Joulre2abba

I'm not qualified by ordination to encourage you, but I'm qualified by my own experiences of difficulties in life to encourage you. You have done well in holding fast unto our Savior even through all the problems, troubles and difficulties you've had. But we are not meant to endure in our own power. In your own power you'd just as soon not have been born. But because of God's love, you were born, because of Jesus crucifixion and because you heard the gospel, you got saved. So go from there and don't wish for what didn't happen (you're not having existed). What is the difference between you wishing for that, and a mother telling their child that she preferred that the child not have existed? There isn't much difference. You are not loving yourself in the same way that that mother didn't love her child. Because you initially accepted God's love for you. Stay in that love. That is loving yourself as much as He loves you. And He loves you more than you could ever love yourself. Let what the apostle John wrote be yours "We have known and believed God's love for us." 1 John.4:16. And this one "How great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called His children and so we are." 1 John 3:1. When we pray to God, we need not tell Him our troubles because He already knows about them. Talking about them during our prayer time will not make them go away, but instead keep things at status quo.. or even intensify our troubles. Saying them however much that you do is planting another row in the garden. They'll sprout and grow and more troubles will be happening to you. A rule of thumb. Don't talk about what you don't want to happen, but talk about what you do want to happen (within God's will and promises to us that He delights to cause them to happen) because God watches over His word to perform it. Jeremiah 1:12. So we are to instead return to Him His word that He sent to us. Isaiah 55:11. His word sent is like seeds for us to sow in our own garden of faith. His will is that we say what He already said about us. What He spoke is His will for us. So when praying, pray according to God's will. According to the apostle John in 1 John 5:13-15 that's when God hears us.. not that he doesn't hear us when we fellowship with Him, telling Him what troubling thing happened each day.. but God is waiting to hear us speak His will.. concerning His comfort to us, to encourage us, to bring His favor into our lives. And therefore we can know that He will answer us, and we shall receive from Him what we asked for or requested. As long as we stay in faith and doubt not. When your circumstances are not pleasant or anything to be cheerful about, then begin to quote scripture verses concerning gladness and joy and peace to prevail in spite of circumstances. Psalm 42:5 says "Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why the unease within me? Put your hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him for the salvation of His presence." Psalm 94:19 "When anxiety abounds within me, Your comforts delight my soul." Jeremiah 15:16 "When your words came, I ate them (that is comparing eating natural food that satisfies the body with speaking God's word and one's heart being satisfied by it) .. "..and they (God's words) were (are) my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty." ... When you get up each morning quote the scripture "This is the day that the Lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad in Him." Psalm 118:24. It doesn't matter if you don't feel joyful at the time. When you speak these often, your feelings will eventually comply. Remember that before you confessed Jesus unto salvation you were a sinner, and so you became born again. Before Abraham was a father he spoke what God said about him, that he was the father of many nations. And so he became one. When you speak your list of troubles, they act as magnates to cause more troubles and problems in your life to happen. So instead say what the Psalmist said in Psalm 5:11-12. "Let all who take refuge in You rejoice; let them ever shout for joy. May You shelter them, that those who love Your name may rejoice in You. For surely You, O LORD, bless the righteous; You surround them with the shield of your favor." Being righteous is who you are in Christ Jesus. So acknowledge boldly what Jesus has made you. Honor Him in accepting His work done for you. As 2 Cor.5:21 said "For He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us, that we become the righteousness of God in Him." And Eph.4:24 said "Put off the old self and put on the new self that is created after God in righteousness and holiness." ... Here are some other scriptures to rehearse.. Psalm 91:1 "I dwell in the secret place of the Most High God and abide under the shadow of the Almighty whose power no foe can withstand." (amplified version of the Bible) Psalm 8:1 "From the lips of children and infants You have ordained praise on account of Your adversaries, to silence the enemy and avenger." When you are praising God .. it's like the devil gets a duct tape slapped over his mouth. Isaiah 54:17 "No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the LORD’s servants, and their vindication is from Me,” declares the LORD." Psalm 23:6 "Mercy and goodness shall follow me all the days of my life, and when my life is ended I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever." And lastly, concerning those who've spoken unkindly to you.. we are to do God's will and forgive. This is not an area of consulting one's feelings to see if forgiveness is possible. This is an area of the loved child of God telling those feelings to humble themselves to God's will. Jesus taught that when we pray asking God for anything.. we are to forgive those who've persecuted or offended us. In Mrk.11:25 Jesus said "Forgive if you have ought against any." Eph.4:32 said "Forgive as God in Christ has forgiven you." And Eph.5:1 says "Imitate your heavenly Father as children imitate their parents. Again, don't let feelings keep you from saying the words. "I forgive that person. In the name of Jesus I forgive." Or words along those lines. Then you could quote "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, Your kingdom come. Your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation (troubles, trials, adversities).. but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom, the power, the glory for ever and ever. Amen." The phrase, "our daily bread" is referring to daily Bible devotional reading.. which is our study time with the Lord, as we take His yoke upon us and learn from Him. I do hope that these will give you encouragement concerning your life. I'm praying for you.

A person sharing their own personal experiences concerning the matter goes a long way in relating with others who've also experienced it.. either directly or indirectly.. it's far better than using the experiences of others as any example. I suggest that next time... you start with your personal experiences. And if you use the examples elsewhere that you did here.. use a warning alert first so the person will be able to prepare him or herself and decide if they want to read such potentially disturbing examples. Thank you for your consideration.

That is a narrow view of why people commit suicide. Speaking only of that reason is disrespectful. I'm assuming that you are distant from anyone you know or care about that has actually done it. The portion I've snipped out was expressed in my opinion a distant, and clinical manner. For anyone of sensitivity it would frankly be disturbing and difficult to read.. I had to skip through much of it. Please be mindful that you're posting to someone who's family member was in such deep despair that he went through with such a violent act against himself. More was snipped. When those of the old testament ask that God remove them from their mortal coil, they aren't metaphorically holding a blade to their necks that sort of image is too comparative to what an enemy would do; which is violent and accompanied with fear. What they speak of is something far different than that. They are speaking of God giving them "the kiss of death".. which means that God "takes away" their breath. Which means that that they just simply stop breathing.

Paul was teaching the believers what to do concerning unbelievers. 19 "Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 On the contrary, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." That is along the lines of what Jesus said in Mat.5:43-44 (posted below). It still remains that Paul and Jesus are saying the same thing.. whether the other person be "enemy" or "combatant". Jesus said in Mat.5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute or mistreat you." Those verses have to do with war.. God was telling the Jews to fight in battle against an enemy in warfare. Which is entirely different than your list that you argue we are not required to extend God's love to.. telling them that God loves them and offers redemption and salvation to them. And so Jesus said in Mat.7 concerning the lawless man, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." Why? Because of all the things he boasted that he did in the name of Jesus, he did not say that he was redeemed by the name of Jesus. But John said in 1:12 "But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God." And so for them it is said in 2 Tm.2:19 "Nevertheless, God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity.” John also said in Jn.6:37, "to anyone who comes to Him in repentance.. He will in no wise cast out." How is "the list" going to know that there is a place for repentance unless a Christian operating the ministry of reconciliation tells them? that God is not holding any sin against them. (it doesn't add there "except for rapists, murderers and villains") Why are they told? Because it says in 1 Tm.2:4 that "it's God's will that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (it doesn't add there "except for rapists, murderers and villains") We are not to make a list of certain sinners and declare them to be unredeemable. They by their will of choice have to be permanently hostile to redemption when they hear it for those verses to apply. We are not supposed to put a certain list of sinners in that category. We are by the scriptures directed as ambassadors of Christ and the ministry of reconciliation to offer redemption to all. Because God so loved the world, all, that He demonstrated His love to all sinners in giving His beloved Son for all, that all may be saved. (Jn.3:16; 2 Cor.5:18; Rm.5:8) They have to reject.. we are not to single out a list and say that God automatically rejects those on that list and refuses for His grace to abound toward them. You are cherry picking in order to make a case that God does that. Yet the scriptures speak of God's mercy and grace toward all. They.. according to you, are those on your list. But God doesn't make such a list. Whenever the wrath of God came upon sinners in the old testament, that was back then, before Jesus, when none could be saved, none could get born again. The gentiles could only have a measure of inclusion into the covenant of God through the Jews. However, it's not the same for sinners during this age of God's grace. And yet to happen in future, during the Tribulation, the wrath of God will be upon the unrepentant sinner (even those who are not on your list). We Christians during this age of grace should not be so quick to consign the wrath of God upon sinners before they've heard the gospel and repented. David was a Jew wasn't he? Are you? We are Christians - gentiles living under a different and better covenant aren't we? David didn't use your list did he? David didn't live during this God ordained and appointed age of grace, did he? God does not abhor nor hate anyone. God loves the world. In the old testament times the hearts of sinners were hard, yet there were a few gentiles mentioned in the Bible who got on the family list and line of David, and Jesus. So, God didn't abhor and hate all gentiles in the old testament. The word "hate" used concerning sinners is the same word used when it says that God hated Esau but loved Jacob. It's the same word used when it says that Jacob loved Rachel but hated Leah. The word "hate" in those cases is not referring to hostility, but to love in a greater and lesser degree. I don't say so, the Bible says it. The Word of reconciliation to all sinners be the judge. If a Christian is not thinking in line with the ministry of reconciliation unto all, then that Christian isn't following God's or Jesus' example.

In God creating in the beginning, there was discrimination against darkness, and against dysfunction. Historical wealth distribution occurred mostly by one army going to war against another army. Wars caused geographical positioning, sickness, suffering. Why have all these things been happening since the garden of Eden? Because that's when sin came into the world. According to the apostle Paul, this world has satan as it's god. Jesus said of him that "he comes to steal, kill and destroy." So, if you're looking to pin the tail on the donkey, the devil is your target.

You see what they did as a civic duty. I get that. I'm saying otherwise. You don't get that. Concerning the purpose of God's plan of salvation, to provide redemption for every sinner.. God makes no difference in sinners by measure of sin. I see though that you make a difference. But you haven't yet given a scripture to support your opinion. This is not an opinion but a record of events that occurred in the old testament. The situation where God said he'd kill (wipe out, consume, destroy.. whatever thesaurus synonym would be appropriate) all the sinners who made a golden calf and worshiped it while dancing in merriment. But then He did the complete opposite in letting them live. Why? Because God is big on love. God is big on grace. God is big on goodness. God is big on mercy. God told us to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. God so loved the world and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, we are to plead in Christ's stead to the sinners, no matter what measure of sin they've done.. that God is not counting against them their trespasses / sin. Because where sin abounds (I'd say that's talking about the witches, murderers, burglars, rapists and all other villains).. God's grace does much more abound. The pharisees taught the law that would say "death to all witches, murderers, burglars, rapists and all other villains".. but Jesus taught mercy. Jesus said to them ".. he that is without sin cast the first stone." They in the righteousness according to keeping the law realized that they were not without sin, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." All sinners are in the same boat, there is no first class, second, third, ...... rock bottom unredeemable class. The apostle John wrote ".. to anyone who comes unto Him, He will in nowise cast out." Praise the Lord for God is good and His mercy endures forever.

With what you've said here it puts me in a position to defend myself.. perhaps somewhere in the O.P my words or manner of expression was unclear enough that you misunderstood what I was saying. Or perhaps I misunderstand you, but if it's the former.. The O.P. is not "a teaching".. there is no intention of it being a teaching.. it never entered my mind for it to be one. I presented it merely to examine what the collected verses are saying when put together. With the addition of a secular example (unfortunately it's an extreme one). But, if I understand what you're saying, there is nothing in the verses or the secular example(s) that is "putting on people the fear of death". What is "the fear of death"..? Does it mean to be afraid of death? Or, does it mean to seek the option of suicide..? The latter is a great concern for me. Frankly it surprised me when I read that godly people in the old testament expressed death as a possible option. My thoughts are that I will not even allow for that option in my own life. Why give the devil an opportunity to commence to talking me into considering it as an option for the situation? By contrast we have the apostle Paul who'd experienced a lot of difficult situations yet he called it all "light and momentary". I just can't see him requesting God to end the pain of life by compassionately snuffing out his life prematurely. I don't see that Paul was afraid of death. Frankly for my part when anyone under pressure even expresses something like "I'll just shoot myself then, this situation is unchangeable so I just don't want to live anymore." And due to the fact I mentioned that my relative committed suicide.. I am in a continuing process to work out my own anxieties that anyone else would even say such things, or even as the verse in Revelation says.. that they pursue to die with a passionate gusto. I marvel in surprise at that, as well as it troubling my mind. So you see, if I'm understanding your words, I want to assure you that I am as far away as anyone can be to even hint at putting on people the option of death. Heb.2: 14-15 "Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in bondage by their fear of death." ------- Rom.8: 2-3 "For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh." Rom.8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Gal.5:1 "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of bondage." Rom.8:15 "For you did not receive a spirit of bondage that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" 2 Cor.3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." 2 Tm.1:7 "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind."

I'm willing to make allowances for your opinions. May we both be blessed according to Ps. 119:130 The entrance of God's word brings light and understanding to the simple.

Since it was their job then why would Jesus think that he must forgive them? Jesus wasn't addressing a question of them performing their civic duty.. he was addressing their sinful condition.. after all, he was on the cross as the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. The point is that witches, murderers, burglars, rapists and all other villains are "the world" that God so loved in sending His Son to take the punishment for their sins. They all need salvation. Or else we'll all have to conclude that God isn't loving enough to include them. The Bible said, "Where sin abounds, (God's) grace does much more abound." God will not let the big-sinners be greater than His love capacity. Therefore we are all in the position of stretching our idea of God's love capability to what His measure truly is. You are saying that God sees a difference between nominal sinners and big-sin sinners. But the scripture says that God's will is that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. That is what makes the good news of the gospel so good because it includes such big sinners. Regardless of whether any of us should think that they deserve such big-love from God or not. It is marvelous in our eyes how great a love the Father has bestowed upon all the world.

You didn't define what the unforgivable sin is. But if I'm not mistaken, you consider it to be murder of another. That's a broad swath because that would include people who've had abortions.. that would include the woman to whom it was performed, whoever forced the pregnant woman to get it, whoever advised it, whoever supported it, and ultimately the doctor who performed it. Does it then mean that none of them are candidates for salvation through Jesus Christ? I've not heard that kind of theology or doctrine preached before. But I have heard from preachers that God forgives abortion. There is no where in the Bible that states that it's right for Christians not to forgive a murderer. When Jesus went to the cross to pay the punishment for our sins, murder was not excluded. Yes, murder is a civil crime and should be punished to the fullest extent of human law. But God's law of love says to forgive. And I've heard the occasional testimony from those who forgave the one who murdered their beloved family member. The apostle Paul himself was classified as a murderer when he sought out the Christians to put them in jail where they'd rot until death. He was on the road to Damascus to find more. But when Jesus spoke to him, he repented and after some years of training, he became an apostle of Christ. The apostle Paul writes that he had held the coats of those who stoned Stephan. Could that be called a murder? Yet Paul also said that he'd met with and spoken to Stephen's family. Did they not forgive him? If you don't see it that way, then we disagree. The unforgivable sin, as I understand it.. is to be a mature Christian who has experienced the level as the apostle Paul, but then to decide to turn away from God and embrace sin to it's fullest. For such a person there is no further redemption for them because they've made their decision out of maturity and knowing full well the consequences.

Yes. It does. Concerning my grandfather, he didn't (to my knowledge) let on what he had in mind. A person will decide to make it private, or decide to make it public. Sometimes the wording that's used makes it hard to tell the difference if a person is speaking seriously or if they're metaphorically expressing the pressure they feel at the time. Like saying "I'll just shoot myself then." If you don't know the person well enough.. their demeanor, their general attitude from day to day.. then deciding what they mean makes it less worrying. I suppose I hadn't thought of suicide as self-murder as opposed to killing oneself. By explanation, the commandment of God is "you shall not murder" although it's rendered "you shall not kill". If God meant "not kill".. then God would have violated His own rules in requiring the Israelites to go into battle where people would die. Murder is what Cain did to Abel. Abortion is murder. I hope this is not thought of as disagreement, I did not intend it to be. I've talked with unbelievers on many occasions. They know well about hell because they use the word to speak profanity or express the dislike of someone by telling them to "go to hell". I've told them that they will go to hell by default if they do not accept God's love for them through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ for their sins. To them, the word "default" was as if I spoke profanity. Some nuts are harder to crack than others. Their squeaky wheel needs a lot of grease. James Taylor wrote a song that had that phrase in it, as he sang about showing the people that you love with with love. I'm not saying that I always have, but it's a good sentiment.

Yes. The wording gives the thought that they tried more than once to commit suicide but were unsuccessful.

Yes, we can all I'm sure, testify to the difficulties inherent in living.

The matter is not whether it's possible to love satan.. because we are not in the Bible told anywhere that we must. But the matter is about our loving "the children of the devil".. which are enslaved willingly or without realizing that they do his bidding. The declaration of Jesus is that "God so loved the world that He gave His only beloved Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." We are not to love satan, but to love those whom satan has blinded in darkness.. from out of which we all were at one time or another. We've been given the ministry of reconciliation; that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not counting against them their transgressions. When Jesus was on the cross.. put there by the Romans, because of the false testimonies from the Jews. (that is not a justification for making the Jews God's enemies) .. because Jesus while there on the cross, suffering the penalty for the sins of all.. said to God "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." If anyone put Jesus on the cross.. we all did. But if we must indict someone.. it's the devil whose behind it all. Jesus is our acquittal, our redeemer, and He told us that we must take up the cross and follow Him. To do so, is to love, and forgive all. That however does not include forgiving the devil. Because there is no redemption for him.

Cognate: 2271 hēsyxía (from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – quietness, implying calm; for the believer, 2271 (hēsyxía) is used of their God-produced calm which includes an inner tranquility that supports appropriate action. This term "does not mean speechlessness, which is more directly indicated by 4602 (sigḗ) (J. Thayer). See 2272 (hēsyxios). 1 Pet.3:4 "..but from the inner disposition of your heart, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in God’s sight." In Mat.11:29 Jesus said "..for I am gentle and humble in heart." So speaking calmly and gently is not necessarily a gender issue.

‎I've heard family members who aren't saved say something along these lines when in a moment of emotional upset. I'm not in any way criticizing or minimizing their emotional state at that time, just stating a fact. But it did prompt me to research regarding the issue. In Rev.9:6 it says, ".. but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them." I've always read it thinking that they seriously took action that would result in suicide but were by God kept from being successful.. but today I saw it differently. See what you think about this. I now see the possibility that they are at the point that Job was, 6:9 "I wish he would crush me. I wish he would reach out his hand and kill me." * Jonah 4:3 "And now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live." * the person was, in 1 kings 19:4 "..while he himself traveled on a day's journey into the wilderness. He sat down under a broom tree and prayed that he might die. "I have had enough, LORD," he said. "Take my life, for I am no better than my fathers". * the person in Numbers was, 11:15 "If this is how You are going to treat me, please kill me right now--if I have found favor in Your eyes--and let me not see my own wretchedness." [Note to whoever it may concern: If the link is not appropriate then please do remove it.. and I do apologize in advance for including it if it was wrong to do so] This movie clip also expresses it.. Arnold Schwarzenegger was in Predator. "just kill me now!" ------------------------------ If you'd like to post your comments .. I will not disagree with you at all.

(the following is more bulleted thoughts than anything else) * Jesus said, the words I speak to you are spirit and life.. the flesh profits nothing. This goes along with what you have said in differentiating between academic knowledge of the scriptures versus the spiritual revelation of God's inspired Word. * I consider it an important clue to read the Word of God the way that the Ethiopian eunuch read it.. then it would be read in the way that God intended, because the ear has to hear. * As Jesus said, he that has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says. * Our faith is to be arm and arm with the work of the Holy Spirit revealing His Word to us. As it is written, faith comes by hearing and hearing the (rhema = spoken Word) of Christ. --------------------------------------------------- I am in agreement with much of what you've written. I do not however intend to engage in discussion about it.

When Christians enter into prayer on an intercessory level, then yes, we can willingly join with God in praying that His will, not our will or desires be done. However, when our prayers are to make personal requests of our hearts desire, then we pray according to God's will., then we know that He hears us, and so we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him. God gives to us what we want when our desires are in line with what God has of His best for us. That sounds like the arrangements of the pagans with their idols. The relationship that we Christians have with the Father is not a slave relationship. It's a loved son to a loving father.. and a loving son to a loved father relationship. A son has a greater and better, closer and more intimate relationship than a slave/master relationship. God is a good God, a good and loving Father, therefore He has for us all that is good in His sight. And we should want all that is good in His sight. When we want what He wants for us, then He wants what we want. We both want the same thing. Then we both get what we both want.

The verse is useful when embarking on any kind of relationship. Don't be friends with, don't date, don't marry an unbeliever. Be acquaintances with or fellow employees with, or next door neighbors with unbelievers.. those are permitted. A way of finding out where you are.. if you have trouble interacting with family members who are unbelievers .. then don't try for having unbelieving friends, or date unbelievers, or marry unbelievers.

Either way.. the post is quite long. An eternal one. I would not be in agreement with him either. There's the presbyterian church sign that says "There ain't no hell" And just down the road there's the baptist church sign that says "The hell there ain't". Southern baptists call hell "an eternal, conscious punishment". They are known for being "hellfire and brimstone" preachers. I have not been aware that there is any other kind of baptist.. so if not for the internet I likely would not have known. I myself am Methodist in background. I do not agree with any modern changes in doctrine however. You have stated that you don't hold to the "branched off theology". The conditionalism of eternal punishment is outside of what the Bible states. Those who promote it have stated that "there is a growing number of evangelical Christians who reject the majority doctrine of "eternal conscious torment". It would mean that the growing number don't believe the straightforward doctrines taught in the Bible anymore. It would seem that you have a different view on what's normative by which you make your claim. The distinction is in the terms refered to within the account that Jesus spoke of "upper region = paradise" which Jesus called "Abrham's bosom".. and "lower region = torment". In order to think that there isn't any distinction, one would have to discount what Jesus said and reclassify or re-identify what Jesus said. I for one would not do such a thing while others allow themselves that way of interpretation which veers off from the truth and and into what is not truth. The right way to read it is to keep the context and environment described. The distance is the factor. For Abraham spoke of "a great gulf betwixt we here and you (the rich man) there." To seek to use any verse that agrees with one's veered off thinking is not correct exegesis. As said previously "hades" is merely the Greek word for the Hebrew word Sheol which refers to the nether region. There is nothing in scripture to support that statement. Or would that interpretation be the case with the antichrist, the false prophet, and all wicked sinners as well? That they aren't getting punished in a firey hell but they just happen to be in that environment. That dog won't hunt. So as to nullify the purpose of an eternal punishment? There are such things as supportive references, my Bible is full of them. However, it's not likely that any Bible worth it's salt will use the veered off verses that you and those do who promote conditionalism. You would have to consult the editors, publishers of my Bible. But I'd take the challenge and say that "chaff" is comparative to "stubble", and "barn" is comparative to the gatherings of the harvest. Which compares with the "gathering" done concerning the saints in the rapture. The saints therefore standing before Jesus who inspects our works wether they be of precious or unworthy fruits. The context of the verse references are obvious to be speaking of those things. The Holy Spirit and fire burns off the unrighteousness to purify the "temple" dwelling place of the Holy Spirit which is the inner-being of the converted. To those who are unrepentant sinners in hell, the unrighteousness remains, the sinner unpurified. Therefore they remain in hell for eternity. Matthew 3:12 did not use words to indicate that it refered to sinners, therefore to believers. Mat.18:8-9 is speaking to believers. The apostle Paul wrote that the believers were willing to pluck out their eyes (gal.4:15). Mat.25:41 is said to sinners. Mrk.9:48 is to sinners. No, I said that Mat.13:40-42 is of the sinner while Mat.3:12 is of the believer. While you said that they are the same, speaking to the sinner. The difference is glaringly clear, but you choose not to see that. I thank God that I will not experience such a thing, so I don't waste my time in imagining it. But that verse proves against the sinners being reduced to ash because they weep and gnash their teeth over their mistakes for eternity. None who are burned to ash could do those things. How different that you with your conditionalism, don't. We know from the account of the rich man and Lazerus that those who do unrighteousness do not just die. We know that they are tormented unendingly. There's no hope of it ending not even if any righteous person could give water to quench that torment for even a small space of time. The only hope is to believe the Bible and believe in Jesus the Son of God and Savior from sin and death. The numbers are not connected with any Bible book name so they are unusable as attempted references. I will not take the time to go on some extended hunt to match them up appropriately. For fairness sake, they are discounted as support for your conditionalism. Perish is refering to the physical body.. therefore the destruction process of it. However, the Bible clearly indicates that people who die still exist either in hell or heaven. So your way seems to be to make a point by ignoring all that is said about "perish and eternal punishment", but the apostles speak of eternal punishment.. therefore the apostles understood Jesus when he said in Mat.25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." And Mat.25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." And Dan.12:12 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." There is only one way that the scriptures "fit".. hint.. it's not your conditionalism way. In the context of John 3 Jesus is focusing on what change is wrought when believing in him. But in other verses he states the eternal punishment factor. If it seems to you that I indicated that the wicked live forever out of John 3, then that's a signicant achievement that even you are aware of. Let's be clear here. Conditionalism requires eisegesis, while reading the plain text that there is eternal punishment for the wicked is exegesis. I used "oblivion" in respect to "non-existence" which is what you claim rather than what the Bible states of eternally existing punishment for the wicked. If you are not conveying that then why do you avoid or ignore "eternal punishment"? Did I? Did the apostle Paul indicate that it would occur on that day? The issue of when was not my purpose for using the text. As I said, I didn't say when it would happen so one wonders why you bring it up as though I did. On the contrary, many of the posts have been going over ground that has already been covered. So I'm not interested in continuing further. Jude 7 says "They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." To read that then say that it means something else is called eisegesis (reading into the text). I use your example. Yet you have stated in this post that you don't do it. It's not a matter in dispute so the statement and one verse reference is all that's needed. Examples from a natural physical sense but also useful from an eternal punishment sense. The Bible itself is evidence concerning eternal punishment. Jesus in recounting the incident of the rich man and lazerus said that Abraham pointed to the Bible as all that's needed for anyone to know about an eternal punishment to avoid. You are putting the emphasis on what can be naturally observed. I used the verses because they spoke of eternal punishment.. which can't be seen. In this post you said. "So if you are responding to the argument that the destruction and death language of the Bible means “to annihilate” or “to go out of existence” then you are responding to claim I do not make." When Jesus or any other speaks of punisment after death the word "eternal" is always used. And is always meant to be there. Only one who accepts the unbiblical conditionalism will state as you have been doing. How can anyone still worship what has been destroyed? That would not be possible. So the application of the "present tense" is to be elsewhere, not on an act of worship. You said however, "2 Peter 6 is telling you what the future eschatological punishment of the wicked will do to them – burn them to ashes thus condemning them to extinction." If you were, then you wouldn't be contradicting yourself as you've done. That the Bible doesn't teach... it says "eternal punishment" which means consciousness to experience it unendingly. The physical body at death has to be buried, it doesn't go to hell. Therefore destroy in hell does not mean "kill". The rich man in hell (Lk.16:14-31) had thirst, he felt the torment. Abraham never told him that he'd soon be out of his misery because he was getting his just due of eternal punishment. In one verse it uses the word "kill" regarding the body but not the soul. In the second verse it uses the word "destroy" regarding both soul and body in hell. So, "kill" is not synonomous with "destroy". Therefore Jesus is talking about two kinds of life. 1. physical temporal 2. spiritual eternal Both eternal existence in either hell or heaven. At death the physical body ceases to function. As does the awareness of the brain. On a medical aparatus it registers as dead. Therefore the destruction of the spiritual body, and the corruption of the soul can only occur in hell. You said, "Words like apollymi (to destroy) are applied to things like wineskins, which ae said to be shredded." Exercise that rule concerning yourself. .. saying that "kill" and "destroy" are synonomous when they aren't. There are two verses in Mat.10:28 with differing meanings. That's clear because of the two different results. I've already stated that the physical body is not in hell so it can't be speaking of "the whole person". The mistakes due to your presuppositions are not resulting in accuracy of conclusion. The Bible clearly states "eternal punishment" which cannot be carried out if the wicked sinner is "killed" in hell and therefore not experiencing any of the punishment for eternity. Yours is the unbiblical "idea" that seeks to ursurp over the knowledge of God stated by Jesus, and the apostles.. all getting their knowlege from God himself via the Holy Spirit. John 11:26 is surrounding the topic of death therefore Jesus is assuring the person that though the righteous person physically dies they will be raised up to eternal life that is free from the troubles of the world. The topic of what happens to the unrighteous dead are not in view in that conversation. So you are reading into it that he was saying that only those who believe will live forever. If I was to read into it, I could say that every time Jesus talked about eternal life it was an unsaid reminder that those who don't believe will be in hell experiencing eternal punishment.. based on those scriptures where he did speak of both the believers to have eternal life and the unbelievers to have eternal punishment. With everything you've said I've responded with verse references to prove what I say. So the proof is already there. If you are talking about cut/pasting Hebrew or Greek and the translations, that is not my method. Therefore it's not appropriate of you to require it of me. As a polite request on your part, I take priviledge to decline. If you don't follow with what I do post then I suggest that we discontinue posting each other. Due to the function of this kind of posting it's not immediate as to whether I commented on the book of Revelation alone, or whether I meant any scripture in the new testament as well as the old. Since Beale sounds accurate in that statement it boggles me as to how you come up with the interpretations that you have concerning the scriptures discussed that are not out of Revelation. I don't know either one of them so I couldn't comment either way. As far as it goes, there is a second death for the wicked so in that sense the "eternal punishment" is suspended during the time that all are standing before the Great White Throne Judgement. However the Bible in no way indicates that their resumed punishment isn't eternal. Like I've already stated, the topic has been suffiently covered to my satisfaction. Perhaps I should have right up front stated that I would only post three replies at the most. Beyond that is beyond what I'd wanted to do. Excuse me for not saying anything sooner. My excuse it that I'd begin replying with saying that in mind, but then it would slip my mind when it came time to push the "submit reply" button. May you find another to discuss this topic with to your hearts content if that much is what satifies you.

In light of all of the many articles on the internet that speak on the subject, your statement can only be described as a succinct opinion that has very little or no doctrinal weight on the matter.

The context decides whether a text is to be read literally or metaphorically. There is a danger to read a literal meaning as metaphorical because that opens the door to what Peter calls a private (not inspired of God) interpretation.. which you are doing in saying that the wicked don't live forever or exist in the torment of hell forever. That sort of idea has to be read in there without any scriptural support for it on literal or plain reading terms. If any of the Bible teachers and scholars I accept to be teaching sound doctrine suggest to read and follow Rev.Beale's teachings then I might consider it, but until then I stand on what I've learned from them and my own Bible studies with the Lord.

And, you are entitled to say that. I clearly do not agree with you. I have been addressing them. But that is not to say that I must follow your lead. Answer your own "and". You apparently equate "destroy" with complete cessation of the spirit of man. However that is your invisible insert. Mat.3:12, 13:40-42 does not teach that "complete destruction" by your interpretation is in view. Mat.10:28 ".. are unable to kill the soul.. fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Unless and until you can give more detail of it's meaning.. I would take the position that it remains in dispute that you are using it correctly. Question: how is the body destroyed in hell? [scriptures?] Question: what is the soul exactly?.. how is it destroyed in hell? [scriptures?] Question: using any number of scriptures (Eccles.12:7; Job 32:8; Prov.20:27; 1Thes.5:23) that specifically mention the spirit of man.. it apparently isn't destroyed in hell. That entire thing confuses me as to who wrote what. What I put there isn't supposed to have an "and" after it. When you're arguing from the verse you cite make sure you include the relevant detail. The wicked do not what? Dan.12:2 "the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt". John 5:29 "those who did evil deeds to a resurrection of judgement." A superfluous additional verse in the midst of repeating previous verses already covered. The verses of "eternal destruction" .. don't mean as you erroneously interpret "not live forever".. but it means "destruction of the wicked is ongoing for eternity".

I see that I need to clarify. I appeal to the new testament texts as Paul and the other writers of the epistles appeal to the old testament texts. Or, I appeal strictly to the revelations within the new testament that the old testament doesn't have. They might not quote each other, but they don't write any disagreements either. None of them authored any of the branched-off theologies that are spoken of as gospel today. The new testament authors exhibit a development or a revelation on a theme. The matter of language still speaks loudly and clearly in what Jesus said concerning the rich man in hell being conscious of torment just as Abraham in the upper region was conscious in paradise (Lk.16:25). Mat.3:12 His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Gathering the wheat, but burning the chaff is an effect occurring to one group of people. Compare 1Cor.3: 12-15 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. It is "the wood, hay and stubble" of the righteous that is burned up. Neither Matthew nor Paul is talking there about what sinners experience in hell. Mat.13:40-42 is talking about what sinners experience in hell. The difference is evident by using "tares".. "stumbling blocks".. "those who commit lawlessness". And "weeping and gnashing of teeth". None of those words or phrases are in Mat.3:12 or in 1Cor.3:12-15. John 3:14-16 I would add vs 17-20. In vs.16 "Those who believe shall not perish, but have eternal life." As I understand it, hell is eternal just as heaven is. Therefore those who don't believe remain spiritually dead and upon physical death go to the eternal existence in hell, until the White Throne judgement, then are sent back for the second death in hell. The word "eternal" should be obvious as to it's meaning. If destruction means a total cessation of existence then the word "eternal" should be changed to oblivion. I'll just use abbreviated quotes in the remaining scripture references. 2Thes.1:9 ".. eternal destruction".. not eternal oblivion. Jude 7 ".. exhibited in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire".. implies continuous. 2Pet.2:5-6 ".. condemned Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes" is only speaking of the once alive people who physically were citywide cremated. The word "eternal" is not mentioned. Rev.14:10-11 The words "tormented" and "forever and ever".. "having no rest day and night". How does anyone get "unconscious" from that? Rev.19:2-3 "He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality. And her smoke rises up forever and ever." It would seem that God isn't concerned about air pollution.

I was making a word comparison. It's unfortunate that you didn't see that. I didn't claim that the worms and fire consume the living. You have misread what I said. Indeed they are. You are thinking that it's wrong because you at some point have misread what I said. You base your statement on having misread what I said. These verses below should clarify it. While a sinner is physically alive they are spiritually dead (Eph.2:1) Eternal punishment only happens when a sinner is physically dead (2Thes.1:8-9).