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  1. What?? don't tell me you are one of those that still look up a root word of the actual word used and switch over to the meaning of the root word rather than the one used by the writer.....or worse-substitute a different word for the one in the sentence of discussion! ä-po-stä-sē'-ä Feminine of the same as ἀποστάσιον (G647) 2 Thes 2:3 ä-fē'-stā-mē From ἀπό (G575) and ἵστημι (G2476) Luke 2:37 etc. Got a license for that? Except that the translators actually used the usage of the same word, as did the dictionary compilers. C'mon Coot, you really did stay focused of proving pre trib, I'll give you that. Well I think I am not having a problem with honestly staying the word actually used on the page of manuscript. I don't try to mash another word or version of it into the discussion. We can learn accuracy/honesty for the school of God's Spirit. Well I don't think you mean you found the man of sin in the O.T. But in earlier posts, your theory didn't hold up to scriptural scrutiny. Which is why you avoided them so avidly. Nah, not at all. The pre trib teaching does that to itself all by itself.
  2. Of ocurse it does Coot....WHEN YOU TRY TO JAM A DIFFERENT WORD IN THAT WASN'T ON THE PAGE!!! Please, STOP IT! but this makes the point. The vast majority of passages that use the aphistemi verb form of apostasia reflect a physical, spatial departure. It is no different than using the word "run" as a noun or a verb. It can have similar meaning. Aphistemi and Aspostasia, Of course it does Coot.... WHEN YOU ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE LIKE A PINBALL, IN CITATIONS THAT ARE NOT ON THE PAGE UNDER DISCUSSION. Please, TRY TO STAY FOCUSED!!! in the NT, 4 times have an illustration of a spiritual departure and 13 times as a physical, spatial departure. Of course Coot, WHEN YOU FLOOD THE EQUATION WITH A WORD THAT WASN'T EVEN USED!!! Please, LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!! in favor of a physical, spatial departure. Also in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, there is a definite article that suggests that what is being talked about is a singular, one time event... "the departure" Even if one views the passage as "falling away", there has been many departures or "falling away" from the faith over the centuries. Falling away is a not a singular event that one can point to that definitively is a marker to show the next phase is the revealing of the man of sin. And that has the definite article "the" also. "the" man of sin. Not a generic men of sin if one maintains a consistent interpretation in the verse by using "falling away" in a general sense. This is further evidence that the verse is speaking of a one time singular event of the departure. Again, given the context and the examples of the word forms of apostasia and aphistemi used, the reasoned assertion is that it is speaking of the physical departing of the redeemed before the man of sin is revealed. The verse says this will happen first, the man of sin will be revealed. The Greek "kai" in the verse has a meaning of a secondary conjunction. It could very well have been translated as "then" in the passage to more definitively show that the man of sin is revealed after the departure. The "and" usage in KJV, NKJV, and others can have the same intent. For instance, let's say I was speeding and I got a ticket. Obviously, the actual speeding and receiving the ticket were not in the same instance. The are joined by "and" but in a 1-2 fashion. One had to happen first before the other did. If the one didn't happen first, then the second one would never have. The very same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The departure will happen first and (then) the man of sin will be revealed. Nothing wild eyed here. Just using simple grammatical and literary principles to make the case. Paul's letter to the Romans is studied even in secular literary classes in college for its profound structure and style. Paul was a extremely learned man that wrote with a precision that is still being emulated today. I am just applying the same principles in viewing his letters to the Thessalonians. It is becoming more difficult to believe you don't see what you are doing. I ask about one thing, you talk about something else. That is not the way to have a conversation. If you think that your command of these things is to be used like blowing up a balloon and letting it go, it is the opposite of a discussion. It is ignoring simple, easy to understand portions of scriptures-in context-found in multiple places- in context- with supporting examples of usage- without being full of contradictions. But I have seen this style before used by people who maintain the pre trib theory. Tell you what Coot, write back to me about the the simple connection in 2 Thes. 2:1 and 2:8. Let me know how it goes with just 2 sentences, not very hard to do. I hope your ego wasn't hurt, I only mean to have a REAL discussion with you and wanted to sternly remind you of what a discussion is.
  3. I have done no such thing. We need not fear a mere dictionary. And as anyone can readily see for themselves in the partial list provided (largely excludes non biblical references) the word usage and context cannot be denied. Whereas modern authors need to shuffle the cups on the table and take it to Latin on its way to a way NOT used in SCRIPTURE. Dictionaries/lexicons cannot get away with forcing 2nd or 3rd meanings to the top. The "interpretation" as you call it (but really isn't) is laid out by adhering to the rules used by all interpreters. It is clear that M, Strong stuck with scriptural usage as a guide. You will not be able to refute that. The truth does not need an appeal to authority, (on the list of logical fallacies) but is, in its purest form plain for even the lowly to see. So enough diversion, Paul said in that passage we will be gathered unto Him when He destroys the man of sin!
  4. From Strongs Exhaustive Concordance: Apostia ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647 G647- divorce, repudiation a bill of divorce ἀποστάσιον, -ου, τό, very seldom in native Greek writings, defection, of a freedman from his patron, Demosthenes 35, 48 [940, 16]; in the Bible: 1. divorce, repudiation: Matthew 19:7; Mark 10:4 (βιβλίον ἀποστασίου, equivalent to סֵפֶר כְּרִיתֻת book or bill of divorce, Deuteronomy 24:1, 3; [Isaiah 50:1; Jeremiah 3:8]). 2. a bill of divorce: Matthew 5:31. Grotius at the passage and Lightfoot, Horae Hebrew at the passage, give a copy of one. So it is easy to see through the sleight used by some pre trib sites/books to find the GREEK meaning AND the intent of those English translators. Nothing to do with the rapture. So as I was saying, (and let's stick to what I pointed out , please), the passage shows "our gathering together unto Him" in connection with His coming. And it shows the man of sin's destruction in connection with "the brightness of His coming". In between these verses it says the man of sin must be revealed and make a blasphemous appearance to mock God which would be included in that man being revealed. He must do the mocking abomination first as well.
  5. Hi Coot I'd like to go back to 2 Thes. 2, since I am quite sure Paul's teaching here is Berean approved. Paul talks about "our gathering together unto Him". In the same sentence is, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". Paul goes on to say that the son of perdition must be revealed first. Then he declares that the Lord will destroy him, "with the brightness of His coming". Yet doesn't pre trib teach that the rapture/gathering together unto him will take place BEFORE the Day when Jesus destroys this enemy?
  6. The sheep/goat judgment has common elements in it as the GWT judgment: such as it is a judgment, not a battle, eternal destruction awaits those who are not righteous/in the book. Two different descriptions of the same things. C'mon Coot--No resurrection at the S& G judgment? The judgment that condemns people eternally and declares the righteous passage to eternal life can ONLY take place after resurrection! Rev. 11:18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Rewards to prophets/servants and dead being judged requires resurrection. Hmmm, a misplaced word....yeah. Well they are two different contexts you are mashing together. One scenario is of people that are standing before the throne of Jesus and the other is of Gentile nations attacking Jerusalem being dealt with by the Lord in battle. Can't miss it. No need to be so hyper, I never said such a thing, you are creating a distortion or cannot follow meanings. I repeatedly brought before you the words of Jesus about Noah and Lot (and other verses). You wouldn't so much as acknowledge this teaching but tole me that-- I -- was falling short of a requirement to provide certain O.T./N.T examples you wanted. Jesus wasn't enough for you. I predict you still won't admit He is right. (looking for a way out?) I told no lie. My brother, there are no hard feelings on my part. You don't have to reply if you feel the need to drop it. I consider the common pre trib dogma something that should looked at as the Bereans practiced. I understand the theory and have pointed out immovable contradictions, but nothing I say is meant in any way to hurt you. I am clumsy and very direct at times but never is there anything but brotherly love for you and all the family of God.
  7. So are you saying that the angels will NOT gather Christians, but instead Matt 24 is about a gathering of Jews to the valley of Jehoshaphat? Col. 3:12- Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;, Titus 1:1- Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 1 Peter 1:2- Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Off topic Off topic You have failed to address the fact that people in Matt 25 are being sent to everlasting life and everlasting destruction, as revealed by Daniel and seen in Rev. 20. They are from all nations. Jesus said ALL nations will be gathered before the great white throne...that would include those from the nation of Israel. Believe the scriptures. So there are the goats (unrighteous), the sheep, who Jesus calls "the righteous", is there another group, extra righteous? A different rapture/ resurrection? One can ONLY appear in this scenario if they are righteous. So the "third group IS here. They ARE the sheep. All those who have died or been raptured will be in ONE place at ONE time. There are NOT two raptures and three resurrections. But I have asked you to address this before. How do those from teh tribulation make it to their place in Rev.7 and Rev 20. If you hold true to your pattern you will change the topic again. Impossible! Those from the G.T. are seen in Rev 20, about to reign for 1,000 yrs. Will you deny this? Will you create an extra rapture/ resurrection? Joel 3 has no great white throne or people being cast into eternal life etc. The angels (mighty ones) are sent down to destroy the armies from the nations that are in the valley to approach Jerusalem. They are judged in battle, meaning defeated. The judgement in Matt 25 is NOT in battle, but it matches that of Rev 20-the Great White Throne. You haven't shown a correlation, these are two different matters. You ignore the vast differences. Even angels are called "elect" so a mere word game won't work. And when JESUS shows the correlation from the O.T.(Noah and Lot), then makes a declaration of things that were NOT shown in the O.T. because He IS the N.T.....you refuse to acknowledge Him!!! Although you chose to ridicule of me in your post, I will not return the favor. There is a great deal of diversion/obfuscation here. The same pattern in avoiding what was brought up in 2 Thes. 2:8, the declaration by Jesus about Noah and Lot, and now this. You simply run from these truths and immediately point to other matters out of context.
  8. That is not true: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." And this another dodge from the passage I showed you in Luke--which provides the true intent of Jesus in His statements of Matt 24! He doesn't talk out of both sides of His mouth. Angels are plainly seen in this passage taking HIS ELECT. And it happens to be at the time of all those cataclysms and matching Rev.6 with Jesus being seen above. The redeemed are His elect-the church, want see some verses that confirm this? In Noah's day, (and Lot's) God's people were delivered ON THE DAY that the judbment came down from above. Again, with the sheep and goats there are two groups. One enters eternal life and one is sent to destruction. You can only go to these places after being raised from the dead! Your version does not agree with the scriptures. BELIEVE the scriptures. So you think that God rejects believers, even when I showed you that they are before the throne in Rev. 7 and they are seen in Rev. 20 as well!? I say again, if they are not afforded ALL that the Gospel promises, it is another gospel! Just off topic, again. The Lord indeed has great overarching purposes, but to say that the bride is just a side bar of the bridegroom is beyond laughable. But this provides another fine demonstration of how putting a pet teaching to a supreme position distorts. Believe the SCRIPTURES.
  9.  Well, how about the way JESUS is plainly DECLARING???--He follows it by saying, "it will be just like this when the Son of Man is revealed." I am pretty sure He knows what is relevant. AND the topic being discussed. Reading more into it? You mean quoting JESUS? (In His own words in the same context.) I think the shoe is on the other foot. The righteous out of the tribulation are seen here:- And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. BELIEVE the scriptures.
  10. Do you not remember JESUS giving two examples from the O.T.? Noah and Lot! If you are trying to disqualify JESUS , good luck with that. He IS the N.T.!!! Wheat and tares Fish and net Sheep and goats These are all about eternal destiny, not about getting another chance in the millennium- that is J.W. rhetoric. In each parable one group is cast into fire/ destruction. In the sheep and goats teaching, Jesus specifically explains it saying: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Nowhere does He speak of repopulating anything. but pre tribbers cannot help but force the scriptures into their ideology rather than BELIEVE the scriptures. Believe the SCRIPTURES.
  11. The point is: JESUS taught that in both cases, God's people were delivered on the day that the judgment from above came down.
  12. Hi Coot, I haven't made any references to the Torah being irrelevant, etc. I cannot understand why you make such an assertion I Quoted Jesus, quoting the record in Genesis (which you are staying away from) pertaining to prophecies in the future regarding the second coming/rapture issues. You are going off topic for some reason. And yes the previous time I brought it up you lectured me about not having two witnesses, then declared "case closed". Please address in detail the things Jesus said about Noah and Lot in relation to "when the Son of Man is revealed".
  13. What is it? Can you define it? Where is it found in scripture? I have seen plenty of references in scripture about our home in heaven etc. But some people put up charts that show the tribulation followed by the Millennium, followed by "the eternal state". What does THAT mean? where is it found. I mean I may just have missed it and need that to be cleared up.
  14. Except for when I tried to quote two examples used by Jesus- you made the same speech about not being qualified...Jesus? JESUS gave two examples from the Torah. Noah AND Lot. In both cases the people of God were NOT delivered..."until the day", "the same day" that the judgment of God came down from above. "Even thus shall it when the Son of Man is revealed"
  15. Rev. 20:11- And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ( fled away...=sky departed, moountains and islands moved) (for them to hide) Rev.6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15- And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: So they actually see the throne! This is at the end of the tribulation.
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