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OldCoot

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Everything posted by OldCoot

  1. I would, but I am not really in shape to tackle many of these discussions in depth any longer. Probably why I was not quick to respond. I was diagnosed last friday with Esophageal cancer. it is a rather virulent form. Was not going to see the Oncologist till next Monday, but I had to go to ER today. I am now on home hospice care with about 2 weeks to live. No treatment, no surgery available. Only a miracle of the Lord can happen now. So looks like we will likely have to continue the discussion in the kingdom.
  2. Try the entire chapters of each
  3. Read Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22 and get back with us. Try looking at the other 3/4 of the Bible instead of trying to establish doctrine from only the NT. Act like a Berean. if one does not understand that it was the wrath of the Father poured out on the Son for our sin, they do not understand the Gospel.
  4. Some that have a problem with the pre-70th week removal seem fixated on separating out that the entire week is not God’s wrath. Let’s try looking at this another way. Was not the wrath of the Father poured out on the Son when He was crucified? I seem to get that idea when I read Isaiah 53, Psalms 22, etc. But who was it that beat Him so bad that all His bones were out of joint? Who was it that turned Him into hamburger with all the whippings? Who was it that nailed Him to that cross? Well it sure wasn’t God personally. So it is not all extreme to suggest all the stuff going on throughout the 7 year period is in fact the wrath of God upon the world. But why would that wrath also come upon those saints of that time? Well, since the redeemed are caught up before the 7 years started, those saints are not saints when things get cranked up. It would seem the removal and the calamities coming upon the earth will shake them out of their stupor
  5. Thanks for the prayers, Bro! I have generally been in the so-called "gap" theory camp when it comes to Genesis. Specifically regarding Genesis 1:2 where the text should more literally read... "and the earth BECAME without form and void". Not a gap theory of an idea that the days of creation were epochs or ages. Just that there was a created earth that, for some reason, became corrupted so that the Lord had to rebuild it. And the entire universe was affected at the same time. And the time interval between the first letter of Genesis 1:1 and the earth becoming void in Genesis 1:2 is up for grabs with nothing substantive we can lay hands on to affirm a particular time frame. I have been of the persuasion that there was some cataclysmic event that took the earth from its original created state. Be that the angelic rebellion led by Satan or some other event. There seems to be hints of this in other parts of scripture. Nothing definitive, but hints. Evidently the Lord did not feel it important enough for us to focus and spend excessive amounts of time on. The six days of creation commonly referred to are susequent to that cataclysmic event. I don't make it a major point to argue about, but I do believe that given the dynamic dimensionality of the known universe, and that the creator is several dimensions beyond that, we are peering into history with a 4 dimensional mindset and trying to understand and explain something that we have such a myopic view of. All we can do is trust.
  6. I have a similar thought, but view it from a different perspective. It is no so much of a protecting the Bride from persecution (as many anti pre 70th week folks like to claim), as persecution has been a part of our existence since Yeshua returned to the Father. It is more of a matter of understanding what the purpose of the tribulation period is and who is the central focus of that time. And it is the central focus of that time which is central to setting the stage for Yeshua to return to the earth to take over. That central focus is Jacob/Israel. It was because of their rejection of Him that caused Him to return to His place, and it will be their acknowledgement of that rejection, turning to Him, and petitioning for His return before He will. Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. 15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." "their affliction" is the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah30) which correlates with the 70th week of Daniel 9. While indeed, the Lord will pour out His wrath on the world during that time, that is not the purpose of the period. The purpose is to drive Jacob/Israel to the wall and giving them no alternative but to call out to the Lord and petition for Messiah to rescue them. And the bride of Messiah, the church, has no part in that purpose. Therefore the Bride has no purpose in going thru that time. The Bride is united with the Groom at the marriage chamber and the marriage consummated while the events that are to transpire on the earth run their course. And the Bride returns with Messiah when He comes to take over and rule. It is only Christian arrogance that seems to think that everything that happens in the plan's and purposes of God involves the Church and Believers.
  7. Well, Yeshua did say that He would return to "His Place" due to the rejection of Him by Jacob/Israel, and would not return physically to the earth again until they acknowledge that offense and petition for His return. So for Him to return to His place, He had to have left it, and therefore returned to the same place He left. Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. 15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." Where folks get a little messed up I think is equating the gathering unto the Lord as a literal physical returning of the Lord to the earth, which is literally the "second" coming. So whether the removal is pre, mid, pre-wrath, whatever has nothing to do with the literal return of the Lord to the earth that will indeed occur.
  8. I will try to keep things less wordy in this regard in my post. I have been fascinated by stuff that Australian Barry Setterfield has studied showing light speed has changed (slowed) over the millennia. So while the distances we see in the Universe as indeed actual in linear terms, the ages being represented in common scientific circles is flawed. One of the problems one runs into when one puts most or all their eggs in the Lyell Uniformitarianism basket. Gerald Schroeder, Israeli physicist, did an interesting analysis. If you take what science says is the age of the Universe, factor the mass of the universe, and one is standing on the edge of the universe the time that science says the age of the universe is 6 days using basic Einstein Relativity. I tend to side with Barry Setterfield's work on light speed and such. With current use of radiometric clocks, there is no discernible change in light speed, but there is a discernible change when one uses basic rotational movement based time measurement. Either the earth is speeding up in rotation around the sun or light is slowing. Radiometric clocks, based on atomic changes which affect light, would change in unison with light speed changes and there would be no discernible change in light speed. I haven't seen where Barry lays down any specific Bishop Usher time line, but Barry does suggest that the universe is likely not more than 10-20,000 years old. Light speed according to Barry has been slowing on an exponent squared curve. If one extrapolates back based on the know light speed measurements that have been taken since the 1700's and follow the curve, Light would be twice as fast as today during the time Jesus was on the earth, and increase to where light was virtually instantaneous at the time we believe creation occurred. Anyone who has done an exponent square curve graph in a math class would see the correlation. Just another thought in the mix.
  9. Thank you so much. I will take it all gladly! I have to apologize to everyone here that I might have derailed the conversation by bringing this diagnosis of my health up. But one thing that I am truly inspired by is though some of us may disagree on various topics like this one, and may appear to some that we are fighting like cats in a sandbox, we can come together as family when it is time to do so. And that has to put a smile on the Lord's face! I am so moved. I look forward to meeting all of you one day! Cliff
  10. You are a great guy, Daniel. That is much appreciated. Like I have told others, while I cherish prayers and support for me, it is my wife Mischelle whom I truly fear for in this. She is having the worse time in dealing with this. please keep her in mind also. I have been blessed beyond measure to have lived and experienced what I have in life. The Lord is truly good. Thanks to everyone. A true example of what family is supposed to mean. Blessings to all of you! Cliff
  11. Thanks so much JoeMo! Even with this, I am blessed beyond what anyone deserves. Given the military and other situations in my life, I am surprised the Lord let me go this long. My wife is who I truly worry about. She has a far tougher time than I do dealing with news like this and she is taking it pretty hard. Thanks again! Cliff
  12. Thanks, LD. But I think it is much simpler than you suggest. The will of the Father is that we believe and trust on the Son. While I would never argue that we are to follow His guidance and in doing so we are building up rewards. Redemption is a once and for all event. Else there is the risk of falling into a works righteousness gig. And even worse, some can allow pride to intervene and exhibit a superiority schtick over other believers. So in fact, we may be just talking past each other to some extent. If one sees the redemption as the base and rewards as being the house, then what you say would be correct. If one sees the works are rewards as part of redemption, then not so much. I like things a more simple..... 1 John 3:23 (NKJV) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. So I guess the question still somewhat remains.... what is the house built of and what is it built on. It seems the focus of the statement by Yeshua is the rock and not the house. However from your comment I get the feeling you are focusing more on the house than what it is built on.
  13. Thanks, Joe. Appreciated. I do relish prayers for me, but especially for my wife, Mischelle. She is having a very tough time accepting this. I think she will have a tougher time thru this than I will, irregardless of outcome. Cliff
  14. You and me both!!!!! Every day that is my desire! To be with the Lord just can't come quick enough.
  15. True enough. But what house is one attempting to build and on what rock? Is one counting on their efforts? The statement by Yeshua is what is commonly known as an analogy, not a literalism. Yeshua is the rock. I don't need to build anything. I pitch my tent with Yeshua and am protected by Him. Boy, how I love the simplicity of the Gospel. Nothing I can do nor am I required to do but simply trust and believe. And this is even more a wonderful thing now that I was diagnosed with advanced Esophageal Cancer yesterday by my doctor. The Lord is to be praised in all things!
  16. I would add, Yeshua did not tell us to "stay awake" and keep an eye out for the antichrist and all the associated stuff. He told us to stay awake for we do not know when our greater redemption comes. There is no scripture that admonishes the redeemed to stay alert for the coming of the antichrist, the time of Jacob's trouble, etc. It only admonishes us to stay alert for our gathering to Messiah. To not get all caught up in the affairs of this life that we take our focus off of Him. Luke 21:28 (NKJV) Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." Notice how it says when all the calamities previously described begin to happen, not while or when they are happening. Just like many of the Prophets wrote that at the beginning of the birth pains, the righteous dead would be raised and along with the living righteous would be hidden from that time.
  17. I guess that would lead to the question... how are we to prepare if the pre 70th week removal is not true? Let's see, those days will be like none that have even preceded them, and there will never again be a time that will compare to it. That would include all of human history and all the catastrophes and calamities that have happened. Also, Yeshua said that folks would literally go into cardiac arrest over what will be coming upon the earth. And given the technology that is already upon us, some idea of hiding out and being a doomsday prepper is not going to be a viable option either. Also, what would be any other preparation that trusting in the redemption of Messiah, which is a condition to be a redeemed believer to begin with? I don't see a pre 70th week removal as being a lullaby, but in fact the blessed hope that is promised to the righteous. The very thing that Paul had to remind the Thessalonians of because they had been duped that they were in the Day of the Lord already. I do find it captivating that those who don't like the idea seem compelled to belittle and demean those who do by calling it a lullaby and other demeaning terms. Just like I am captivated that the early removal of the righteous is the only position that Satan has expelled so much time and energy to explain away. Yep, many New Age and UFO writers have gone to great lengths to describe how there will be a removal of the negative elements of humanity so that then the earth can move into a higher dimensional state. Many of those writers even use Pauline style terminology..... that it will happen in the 'twinkling of an eye'. Satan has done a pretty fair job of explaining the early removal away. It seems with so many so vehemently opposed to a early removal idea, both secular and religious, maybe it isn't all that far fetched after all. Kinda reminds me of a variation of a quote in Hamlet by good 'ol Bill Shakespeare, which has come to be commonly phrased as... "me thinks ye doest protest too much".
  18. Yep, could be the decree of the day of the Lord. But keep in mind, the Day of the Lord it is a period, not a literal 24 hour day. Just like Jeremiah 30:7 refers to it as the 'time of Jacob's Trouble' and David talks about being hidden in the Lord's tabernacle in His pavilion during the 'time of trouble', Psalms 27:5. And Isaiah 13 says that the birth pains are the day of the Lord. Jeremiah 30 equates the births pains with the time of Jacob's trouble. And Isaiah 26 mentions the gates are opened so the righteous nation may enter at or near the start of the birth pains and the resurrection and hiding of them occurs. Only you seem to be equating the entirety of the 70th week as literally God's wrath. No one else seems to be. Not me especially, as I have stated before that I believe the GT period is the last half of the 70th week. I have stated that the entirety of the 70th week is the time of Jacob's trouble. And it seems rather evident that any details regarding the removal are centered on happening before or at the start of Jacob's Trouble. And since Zephaniah does not state specifically what the decree is, your guess is no better than anyone elses. Even if I am in error that the removal occurs before the 70th week starts, there is little doubt that the removal will occur before the AOD of the middle of the 70th week. So the only candidates are pre 70th and mid 70th. Nothing else works. And since Paul says the departure / taken out of the way happens before the candidate for the AC arrives, the pretty much narrows it to pre 70th. And you do not know if the confirmation of a covenant is a treaty per se. Many have assumed it is. But it also could be a confirmation of the Abrahamic covenant regarding the land that has been in place for 4000 years. And the 'land' seems to always be the hot button when it comes to Israel and its neighbors, or the world for that matter. So there is no technical need for an new alliance or treaty to be in place. Just an individual that has enough power to enforce the idea that the land does indeed belong to Israel and offer a feeling of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:3). Then later comes along and breaks his word. And He would have to be the one who has consolidated power and is the candidate for the AC to pull it off. And therefore he would be revealed. Especially since there is a specific trigger that starts the 70th week. And for that to happen, the individual that fulfills the candidacy of the AC has to be on the scene to confirm the covenant which is the trigger. And Paul is quite clear that the departure / taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2) occurs first, then this individual will be revealed. And there is Revelation 4/5 that the door (gate) of heaven is opened just like Isaiah 26:2 and the 24 Elders who are kings and priests, redeemed of all tongues, nations, tribes, etc. Again Peter calls us a Royal Priesthood and a Holy Nation (righteous nation per Isaiah 26). And it is an equivalence with 1 Chronicles 24 when David grouped the priests into 24 divisions all named by the elders of each division. 24 Elders also. And the 24 elders of the redeemed are there before the scroll is handed Yeshua and the first seal is broken.
  19. Read about the dead being resurrected in Isaiah 26... Before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. They are hidden in their rooms / chambers. Zephaniah 2 says that the righteous are 'hidden' before the decree is issued. Only two things have any possibility of being candidates to fit "before the decree is issued" of the period. The affirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 which triggers the 7 year period, and the scroll being handed to Yeshua in Revelation 5. "first" resurrection does not mean first in order or timing. It means first in rank, influence. preeminence, etc. There have been resurrections and there will be multiple resurrections before the "first" resurrection of Revelation 20 which occurs at the start of the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom. Matthew 27 resurrection of saints after Yeshua's resurrection, the pre 70th week resurrection, the resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 in the middle of the week, etc.
  20. Pre 7. Because Zephaniah 2 amplifies Isaiah 26 in saying that it will happen 'before the decree is issued'. The only decree of that time that is of unique significance is the affirmation of the covenant by the AC in Daniel 9:27. Also, 2 Thessalonians 2. The context of the passage is the day of the Lord and our gathering unto Him. And it would seem that these folks were upset by a fake letter that they were already in the day of the Lord. Well, to be upset, they must have felt they missed something. Paul had to remind them that 'that day' would not happen unless the departure happens first, then the son of perdition be revealed. He amplified that a few verses later saying that the one who restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way, then the man of sin will be revealed. The only thing that restrains evil is the Holy Spirit who indwells and seals the believers. If He is 'taken out of the way' then by extension the vessels He resides in will be taken out of the way. In both OT and NT references, it seems clear that the righteous are being taken out of the way and hidden before the decree is issued and man of sin is revealed. Likewise, Peter refers to us as a Holy Nation and Royal Priesthood. Back to Isaiah 26 removal chapter, and the gates are being opened early on in the chapter for the righteous nation. Later is the same chapter, the dead and living righteous are 'hidden' in their chambers (hidden just like Zephaniah 2 says the righteous are hidden), which comports with John 14 where Yeshua is preparing rooms / chambers for us in the Father's house. In Revelation 4, a gate is standing open in heaven (see Isaiah 26:2).... after the 'these things' of of the churches which the letters are formally addressed to existing churches, following the outline of Revelation laid down by Yeshua in Revelation 1:19.... the things which have been, the things which are, and those things that will come after those. And when the scroll is handed to Yeshua later, the 24 Elders call themselves Kings and Priests, redeemed of every tongue, tribe, nation, etc in Revelation 5. 1 Peter 2:9, Pete says that we are a royal priesthood. That is equivalent to kings / priests. And there is precedent for the 24 in 1 Chronicles 24 where David divided the entire priesthood into 24 divisions. Each group / division named after its priestly elder... 24 Elders. The 24 Elders which are kings and priests are standing in Heaven before the scroll is handed to Yeshua and the first seal is cracked open in Revelation 6.
  21. Many pre-70th week adherents see only the GT as being the last half of the 70th week. Only folks like you who have an axe to grind seem to think pre-70th week folks have the whole 70th week being the literal GT. It is the mercy of God that there will be time for those to make a choice after the removal of the righteous before the wrath part starts. But even before the wrath of God starts, there is a lot of death and dying going on. But even Zephaniah is pretty clear that the righteous are hidden.... before .... the decree is issued. Isaiah uses the same 'hidden' to describe the righteous being hidden in their chambers, which is remarkably similar to what Yeshua talked about in John 14. And Isaiah talks about the dead being resurrected and hidden right along just like Paul does in 1 Thessalonians 4. And Isiah is pretty clear that it happens before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. And the only 'decree' that Zephaniah mentions that seems to be of significance and a marker of that period is the affirmation of the covenant of Daniel 9:27 that is the trigger of the 70th week. One might also look at the scroll being handed to Yeshua in Revelation as a decree I suppose. Either one is early on in the 70th week period. That you reject this entire thing is a choice like anything else. I support the idea and have not been swayed from it in 6 decades even with all the ridicule and hearing all the supposed counter arguments. And unlike folks like you who spend an inordinate amount of time attacking other views, I waste little time trying to dispel other ideas on these things. It is said that the best training to spot counterfeit money is to be deeply familiar with real money, and I apply the same principle here. And there is a lot of scripture in both OT and NT that supports a pre-70th week removal. That doesn't detract one bit that many will place their trust in Yeshua and suffer for that decision, as a result of witnessing the removal or disappearance of many. But then, they were not redeemed to begin with when the event happened, so they have no one but themselves to blame. They were not "left behind" as if they were somehow substandard believers. They were not taken because they were not believers to begin with and part of the righteous. And belief is a a dynamic concept. Not only in who Yeshua is, but also in what the word says. I am not sure one can separate the idea of belief in the person while at the same time not believing what that person has to say. And even in the secular realm. Satan has spent a considerable amount of time via New Age writers, Extra terrestrial adherents, etc in explaining away a pre-70th week position. That seems rather curious. Out of all the positions to spend a lot of time trying to negate, only the pre-70th week rates high enough to garner so much literary ink to negate. Hardly a peep from these New Age / UFO writers about mid, pre-wrath, post, or amillenial positions. They all seem unified in describing how certain "negative elements" will have to be removed early on so the earth can then move into a higher dimensional existence. Some of those writings even describe how these folks are removed in similar language to what Paul used. No matter, their view is that these "negative elements" have to be removed.... before ....the earth and mankind can move into a higher dimensional vibration. Sure sounds like an attempt to explain away an early removal. I am not equating what these folks write about as being on par with scripture. But as an ex military person, I did learn that one way to learn what to be aware of was what the focus of the enemy is. And a health dose of "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge" as Hosea says. And while judgement begins with the church, that doesn't mean wrath does. Judgement is mentioned many times in scripture and is simply a separating out. Just like sheep and goats. I guess the key point is what they are judged on, especially since Paul says there is no longer any condemnation for those in Yeshua. So it would seem, the only "judgement" that is referred to is a separation of those who are in Yeshua and those who are not. As much as some try to ignore, there are non Christians in Christian fellowships. Along the lines of..... Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' And that comports with a early removal idea also.
  22. Yes, it was spurious, simply because you are not well versed in the topic and throwing out anything that you think will stick. For one, classic pre-millennial Pre-trib adherents state that all who are in the Body... redeemed by Messiah and sealed by the Holy Spirit... will make the trip. None of this goofy "not good enough" protestant purgatory nonsense. All who are redeemed get caught up. Yes, even folks like you who seem to despise the idea, if they are actually redeemed and in the body of Messiah. And I am not sure you will be kicking and screaming to stay behind when that time comes. Those that get left behind never had their redemption passport to make the trip. Now that will probably include some in many congregations simply because showing up regularly to the 1st Overcoming Baptist Church every week and even being in the music ministry and children's ministry does not make one born again and redeemed. Now of those that are left behind, because they never were in the body of the redeemed likely will have a change of heart and mind after witnessing the disappearance of many people. I believe it was in the Book of Enoch that very thing was stated as not only will happen, but that one fo he reasons for the removal is to provide a wake up call to those that are not redeemed. Unfortunately, those that do realize what happened and turn to the Lord will have a price to pay for their procrastination. That is the tribulation saints. Those dying today that are redeemed, they will make the trip also. Remember, both Paul and Isaiah said both the dead and living righteous will be taken. While they may be dying "in the name of Jesus", the key component to that is whether they are "in Jesus". Lots of folks have died over the years when other folks thought they were Christians and killed them. But that doesn't mean in reality they actually were. Yeshua was quite fond of referencing the Hebrew wedding and in scripture it is mentioned that redeemed are the bride of Messiah. If one studies the minute details of the 1st Century Hebrew marriage, it would become crystal clear why the bride must be removed early on. Yeshua wasn't just referring to the Hebrew wedding just because one time He got a kick out of turning the water to wine and is looking forward to it again.
  23. that is a pretty spurious argument. The reason the rapture didn't happen for them is because the time of the rapture has not come. What about what happened to the Apostles? Were they not good enough also? what of what happened to many Christians at the hands of the "church". That doesn't mean they will not be resurrected at the rapture as Isiah and Paul go into detail about. So they are good enough for the rapture, that they died before the rapture doesn't negate their participation. Both dead and living righteous get to participate. And that still doesn't negate the timing of the removal.
  24. I really like the KJV, but even it is not without its flaws. And it deviated somewhat from all that came before it. It is very good, but like all translations, not perfect. Even the translators acknowledged that in their introduction and it went thru a few updates over the years. At least it has been around for 400 years and the flaws are known. Where I really side with it is the base Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek source texts.
  25. I can understand how you would call it a false premise. Ever since Origen introduced allegorical interpretation regarding the scripture, the dispute has gone on, But it has yet to crumble. There is considerable evidence from the early period of the church right on thru the reformation on up to today of many who see a pre calamities removal of the righteous. It is not a recent invention. It all centers around hermeneutics and how one takes the scripture as either allegorical and figurative or that the scripture is implicit in what it is saying... the plain sense of the passage makes sense and one should not seek any other sense. If scripture is not to be taken at face value and the plain sense, then the problem of who determines what is really to be taken literally vs what is to be taken figuratively comes into play. And that tends to be a moving goal post. Could be some influence from my science classes in college, but I prefer the objective standard of hermeneutics that in a nutshell says... when the plain sense of the passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one end up with nonsense. And Paul reminds us to "test the spirits". So this blanket nonsense of defaulting to "if one allows the Spirit to teach" as a some sort of methodology to shut down opposition, it doesn't work. The Spirit does illuminate the Word, but the Spirit also put in place in scripture several principles on how to determine a matter's validity so that one can test if they are actually being led by the Holy Spirit or a evil spirit. The ultimate safety checks are in place if one wants to avail themselves of them. The Bereans in Acts 17 did.
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