justadisciple

Sorry. I may have misunderstood your point and mixes it with other one. I don't have much time now though perhaps later i can go back and read carefully what you said.

I can appreciate your point of view and I am thankful you have communicated now in a more respectful tone. As I said before, I am not a pacifist in the strict sense of the word. I do believe Jesus will return to execute judgement and he has that right because he first laid down his physical life in love for his enemies. Before he comes back, however, he calls us to follow his example to the cross, not his future role (which we will follow later). Now is the time to take up our own cross and suffer if need be in this world. No cross, no crown. I don't see any problem with locking doors. I have already said that I believe that is a valid way of self defense, as is fleeing. It is not the same as killing someone. Having said that I often do not lock my doors even when I am threatened with violence. No need to challenge me. I already live like that. I have no home insurance, car insurance or health insurance. I already quit my job 20 years ago, forsook everything I owned and have been living by faith as a full-time missionary for the last 20 years, having missioned for years in many places including India, Africa, and South America. I am currently in the Philippines. In all that time I have seen some rough things and my life has been in danger more than once, but God delivered me from each situation and will continue to do so till He determines otherwise. I do not agree with much of your position. I do not think it is consistent with the spirit of Jesus' teachings nor the example he set for us to follow. But I do not want to debate the issue any further with you. In the end we each have to be true to the highest revelation of God's will as we understand it and give our accounts to Him.

I agree. I too believe that most of what passes as pacifism is cowardice. Nevertheless, Jesus showed us that true love for others, turning the other cheek, laying down our lives for our friends, being innocent as doves, and following in his footsteps, taking up our cross is the ultimate act of bravery. Christian martyrs have shown great strength and bravery too, suffering and giving their lives for the Gospel without taking the lives of others. And Desmond Doss is a great example of how a true Christian who does not kill others can be brave in their commitment to obeying Christ.

I'm disappointed by your attitude, shiloh357, but your reaction does not surprise me, given that this topic is a very sensitive one and I am guessing you have a lot invested in it (ie. you probably own guns and have held this position openly for years, so being willing to soften on it could be extremely difficult for you now). Nevertheless, I do think it is important to look carefully at the flaws in your arguments, just so others are not intimidated by your forceful approach. It is clear that you are not open to considering any Scripture anyone else can present you, as you dismiss every single one with one technicality or another. However, by the very nature of your arguments, you have admitted that you do not have any real Scripture to support it. Your position is not based on something the Scriptures actually say, but on a faulty conclusion. Here is your argument in a nutshell: 1. The Bible says we should provide for our family. 2. That must include providing protection. 3. Therefore it is lawful for Christians to take up arms and use violent and deadly force if necessary to protect ourselves and our family. That's about as close as you have gotten to an argument based on New Testament Scripture. The problem, apart from being mostly based on nothing more than your own reasoning, is that the conclusion in point 3 does not actually follow. There is nothing in the New Testament that justifies you taking up arms and being willing to kill others "in self defense". It is a position based on silence... but the conclusion is in stark contrast to everything else the New Testament says on the topic of violence. On the other hand, I am basing my position on what the New Testament Scriptures actually say on the topic of violence, and so it is a position consistent with Jesus' teachings and the New Testament. It naturally and logically follows that if the New Testament Scriptures consistently call us to a non-violent approach, that a non-violent approach to any situation not specifically covered by Scripture is more in harmony with the New Testament than a violent one. You cannot escape that logical conclusion. Therefore, if there is to be an EXCEPTION to the spirit of the New Testament, it must, of necessity, be clearly stated in New Testament Scripture itself. However, you maintain that any Scriptures that talk against violence are doing so in the context of persecution and not self-defense, and therefore do not apply to defending ourselves nor to going to war, and practically to any other situation that worldly people would normally resort to violence for. But there are several problems there with your reasoning: First of all, Jesus did teach against violence in self defense. He said: Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38-40) There is no mention of persecution there. In fact, Jesus gives a clear example of self defense and he tells us to not resist evil, but to allow people to hit us, and not only that... allow them to hit us AGAIN! Secondly, your approach would be virtually impossible to practice, because you would have to determine beforehand the motivations of the person coming to attack you. So, someone comes in to kill you and your family, but you do not know if they are persecuting you for your faith or if they are just a theif coming to steal. How do you decide when to kill them "in self defense" and when to "turn the other cheek" in response to persecution. For example you defend the right of churches to have armed personnel, ready to shoot and kill anyone that would do them harm... but what if the people doing them harm are persecuting them for their faith? How would they even know? Having said that, I do not believe you are being honest about claiming that Jesus' teachings on non violence apply to times when we are persecuted for our faith. I believe you would feel justified in using carnal weapons even in times of persecution. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that, but everything you have said so far would indicate that you do not believe in turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, losing your life for the Gospel except in trivial ways like "not gossipping back in the work place". When it comes to real life persecution and violence, your approach is "it is nonsense to allow others to kill you and your family, therefore it is okay to use carnal weapons to defend ourselves". You dismissed my analogy of selling cocaine on the grounds that that activity is illegal, whereas owning guns (in America) is legal. That doesn't make sense. What about selling Marijuana? It is legal in some places. Is that okay then? No wonder you have so much confusion on this issue! You think right and wrong is determined by men's laws! Now, I am not a pacifist, at least not in the strictest sense of the word. I do believe that a certain amount of restraining force is a valid option as a response to violent people. And I do not condemn you or other people in the world for wanting to protect yourself and your family, even though I think it is an approach based on fear rather than faith. But my approach is to take Jesus' word and example seriously. He is the example of our faith. He calls on us to follow him, to suffer as he did by taking up our own cross and laying down our lives in humble service to God. And nowhere does he nor the rest of the New Testament justify us in taking up carnal weapons and be willing to kill others in the name of self defense. That is just a carnal approach to trying to save our fleshly lives, instead of seeing the real spiritual warefare that happens between good and evil. For someone who claims to believe to be in possession of eternal life... why are you so invested in saving your earthly one at all costs?

Let me address now more of the type of reasoning you provide to support your position... First of all, I can appreciate where you are coming from. I understand your argument, that we are to provide materially for our families, therefore that must include their protection (and here comes your own added teaching...), which means that it is okay to use violence to achieve that goal. You see, it does not follow logically from providing for your family to taking up weapons to defend them. If it did, it could also be argued that it is okay to sell cocaine to earn money to feed my family... and guess what, there is no verse in the Bible you could use to argue against it, because I would just use your own tactic and say that nowhere in the Bible does it mention anything against selling cocaine. Your own argument above about child molestation ironically supports what I am saying: just because there is no verse in the New Testament that specifically mentions "self defense" it does not follow that using taking up arms and using violence to defend ourselves is okay, especially given that the teachings of Jesus do speak of NOT using violence, his very example screams of it, and the rest of the New Testament supports it, as well as centuries of Christian tradition that have honoured Christian martyrs who did not fight people who were trying to kill them. Again, read everything the New Testament says on the topic of violence, and you do not get a picture of Christians being called to take up arms and kill others as a way of protecting themselves and their families. You can argue all the techinicalities you want with it, but it still won't hold. But even if you decide that Christians are indeed "allowed" to kill others in the name of self defense, then at least have the humility to accept that others who are trying to take seriously what Jesus said about turning the other cheek and loving our enemies do have a Scriptural basis for their belief that is not based on silence, but on what Jesus and the New Testament actually says.

shiloh357, I do not expect you to agree with me or with others on this issue, but I do ask that you change your attitude towards us. You keep telling us that we know nothing of the Scriptures, that what we are saying is nonsense, etc., when we are actually sincere Christians who are trying to do God's will and submit to Jesus' teachings, even when they are not convenient... even when it may mean losing our lives for the Gospel. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus or in the whole of the New Testament that justifies anyone in taking up arms in self defense. I hope you would be honest enough to agree. You have pretty much admitted that your position is not based on anything the New Testament actually says, but based on what it does not say (ie. "since nobody can provide a verse to prove that it is wrong to take up arms in self defense, it must be right"). But there are two serious problems with this approach. 1. Every time someone does present you with verses which clearly speak against using violence, you claim it is invalid for one reason or another and does not apply to self defense or to Christians. 2. You not only justify your own position on the grounds that no verse in the New Testament against the use of violence mentions the words "self defense"; but you also accuse those of us who DO base our position on what the New Testament says of somehow being out of sync with the Scriptures, being irresponsible and preaching nonsense. I ask that you reconsider your attitude towards Christians who disagree with you on this, given that we actually have Scriptural grounds for our beliefs. You don't have to agree with us, but it would do you good to at least see that your position is not as solid as you think it is.

Jesus worked on the Sabbath and said that those who work for God on the Sabbath are counted innocent. Just as Jesus deepened the other commandments (don't kill to don't be angry, don't commit adultery to do not lust after a woman you are not married to, etc), he deepened the Sabbath commandment by showing us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, because what God really wants is love and mercy and not religious sacrifices. You ask "what constitutes good works"? That's like the Pharisee asking "who is my neighbour"? You don't have to ask the question because you already know the answer (just get out there and go about doing good like Jesus did, loving others)... unless you are looking for some legalistic framework whereby it can be established what is the minimum amount of good that can be done or some basis by which you can judge others and say "you are not obeying the Sabbath because you..." The whole concept of the Sabbath from start to finish was about ceasing from doing our own works and dedicating ourselves to God. Jesus cause on us to live out a perpetual Sabbath, to the point that for many of us who serve Christ, we make no distinction between one day or another, because every day is dedicated to serving God.

Well, it is clear we see things very differently. I honestly cannot see how Jesus' teachings and his example (or the rest of the New Testament for that matter) can lead someone to take up arms and kill another person in the name of self defense and then somehow try to teach that this is the correct Christian response to violence, and that Christians who believe otherwise have no clue regarding what the Scriptures teach. _Your position is mostly based on an emotional, earthly argument like: "you would let your family die, and that's unloving and nonsense." I can understand how that is nonsense from a worldly perspective, but not from a Christian perspective. It is the foolishness of the cross, losing your life to gain it rather than losing it by trying to save it. But man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes. Explain to me how you can read the entire New Testament and come out thinking that what God wants is for us to use carnal weapons to defend ourselves and our families. I cannot see how you would come to that conclusion if you did not already have a strong prejudice towards those issues. In a normal discussion, I could present Scriptures to show how Jesus teaches us to overcome evil through doing good, not by responding with violence. And yet if I quote "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" you say, he didn't mean it for all situations and it doesn't apply if our families are in danger. I quote "my kingdom is not of this world, and that is why my followers do not take up arms" and you say it doesn't apply because Jesus wanted to go to the cross. I talk about Christian martyrs, and you say it's different because it is persecution (though I suspect you would condone using weapons in self defense during persecution as well). If I were to quote Romans 12 about not avenging ourselves but overcoming evil with good, I am sure you would say that doesn't apply either. It seems you are determined to rule out every Scripture and historical testimony that speaks against Christians using violence, while at the same time saying that I am the one out of sync with the Scriptures. I can appreciate that turning the other cheek and allowing people to slaughter us like lambs is not easy and challenges us in a very deep and fundamental way. As I said, I do not condemn you for wanting to protect yourself and your family. But if you cannot even acknowledge that my position is at least a reasonable one in light of what Jesus and the rest of the New Testament actually teaches, then there is not much point in continuing with the discussion, let alone discussing other sensitive issues like secular jobs, private ownership and other things that most modern day churches assume should be the norm.

But if we follow that logic, then we should not engage in anything that is "of" this world. We should not own property, hold down jobs, pay taxes...etc. You have a very flawed idea what it means to be not "of" this world. It was Jesus who said, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kindgom were of this world, my followers would have taken up arms to fight and prevent me being handed over... but my kingdom is not of this world." As for owning personal private property and "holding down jobs", I think we should question that as well, given the teachings of Jesus and the example of the early Church. But we are commanded to pay taxes when they are due, so there is no contradiction between paying taxes and Christianity, like there is with going to war using carnal weapons. I would defend my family without resorting to violence. Such a defense could include locking doors or running away. My and my family's understanding of "success" may be very different to yours. Jesus dying on the cross doesn't seem very successful, in physical terms. Neither does the fact that pretty much all of the apostles died as martyrs and did not fight to defend themselves. Nor for the countless others who have died as martyrs and laid down their lives for Christ and others. All of them look like failures in the eyes of the world, but they are a success in God's eyes, because they fought a spirtual war, not a carnal one. The sad thing about trying to protect our earthly lives is that it is an illusion. You cannot protect your life nor your family's life. Thinking you can is deception. You can build the strongest walls, implement security measures and amass all the weapons you like, but at the end of the day you and your family will die, be it from a desease, a car accident or a heart attack. Our only true security comes from doing God's will. I do not condemn you for wanting to protect yourself and your family. But please consider that God himself at least temporarily put loving his enemies over loving his own family (Son) so that we, his enemies, could become part of his family. We do not overcome evil with more evil. We overcome evil with good.

Worldly and political nations will fight worldly and political wars. But w.e are not of this world, if we were, we would take up arms and fight... but we are not of this world... we have been born again into God's Kingdom of love and truth... a spiritual kingdom. I do not believe that military service is compatible with Christianity. However, the movie Hacksaw Ridge showed a possible exception to that rule. I do not condemn people who wish to defend themselves and their families physically. However, I do not believe that using violence as a means to achieve that defense is a valid Christian response in harmony with the teachings and example of Jesus.

Fair enough.

I am not confident of that definition of a cult. I mean, practically every church has "added extra things to our faith" and yet they are not usually accused of being a cult.

I am a Christian, a disciple and follower of Jesus. How would you define a pacifist?

They are in different countries around the world. I have visited one of their communes for a couple of days, and have had members of the group visit our place as well. I don't know enough about them to say if they are an "evil cult". They were very friendly with us and I saw a fair bit of sincerity in many of the members even though I do not agree with a lot of their teachings and practices (particularly the whole O.T. focus, their belief that God cannot speak directly and individually to people, them believing salvation only comes if you are a member of the group, etc.). There is a lot I disagree with them on, but I did not see any evidence of it being a dangerous group.

One of the central messages of the New Testament is that there is no such thing as a "Christian nation" in terms of a political entity. The Kingdom of Heaven and the "Kingdoms of this World" are at odds with each other. As Jesus said, "if my kingdom were of this world, my followers would have taken up arms..." Political nations are no more Christian than church buildings are. You could say that some nations have some rules which are more in line with Christ's teachings than others, but then you have to be clear on what those teachings are. For example, can it be said that America (or any other country for that matter) is a "Christian country" when it takes up arms and fights wars, contrary to the teachings of Jesus? What would interest me is to hear from others as to what aspects of America as a political nation do they think are actually Christian, and how those aspects relate to what Jesus taught in the Gospels.