Sab

I agree that Rev 16:17-21 are future. You have contradicted yourself. In a post a couple of days ago you said mystery babylon is the whole world combined. That is error. Ive looked at what youve posted and perhaps you're convinced by your arguments but frankly I believe the entire futurist position which you're defending is nothing but speculative bunk. Just a FYI. I won't be answering any more of your comments. Don't flatter yourself that it's because I'm intimidated by your arguments. I really didnt join this forum to debate futurism. If you can't see what's wrong with it, ask the Lord to show you.

Sister, I noticed that you completely ignored my point that Babylon is called a city 9 times. So don't hold your breath waiting forme to reply to any more of your comments.

The 6th trumpet. The invasion by the Turks While this doesn’t have the most exciting graphics this short clip does show the incredible speed at which the seven churches were swallowed up by the Turkish empire. Pretty much within 10 years after the Romans were defeated at Manzikert almost all of Anatolia was flooded by Turks. The Greek civilization that had existed there for over 1000 years was destroyed. Greeks were forced to convert to islam and had to adopt the Turkish language.

Rev 14:8 Babylon is fallen, is fallen. That great city because she made all nations drink the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (The city that corrupted the gospel by mixing the worship of God with idolatry. Look up 2nd council of Nicaea) Rev 16:19 Now the great city was divided into three parts... (Look at any aerial map of Istanbul. This is clearly visible) Rev 17:18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth. (As the capital of the Roman empire Constantinople eclipsed Rome) Rev 18:10 Alas, alas, that great city, Babylon, that mighty city. For in one hour your judgment has come. (This was the reaction of the pope and western Europe when they heard that the Turks had captured Constantinople in 1453) Rev 18:16 Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple and scarlet and adorned with precious stones and pearls. (Fine linen is a reference to the saints - she was supposedly Christian. Purple and scarlet were only allowed to be worn by the imperial household. Gold and precious stones show her great wealth. Constantinople was the wealthiest city of tbe middle ages Rev 18: Rev 18:18 (every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors and as many as trade on the sea) cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, "What is like this great city ." 19 they threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, "Alas, alas that great city in which all who ships on the sea became rich by her wealth. (The Venetians in particular became wealthy through trade with Constantinople. World Book encyclopedia lists every item in rev 18:12-13 under Byzantine economy. Now about that list. Trade in ivory has been banned for decades so this points to a time in the past when it was not. Slavery is also not part of global trade these days. This was the reaction throughout Europe when they heard about the Turkish conquest of the great city) Rev 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city babylon shall be thrown down and shall not be found any more. (Istanbul sits just 15 miles from the North Anatolian fault line. Seismologists predict that her getting dumped into the sea is inevitable. We read in the gospels that it would be better for those who offend a little one who trusts in Jesus to have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea. The damage that was done to the gospel when it became married to the state power cannot be measured. Idolatry became sanctioned by the church. Murder was sanctioned by the church. Anyone who did not worship idols was condemned as a heretic and punishment for heresy was death. Read some church history. Babylon is called a city 9 times in the Book of Revelation. I think it's safe to say Mystery Babylon is a city. Only one city fulfills all the descriptions given... Istanbul, Constantinople. Oh and here is the final irony. Rev 18:4 says "come out of her" Istanbul means "go into the city" The Turks heard "eis ten polis", enter the city and called her Istanbul.

In 1204 the crusaders entered constantinople and burned and looted her. The woman was that great city. The 10 horns were the germanic kingdoms that appeared on the beast (the roman empire). This also helps us to see when this prophecy was fulfilled. In 90 AD when the Revelation was written the beast (roman empire) had no horns. They migrated into the western empire in the 4th and 5th centuries. They hated constantinople because of religious rivalry - that is well documented in history. In 1204 their hatred found expression in an orgy of looting. The city was stripped of her wealth. She was left burned and naked.

I agree with everything you wrote right up unti dan 11:36. After that it falls to pieces somewhat. I have an alternative ending. As verses 1 to 35 are details of events as they unfolded i think it harmonizes nicely if we just keep looking at what happened in judaea after the Maccabees. The king of the north - Antiochus and the king of the south - the Ptolemic empire both were incorpoated into the next superpower to conquer Judaea - Rome. So the king in verse 36 was the roman empire. "He" prospered until the indigation was accomplished against the Jews. Wrath came on them to the uttermost because they did not know the time of their visitation. In the Roman-Jewish wars of 70 AD and 132 AD the Jewish nation was cast out of their land. That was the indignation. The romans adopted the persian god mithra in the 3rd century and in the 4th mixed christianity with mithraism. Many bishops were enriched and elevated after constantine who was THE roman emperor. The empire was divided in 395. In 632 a new king of the south appeared and attacked the capital - constantinople aka mystery babylon. The Arabs took much of the territory that had been ruled by the Ptolemies. Then in about 1100 another king of the north attacked the Roman Empire of the east with nany chariots, horsemen and ships. The Seljuk empire was almost identical in area to the Seleucid empire - the first king of the north. The next wave of turks finished off the roman empire. The turks had several wars with russia who tried to take constantinople back. Tidings from the north and east troubled the turks. They thought the Armenians were collaborating with Russia. The Turks were furious and massacred 1.5 million Armenians. The Turks were isolated during world war 1 and came to their end and no one helped them. Dan 11 closes with the fall of the ottoman empire. Then dan 12 ushers in the horrors that befell the Jews in the 20th century and we see the end of all things soon to unfold.

I didn't realise you wanted me to. You've quoted matthew 13 together with Rev 14 and 18. Matthew 13 is about the final harvest as is Rev 14:11. You assume that Mystery Babylon has not been judged at all and will not be judged until the very end. Who do you think mystery Babylon is? I believe mystery Babylon is Constantinople and that she has been judged several times already for her role in the corruption of the gospel. Part of that judgement was her being looted and burned in 1204 by the 4th crusade. She also fell to the Turks in 1453. Her final judgement is still pending. At that point she will utterly fall - into the Bosphorus. Why would the Lord wait 1700 years to judge the city that so utterly corrupted the gospel? Each generation has to bear their own sin. Among the judgements read rev 2:16 repent or I will come against you quickly, or Rev 2:22 I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery into great tribulation unless they repent. furthermore he says they didnt repent. So what judgement did they receive? The spiritual adultery of the church was idolatry. The worship of Mary began in 4th century. I propose that 14 successive plague pandemics that killed 40 million people was part of the judgement they received... but they still didn't repent so the Lord allowed multiple invasions - first the barbarians (rev 8) then two islamic empires (rev 9). The second of these empires is possibly the beast of rev 13:11-18 and the mark of the beast may be forsaking Christ for islam. Six bowls of wrath (i suspect ) have been poured out already - the first seems likely to have been the Black Death. We only know it killed 1/3 of europe but it also devastated the ottoman empire but their records weren't quite as good as the European's. The sixth bowl of wrath symbolized the decline of the ottoman empire - that ended in 1918. Prophecy writers in the 19th century believed the 6th bowl pointed to the fall of the ottoman empire. They didnt believe this 7 year future tribulation that you so clearly adhere to. Nor do I. They still haven't repented so this generation is going to get hammered. Europe has already been invaded and is now embracing ssm and meanwhile islamic attacks will get more violent and more frequent. We are also likely to see more famines in our time as food crops are wiped out by freak weather events. Constantinople aka Istanbul aka mystery babylon is bracing for the next big quake which is due any time. But if you want to believe that all the prophecies in book of revelation are going to be fulfilled at some future date when the church is safely out of the way good luck with that. I don't believe that interpretation is sound. Where are the seven churches in rev 1-3 now? The prophecies were written to them.

But it doesn't say prophesy TO everyone in Rev 10:11, it says prophesy ABOUT many peoples, nations, tongues and kings. There is a big difference in talking TO someone and talking ABOUT someone. John 10 does not mean keep prophesying, John, until we are finished. For example in Rev 6:2-7 the horsemen and the colours of the horsemen was a prophecy about the Roman emperors. There was a big shift in Roman rule beginning with Vespasian in 79 AD where members of the equestrian ranks could become emperors. Before that only senators were eligible to become emperors. The first horseman conquered - Trajan conquered the Dacians and Hadrian conquered the Jewish nation, the rider on the red horse = peace was taken away from the earth. What peace? Pax Romana. The rider on the black horse = a measure of wheat for a denarius. This was considerably more than the price of wheat in 90 AD BUT by 300 AD with inflation and debased currency the price of wheat was much MORE than this. This verse was fulfilled around 200 AD. The rider on the green horse. Green was the colour of the emperors in the hippodrome. The crisis of the third century when the empire had some 50 emperors in 50 years, suffered multiple plague epidemics as well as famines and war. The population of the empire plunged. Look for coins from this era. Many carried images of horsemen. Google equestrian Roman coins. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=roman+equestrian+coins&client=tablet-android-telstra-au&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZk-CK56TWAhXFy7wKHa8QDukQ_AUIEigC&biw=1024&bih=768 The Christians were blamed for these calamities and what followed was 10 years (Rev 2:10) of savage persecution. Rev 6:9-11 Rev 1:3 the time is near... Rev 1:19 write what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. John was writing about 1900 years ago. What was future for him is not necessarily future for us. Revelation is addressed to 7 churches in the Roman province of Asia, that is western turkey now. Where are those 7 churches NOW? What happened to them? Answer that and you'll find the nations, peoples, kings and languages John prophesied about.

Sister Revelations 10:11 you must prophesy AGAIN about many peoples, nations, tongues and kings. Tell me, if you can, what nations peoples, tongues and kings has John prophesied about up to this point? And what nations, peoples, tongues and kingdoms does he prophesy about in the succeeding chapters? According to the historicist view, which i hold to, the first 4 trumpets symbolized the invasion of the roman empire in the 4th and 5th centuries. The goths had a scorched earth policy, the vandals controlled the western mediterranean. Attila was called the scourge of God for the devastation he wrought.

Dan 11:36 You have chosen a very odd name. One blasphemous king shall prosper until the wrath has been accomplished... I think that is the Roman empire as dan 11:9_34 trace the events that happened between the Ptolemies and the Seleucids. The wrath came upon the Jewish nation at that time (who has warned you to escape from the wrath to come. Wrath has come unto them to the uttermost) and the one who pushed at him dan 11:40 (him being the roman emperor who ruled from constantinople after the fall of the west ) was the Arab caliphate but then a new king of the north aka the turks came against him ( roman emperor at constantinople) like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen and many ships. The turks then entered the glorious land and took egypt, libya and ethiopia. News from the north east troubled the turks... suspicion that the Armenians were siding with russia and the turks were furious and annihilated many - 1.5 million Armenians were massacred. But in world war 1 the ottomans - the sick man of europe - came to his end and none helped him. Dan 12 - the 20th century - and there was a time of trouble - especially for the jews - the rise of global antisemitism (see rev 16:13 and rev 12:15 the holocaust) culminating in the birth of the state of Israel - so many prophecies fulfilled there - and tge return of the jews to their land. Where they will be finally delivered from their enemies when they call on yeshua.

Matthew 24:31 And he will send his angels with a sound of a great trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 1 Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a great shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Rev 10:7 But in the days of the sounding of the 7th angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished as He declared to his servants the prophets. Does God, Himself, blow the trumpet that calls us home or His angel? Thess says trumpet of God. A minor detail that is not worth quibbling over. I just want to be there. But i did notice in Rev 10:7 it was days - plural. Whatever this brings it is sure to be a time of trouble for the inhabitants of our planet. I see the return of Christ as the point at which every knee will finally bow and the beginning of the millenial reign. Beyond that eternal reign.

Rev 14:8 Babylon has fallen, that great city, because she has made all the nations drink the wine of her fornication. Rev 17:18 the woman that you saw is that great city city that reigns over the kings of the earth Rev 18:10 Alas, alas. That great city Rev 18:16 Alas, alas. That great city Rev 18:18 What is like that great city Rev 18:19 Alas, alas. That great city There was one city that was a megapolis throughout the christian era that fulfilled all these verses. Constantinople. The queen of cities.

Then it's not 70 weeks. It becomes about 2000 weeks.

Bob Ryan i totally agree with you.

Just to throw my 2c into this mix. i see mystery babylon as Constantinople/Istanbul. I believed she was rome for the first 20 years that I was saved but as i learned more history about the eastern roman empire i suddenly saw how Istanbul fitted all the prophecies of rev 17-18. As the capital of the roman empire this city rode the beast. At least 7 verses state that mystery babylon is a city - not a continent or country or religious system. Constantinople was THE wealthiest city of the medieval world. She was built on 7 hills. She was dressed in scarlet and purple - ie an imperial city She was hated by the 10 horns who burned and looted her in 1204 - Gibbon says she was left naked and desolate. When she was taken by the turks and became a habitation of demons the west wailed and lamented her fall. Rev 18:9-10 Every item in rev 18:11-13 is listed under Byzantine economy in World Book Encyclopedia She is bracing for a major earthquake - rev 18 :21 Any aerial photo shows the city is in 3 parts. Rev 16:19 She corrupted christianity with idolatry from her inauguration by constantine in 330. Rev 14:8 and 17:4 She persecuted jews and any christians that dared challenge the eastern orthodox view of god/christianity. Introduced the death penalty for religious dissent. This went way beyond excommunication that was allowed by the early church. Who will rejoice at her judgement? I will.