OldCoot

I would, but I am not really in shape to tackle many of these discussions in depth any longer. Probably why I was not quick to respond. I was diagnosed last friday with Esophageal cancer. it is a rather virulent form. Was not going to see the Oncologist till next Monday, but I had to go to ER today. I am now on home hospice care with about 2 weeks to live. No treatment, no surgery available. Only a miracle of the Lord can happen now. So looks like we will likely have to continue the discussion in the kingdom.

Try the entire chapters of each

Read Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22 and get back with us. Try looking at the other 3/4 of the Bible instead of trying to establish doctrine from only the NT. Act like a Berean. if one does not understand that it was the wrath of the Father poured out on the Son for our sin, they do not understand the Gospel.

Some that have a problem with the pre-70th week removal seem fixated on separating out that the entire week is not God’s wrath. Let’s try looking at this another way. Was not the wrath of the Father poured out on the Son when He was crucified? I seem to get that idea when I read Isaiah 53, Psalms 22, etc. But who was it that beat Him so bad that all His bones were out of joint? Who was it that turned Him into hamburger with all the whippings? Who was it that nailed Him to that cross? Well it sure wasn’t God personally. So it is not all extreme to suggest all the stuff going on throughout the 7 year period is in fact the wrath of God upon the world. But why would that wrath also come upon those saints of that time? Well, since the redeemed are caught up before the 7 years started, those saints are not saints when things get cranked up. It would seem the removal and the calamities coming upon the earth will shake them out of their stupor

Thanks for the prayers, Bro! I have generally been in the so-called "gap" theory camp when it comes to Genesis. Specifically regarding Genesis 1:2 where the text should more literally read... "and the earth BECAME without form and void". Not a gap theory of an idea that the days of creation were epochs or ages. Just that there was a created earth that, for some reason, became corrupted so that the Lord had to rebuild it. And the entire universe was affected at the same time. And the time interval between the first letter of Genesis 1:1 and the earth becoming void in Genesis 1:2 is up for grabs with nothing substantive we can lay hands on to affirm a particular time frame. I have been of the persuasion that there was some cataclysmic event that took the earth from its original created state. Be that the angelic rebellion led by Satan or some other event. There seems to be hints of this in other parts of scripture. Nothing definitive, but hints. Evidently the Lord did not feel it important enough for us to focus and spend excessive amounts of time on. The six days of creation commonly referred to are susequent to that cataclysmic event. I don't make it a major point to argue about, but I do believe that given the dynamic dimensionality of the known universe, and that the creator is several dimensions beyond that, we are peering into history with a 4 dimensional mindset and trying to understand and explain something that we have such a myopic view of. All we can do is trust.

I have a similar thought, but view it from a different perspective. It is no so much of a protecting the Bride from persecution (as many anti pre 70th week folks like to claim), as persecution has been a part of our existence since Yeshua returned to the Father. It is more of a matter of understanding what the purpose of the tribulation period is and who is the central focus of that time. And it is the central focus of that time which is central to setting the stage for Yeshua to return to the earth to take over. That central focus is Jacob/Israel. It was because of their rejection of Him that caused Him to return to His place, and it will be their acknowledgement of that rejection, turning to Him, and petitioning for His return before He will. Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. 15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." "their affliction" is the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah30) which correlates with the 70th week of Daniel 9. While indeed, the Lord will pour out His wrath on the world during that time, that is not the purpose of the period. The purpose is to drive Jacob/Israel to the wall and giving them no alternative but to call out to the Lord and petition for Messiah to rescue them. And the bride of Messiah, the church, has no part in that purpose. Therefore the Bride has no purpose in going thru that time. The Bride is united with the Groom at the marriage chamber and the marriage consummated while the events that are to transpire on the earth run their course. And the Bride returns with Messiah when He comes to take over and rule. It is only Christian arrogance that seems to think that everything that happens in the plan's and purposes of God involves the Church and Believers.

Well, Yeshua did say that He would return to "His Place" due to the rejection of Him by Jacob/Israel, and would not return physically to the earth again until they acknowledge that offense and petition for His return. So for Him to return to His place, He had to have left it, and therefore returned to the same place He left. Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. 15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." Where folks get a little messed up I think is equating the gathering unto the Lord as a literal physical returning of the Lord to the earth, which is literally the "second" coming. So whether the removal is pre, mid, pre-wrath, whatever has nothing to do with the literal return of the Lord to the earth that will indeed occur.

I will try to keep things less wordy in this regard in my post. I have been fascinated by stuff that Australian Barry Setterfield has studied showing light speed has changed (slowed) over the millennia. So while the distances we see in the Universe as indeed actual in linear terms, the ages being represented in common scientific circles is flawed. One of the problems one runs into when one puts most or all their eggs in the Lyell Uniformitarianism basket. Gerald Schroeder, Israeli physicist, did an interesting analysis. If you take what science says is the age of the Universe, factor the mass of the universe, and one is standing on the edge of the universe the time that science says the age of the universe is 6 days using basic Einstein Relativity. I tend to side with Barry Setterfield's work on light speed and such. With current use of radiometric clocks, there is no discernible change in light speed, but there is a discernible change when one uses basic rotational movement based time measurement. Either the earth is speeding up in rotation around the sun or light is slowing. Radiometric clocks, based on atomic changes which affect light, would change in unison with light speed changes and there would be no discernible change in light speed. I haven't seen where Barry lays down any specific Bishop Usher time line, but Barry does suggest that the universe is likely not more than 10-20,000 years old. Light speed according to Barry has been slowing on an exponent squared curve. If one extrapolates back based on the know light speed measurements that have been taken since the 1700's and follow the curve, Light would be twice as fast as today during the time Jesus was on the earth, and increase to where light was virtually instantaneous at the time we believe creation occurred. Anyone who has done an exponent square curve graph in a math class would see the correlation. Just another thought in the mix.

Thank you so much. I will take it all gladly! I have to apologize to everyone here that I might have derailed the conversation by bringing this diagnosis of my health up. But one thing that I am truly inspired by is though some of us may disagree on various topics like this one, and may appear to some that we are fighting like cats in a sandbox, we can come together as family when it is time to do so. And that has to put a smile on the Lord's face! I am so moved. I look forward to meeting all of you one day! Cliff

You are a great guy, Daniel. That is much appreciated. Like I have told others, while I cherish prayers and support for me, it is my wife Mischelle whom I truly fear for in this. She is having the worse time in dealing with this. please keep her in mind also. I have been blessed beyond measure to have lived and experienced what I have in life. The Lord is truly good. Thanks to everyone. A true example of what family is supposed to mean. Blessings to all of you! Cliff

Thanks so much JoeMo! Even with this, I am blessed beyond what anyone deserves. Given the military and other situations in my life, I am surprised the Lord let me go this long. My wife is who I truly worry about. She has a far tougher time than I do dealing with news like this and she is taking it pretty hard. Thanks again! Cliff

Thanks, LD. But I think it is much simpler than you suggest. The will of the Father is that we believe and trust on the Son. While I would never argue that we are to follow His guidance and in doing so we are building up rewards. Redemption is a once and for all event. Else there is the risk of falling into a works righteousness gig. And even worse, some can allow pride to intervene and exhibit a superiority schtick over other believers. So in fact, we may be just talking past each other to some extent. If one sees the redemption as the base and rewards as being the house, then what you say would be correct. If one sees the works are rewards as part of redemption, then not so much. I like things a more simple..... 1 John 3:23 (NKJV) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. So I guess the question still somewhat remains.... what is the house built of and what is it built on. It seems the focus of the statement by Yeshua is the rock and not the house. However from your comment I get the feeling you are focusing more on the house than what it is built on.

Thanks, Joe. Appreciated. I do relish prayers for me, but especially for my wife, Mischelle. She is having a very tough time accepting this. I think she will have a tougher time thru this than I will, irregardless of outcome. Cliff

You and me both!!!!! Every day that is my desire! To be with the Lord just can't come quick enough.

True enough. But what house is one attempting to build and on what rock? Is one counting on their efforts? The statement by Yeshua is what is commonly known as an analogy, not a literalism. Yeshua is the rock. I don't need to build anything. I pitch my tent with Yeshua and am protected by Him. Boy, how I love the simplicity of the Gospel. Nothing I can do nor am I required to do but simply trust and believe. And this is even more a wonderful thing now that I was diagnosed with advanced Esophageal Cancer yesterday by my doctor. The Lord is to be praised in all things!