  

* God arranged the tribes of Israel in such a precise order and formation. 
So that when they camped or when they set forth it would remain the same.  
From above it would have produced the pattern of a cross I believe.  - Praise God!

Arrangement of the Camp

'Then the tribe of Zebulun: 
.. and Eliab the son of Helon 
.... shall be captain of the children of Zebulun. 
And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, 
were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.' 
(Numbers 2:7-8 ) 

Arrangement of the Camp

'And those that do pitch next unto him (Judah) 
.. shall be the tribe of Issachar: 
and Nethaneel the son of Zuar 
.. shall be captain of the children of Issachar. 
And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, 
.. were fifty and four thousand and four hundred. '
(Numbers 2:5-6) 

Arrangement of the Camp

'And on the east side toward the rising of the sun 
.. shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch 
.... throughout their armies: 
and Nahshon the son of Amminadab 
.. shall be captain of the children of Judah. 
.... And his host, and those that were numbered of them, 
...... were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.' 
(Numbers 2:3-4)  

Arrangement of the Camp

'And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 
Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, 
with the ensign of their father's house: 
far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch. '
(Numbers 2:1-2)  

'And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, 
.. every man by his own camp, 
.... and every man by his own standard, 
...... throughout their hosts. 
But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, 
.. that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: 
.... and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.'

And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did they.' 
(Numbers 1:52-54) 

'But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, 
.. and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: 
.... they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; 
...... and they shall minister unto it, 
........ and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.'

And when the tabernacle setteth forward, 
.. the Levites shall take it down: 
.... and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, 
...... the Levites shall set it up: 
........ and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.'    
(Numbers 1:50-51)  

 Levites Exempted

'But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers 
.. were not numbered among them. 
For the LORD had spoken unto Moses, saying, 
.. Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, 
.... neither take the sum of them 
...... among the children of Israel: ...' 
(Numbers 1:47-49)  

'These are those that were numbered, 
which Moses and Aaron numbered, 
.. and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: 
.... each one was for the house of his fathers. 
...... So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, 
........ by the house of their fathers, 
.......... from twenty years old and upward, 
............ all that were able to go forth to war in Israel; 
Even all they that were numbered 
were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.' 
(Numbers 1:44-46) 

Praise God!  For His precision and accuracy

'In The Wilderness' (Numbers):- (The numberings of the nation and the Levites)

'Of the children of Naphtali, 
.. throughout their generations, 
.... after their families, 
...... by the house of their fathers, 
........ according to the number of the names, 
.......... from twenty years old and upward, 
............ all that were able to go forth to war; 
Those that were numbered of them, 
even of the tribe of Naphtali, 
were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.'  
(Numbers 1:42-43)  

'In The Wilderness' (Numbers):- (The numberings of the nation and the Levites)

'Of the children of Asher, 
.. by their generations, 
.... after their families, 
...... by the house of their fathers, 
........ according to the number of the names, 
.......... from twenty years old and upward, 
............ all that were able to go forth to war; 
Those that were numbered of them, 
even of the tribe of Asher, 
were forty and one thousand and five hundred.'
 (Numbers 1:40-41) 

'In The Wilderness' (Numbers):- (The numberings of the nation and the Levites)

'Of the children of Dan, 
.. by their generations, 
.... after their families, 
...... by the house of their fathers, 
........ according to the number of the names, 
.......... from twenty years old and upward, 
............ all that were able to go forth to war; 
Those that were numbered of them, 
even of the tribe of Dan, 
were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.'
( Numbers 1:38-39)  

'In The Wilderness' (Numbers):- (The numberings of the nation and the Levites)

'Of the children of Benjamin, 
.. by their generations, 
.... after their families, 
...... by the house of their fathers, 
........ according to the number of the names, 
.......... from twenty years old and upward, 
............ all that were able to go forth to war;
Those that were numbered of them, 
even of the tribe of Benjamin, 
were thirty and five thousand and four hundred. '
(Numbers 1:36-37)