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Da Puppers

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  1. Septuagint: Four Times: Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 1 Maccabees 2:15; Jeremiah 2:19. Every time it means apostasy or rebellion in a religious or political sense—never used as a spatial or physical sense. Koine Greek Literature: In Moulton and Milligan’s, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-Literary Sources, it is demonstrated that this term is only used in the political or religious defection sense—again, never used in a spatial departure sense (pp. 68–9). Further, even pretribulationist scholar Paul Feinberg admits, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” He is correct. Classical Greek: The classical Greek Liddell and Scott lexicon lists the primary meaning of apostasia as “defection, revolt”; and “departure, disappearance” as a secondary meaning. The only example of this secondary meaning of spatial departure is found five centuries later after the New Testament. It is sloppy and simply fallacious to read back, not only an obscure meaning but one that is five centuries after the New Testament! Patristic Greek: The standard Greek lexicon for Patristic Greek Lampe has the primary meaning of apostasia as “revolt, defection” and gives only one example of a spatial departure. This one instance is found in a NT apocryphal work on the tradition of the Assumption of Mary. Again, outside of the Koine period dated to the later 5th century A.D. So what do we make of all this lexical evidence? Here are the documented lexical facts: There were five Greek sources examined. The most weighty and important sources are in the Koine period, the New Testament and the Septuagint–not a single instance does apostasia carry the meaning of “physical departure.” Instead, every instance has the meaning of religious or political departure. The last two sources—Classical and Patristic Greek—are the least weighty and important because they are the furthest removed from the New Testament. There were only two instances from these sources that have a physical departure meaning—and both of these examples are dated late well into the 5th-6th century. This is why one will not find the “physical” (i.e. spatial) meaning in standard New Testament lexicons. BDAG defines this word as “defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” BDAG‘s predecessor Thayer Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Brown) Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (Balz) A third appeal to the cognate verb So how does the pretribber respond to these lexical facts? This is where the desperate leap takes place. We have done a responsible thorough examination of the noun apostasia demonstrating that the term does not carry a “physical-spatial” meaning in the Koine period. The pretribber will make the leap by pointing to the cognate verb form of apostasia, which is aphistemi, which means “to withdraw, remove, depart, leave.” It is used 14 times in the NT and is used both in a spatial and non-spatial sense. This is where the leap happens by assuming that the verb meaning carries over to the noun meaning. E. S. English succinctly states the pretrib reasoning: “since a noun takes its meaning from the verb, the noun, too, may have such a broad connotation.” Davey goes further saying, “Since the root verb has this meaning of ‘departure’ from a person or place in a geographical sense, would not its derivatives have the same foundational word meaning.” Enter the cognate and root fallacy. Cognates and roots is not the way any responsible exegete determines word meanings (Imagine reading the newspaper this way. Or love letters!) Instead, word meanings are determined by semantic range and its usage in context. Even Feinberg rejects this naïve method when he comments on this specific word: “the meaning of derivative nouns must be established through their usage.” (emphasis his) Perfect case in point: aphistemi Apostasion is a cognate noun to this verb, which only means “divorce or some other legal act of separation.” Apostater another cognate noun which means “one who has power to dissolve an assembly” or “to decide a question.” Since these derivative nouns do not contain the meaning of a spatial or physical departure (as the pretribber will not argue), there is absolutely no basis to assume that our target noun apostasia does as well. In other words, the pretrib cannot have their lexical cake and eat it too. It is first rank special pleading. The fourth appeal: context Since the semantic range does not include “physical or spatial departure” it is moot to even evaluate context—unless someone wants to argue that this is the only instance within 500 years that the term means a “physical departure”! Nevertheless, let’s argue context. To interpret the word “rebellion” in v. 3 as the “rapture” does not comport with the context, and as we will see it makes Paul unintelligible, even humorous. First, Paul is making a contrast of what precedes and what follows. The “gathering” (rapture) and parousia/day of the Lord is what follows (“For that day will not come unless”) the rebellion and revelation of the man of lawlessness. The pretrib view would have Paul in essence saying, “The rapture cannot happen until the rapture happens” But Paul is clearly marking certain events as signs or conditions that must take place before Christ’s return. Second, Paul does not simply mention “rebellion” (apostasy) and leave it at that. But the verse begins with Paul’s exhortation, “Let no one deceive you in any way.” This is followed by “For,” which in this case is called an “explanatory hoti (ὅτι).” That is to say, Paul is connecting the exhortation not to be deceived with the fact of rebellion and the man of lawlessness being revealed. In addition, some pretrib teachers have attempted to argue that since there is an article “the” before “rebellion” it indicates that the Thessalonians were familiar with some previous teaching by Paul. This is baseless, since they have to assume that it refers to the rapture. It is classic begging the question. But what does the context show us? Since this word in the Koine period always meant a “religious or political departure” should we then not be surprised that Paul makes references in this very context to “the truth” and “the Christian faith”? Indeed, he does: v. 2 “not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed” v. 3 “Let no one deceive you in any way” v. 10 “they refused to love the truth” v. 11 “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false” v. 13 “through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth” v. 15 “stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” In addition, the rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness are not two disconnected or unrelated events, but should be seen as a two-fold unifying event: “first” refers to both of the events that must happen before the day of the Lord. And what is the connection between Antichrist and the apostasy/rebellion? “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9–11. I recognize that there are other viewpoints of who actually apostatizes: My own position is #2 because I believe the immediate context in chapter 2 of the Antichrist’s activity informs us of the identity of the rebellion. Nevertheless, this is not particularly essential to my point in this article. Here is the big picture: The pretribulational “Physical Departure” argument fails on all four levels: It fails on appealing to early English versions It fails on appealing to five bodies of Greek literature It fails on appealing to its verbal cognate form It fails on appealing to context. Even the most noted pretibulational scholar John F. Walvoord did not take this “physical departure” interpretation: In the first edition of his popular book The Rapture Question (1957) he defended the “Physical Departure” argument. But after considering some of these arguments put forth by Robert H. Gundry, Walvoord rejected this common pretrib argument which he notes in his second edition of The Rapture Question (1979). Also, noted pretrib scholar Paul Feinberg writes, “there is no reason to understand Paul’s use of apostasia as a reference to the rapture” (When the Trumpet Sounds, 311). https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/09/11/does-apostasia-in-2-thessalonians-23-refer-to-a-physical-departure-i-e-the-rapture/ Another point that is (contextually) missed is when Paul says, "that the day of Christ is present". The words "is present" conveys an ongoing issue. I hear of at least two ways that pre-tribbers view those words. 1. The rapture is imminent, 2. They missed the rapture and that they are in the days of Christ's ensuing wrath. Either way implies that it is not a single day that he is referring to, but a period of days. To choose option 1, means that Paul is trying to tell them that the rapture is NOT imminent, which would be contrary to pretrib theology that the rapture IS imminent. And even if he was implying that the Thessalonians DIDN'T think the rapture was imminent, means that the revealing of the man of sin is what is preventing the rapture from happening. From there you would have to contradict the timing of the revealing of the man of sin to take place before the final 7 years and not at the midpoint found in the book of revelation [if you actually did think it was an imminency issue]. If you choose option 2, then you are admitting that the "day of Christ" is actually about days of his vengeance, as referred to in 2 Thess 1:4ff. If "day of Christ" refers to a single day, then it could only be the rapture or the 2nd advent. In which case you are back to a faulty imminency belief, OR , as you pointed out, "the rapture can't happen until the rapture takes place". In which case, this takes us back to the day of Christ being an ongoing issue, and therefore refers to a period of days and not a single day. If, the "day of Christ", is in fact, a single day, then THAT day is not the rapture, but must be referring to a specific day of falling away that occurs, OR, it refers to the day that the man of sin is revealed. Either "day" causes problems for pretrib. I personally see that day referring to a great falling away associated with the great day of tribulation associated with the 6th seal. Others see it as the revealing day of the man of sin. The falling away would refer to both Jews and Christians. To Christians, in accordance with the principles of the parable of the sower. To Jews, in accordance with Romans 11 when the Deliverer turns away (caused to depart from the truths of the law) ungodliness from Jacob. This would agree with Isaiah 6 when it speaks of a great forsaking taking place in the land of Israel. *[[Isa 6:12]] KJV* And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. I personally think that the text of 2 Thess 2 that follows, is that the revealing of the man of sin is part of God's (Christ's) punishment for rejecting the gospel message. This might appear to favor pretrib theology [that the revealing takes place after the rapture] but I don't think God will wait 3.5 after the rapture to begin punishing those that rejected the gospel. The "day of Christ" is in fact the time of his vengeance. "His vengeance" would be the distinguishable vengeance found with the 6th seal: *[[Rev 6:16]] KJV* And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Blessings The PuP
  2. Da Puppers

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Eventually, yes. But I presented the scripture that shows initially, no. It is directed only at Israel. You fail to grasp the selective judgment of God, as if He is not capable. Paul said that the wrath of God upon the Jew, will bring produce wrath and tribulation [and indignation and anguish] from them. Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing, by the mere fact that the [cause and] effects of God's wrath upon them. Do they work in tandem? Of course, but they are not the same. So what does this have to do with the church missing, not being appointed to be here, in the times of great tribulation. God will be dishing out his wrath, upon the Jews, NOT the great tribulation. It is the result of God's wrath, but not equal to. When Paul said "treasurest up unto thyself wrath", that is man's response to God's wrath being poured out on this initial segment upon the Jews. The righteous judgment of God, eternal life, being conferred, comes in simultaneous fashion as his day of wrath. The simultaneous righteous judgment [at the time of wrath upon the Jews] is unto those who are seeking for, but not yet conferred, GLORY, HONOR AND IMMORTALITY. What is expected of them? Patient continuance! (Hupomone). The two examples from Rev 13 & 14 of hupomone, were not necessarily upon the Gentile arm of the people of God, collectively defined as the church of Jews and Gentiles. But were given as examples of how the bible defines hupomone. Thayer dictionary also defines it as unswerving faith in the midst of one's greatest tribulations and persecutions. So, yes, the have negated your premise that the church will be called upon to experience the great tribulation, even as 2 Thess 1 & 2 defines its purpose: to prove those who are worthy to enter the kingdom. *[[2Th 1:5]] KJV* Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: What constitutes worthiness to enter the kingdom? We are not talking about salvation by works, but rather what will unmask feigned faith from that which is genuine. According to the parable of the sower, they are: 1. Tribulations 2. Persecutions 3. Cares of this life, and 4.Deceitfulness of riches. Concerning entering the kingdom, Jesus dais this: *[[Mat 7:21]] KJV* Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. *[[Mat 7:22]] KJV* Many will say to me IN THAT DAY, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? *[[Mat 7:23]] KJV* And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. What does hidden and/ or protecting Israel during those days, have to do with REMOVING the church. Surely you don't believe that God is going to rapture unrepentant Israel to heaven do you? The very fact that he protected a group of people, HIS people from the effects of his wrath upon others, ought to prove to you that he can selectively dish out his wrath upon whosoever, whenever, wheresoever he wants. That would be like saying that because Jesus spoke of a "future" great tribulation, that it will never come because the future will always be in the future. The expectations of God are the same for every generation. Whether it be the first century Thessalonians or us. The resulting promise of rest from our persecutors, will come to all at the same time: *[[2Th 1:7]] KJV* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: What is the obedience of the gospel? Walking by faith! *[[Rom 8:35]] KJV* Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Blessings The PuP
  3. Da Puppers

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    I would suggest some reading on the righteous judgment of God, Romans 2:1-10;2 Thess 1:1-10; Hebrews 6:10. *[[Heb 6:10]] KJV* For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. In Romans 2, Paul tells us that the day of God's wrath, that begins upon the Jew first, is also the day of revelation of the righteous judgment of God. *[[Rom 2:5]] KJV* But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; I have gone over this with you before. When indignation, wrath, tribulation and anguish comes upon the Jews, that those who are seeking for glory, honor and immortality, to have patient continuance (G5281,hupomone) in well doing. I have also shown you that hupomone is to persevere with faith thru even the greatest trials and suffering. Here is a scriptural demonstration of hupomone: *[[Rev 13:10]] KJV* He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. *[[Rev 14:11]] KJV* And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. HERE is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 2 THESS 1 also speaks of the righteous judgment of God: *[[2Th 1:4]] KJV* So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Blessings The PuP
  4. Da Puppers

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    In reading some of your posts, i think you grasp the scope of things (of the GT) concerning the comprehensive effect upon the whole world, but are a little bit amiss concerning the scope of things that will affect each of the millions of individuals affected. Paul said this: *[[1Co 10:13]] KJV* There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. What WILL make the great tribulation, THE WORST EVER, will be the comprehensive scope of those affected and not the individual tribulations that men will experience. Tell me, what tribulations might we exempt us from that day coming upon the people of God? Death coming slowly or quickly? torture by flame or sword? Jail or prison? Alone or amongst many? missiles or bullets? Tell me, what are we exempt from? Blessings The PuP
  5. Da Puppers

    The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days

    Thanks for explaining. I see things very similar concerning the timing of days. Day 1290 falling in the latter part of the feast of unleavened bread. I used to think that the battle lines between the kings of the north and south was over the land of Egypt, but i now lean more heavily to Syria. Anyhow, i see it as a place of Muslim civil war between the Shia and Sunni. I believe the tables will turn and bring on the great tribulation when they join forces in a mutual hatred of Israel. Blessings The PuP
  6. Da Puppers

    We can know the Day and Hour of His Return

    Though i don't disagree with the premise of the OP, I don't agree with the premise nor the conclusions regarding the premise. The premise is relating to knowing the "time of 'his return'". The operative word is know, G1492, eido, along with knew, , G1097, ginosko. Firstly, one should note is that this concerns the time of GREAT tribulation, the worst in all of human history, even greater than Noah's flood. You say, "how could anything be worse than Noah's flood when only 8 people survived? ". Without the intervention of God to shorten THOSE days of great tribulation, NO FLESH would be saved. The comparison of population in Noah's day to that of that day, is miniscule. An estimated thousand times more people will die in the great tribulation than in the flood of Noah. By sheer numbers alone that future day will be most terrible. The forbearance of God to shorten the days, speaks very loud to the great fear upon men's hearts, that will cause many to perish just from the thought of how terrible it really will be: *[[Luk 21:26]] KJV* Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. It is the hour in which heaven and earth would pass away, that Jesus responds: *[[Mat 24:35]] KJV* Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Jesus said that no man nor angel, knows how bad it will be in that hour. No man has ever experienced any time like it. Not even in Noah's day. Look at what Jesus said concerning the days of Noah: *[[Mat 24:38]] KJV* For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [Jesus was not referring to the 100+ 'years ' before the flood, but the days]. *[[Mat 24:39]] KJV* And knew [ginosko] not UNTIL the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Now we know that the doors of the ark were open until 7 days before the flood. When God shut the doors, the people outside the ark knew that judgment was imminent...7 DAYS BEFORE! The scripture also says that it never, ever rained until that day. Notice Jesus's words again. UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME...! And not "when God shut the doors". When Jesus said that no man KNOWS the day and hour, it is not a quantitative measure of when, but rather a qualitative measure of what the day will encompass. Jesus said that the great tribulation WILL BE the worst ever... and not that it WOULD HAVE BEEN the worst. With or without the shortening of days, it will still be the worst in all of human history. Even yet, it will be instigated by the wickedness of men, and that by comparative tribulations of men, will be the worst in all of human history. It is God's hand that puts a stay on the wicked devices of man. So, yes, I agree with Jesus, when he says "no man knows the day or hour". It is not a question of mystery concerning when, but rather about the what. *[[1Th 5:1]] KJV* But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. Blessings The PuP
  7. Da Puppers

    The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days

    You say that you are: "Considering an entirely different understanding". And I have heard you refer to yourself as a "short tribber". Am i rightly understanding you to mean that the great tribulation occurs between days 1290 and 1335? Could you elaborate some? The PuP
  8. Da Puppers

    SIGNS in the Sun and Moon

    You might try paying attention to the context: *[[Rev 16:21]] KJV* And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. The PuP
  9. Da Puppers

    A place for rapture questions

    On 9/29/2018 at 12:34 AM,WailingWall said: After we are changed in the twinkling of an eye are there any scriptures that directly say we are headin for heaven? How about this: *[[1Th 3:13]] KJV* To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness BEFORE GOD , even our FATHER, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. It says we will be presented before God the Father at Jesus's coming. Blessings The PuP
  10. Da Puppers

    SIGNS in the Sun and Moon

    So why is this: *[[Rev 16:18]] KJV* And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. A resurrection and this isn't? *[[Rev 11:19]] KJV* And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. The PuP
  11. Da Puppers

    SIGNS in the Sun and Moon

    *[[Rev 16:18]] KJV* And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. How would you then explain this being the biggest? The PuP
  12. Da Puppers

    SIGNS in the Sun and Moon

    "It is sure that most of man's works are here on the earth. However, we believers know, we can work for God WHILE on the earth. We can send things forward in time as in transferring things to heaven that can never be destroyed. What ever we do in His will - will remain forever, and cannot be burned. If someone is seldom in His will for their life, most or all of their work will be wood, hay, and stubble. Our reward, as you say, will be on what the fire cannot destroy. " AGREED. Lay up treasures in heaven that don't rot or decay. "We must not forget Revelation's chronology. In thinking about this, are you talking about the Judgment seat of Christ? Do you think that will not come until after Jesus as set up His kingdom? Many people think it will be during our 7 years in heaven." There will be no waiting to receive our reward. Paul said that his coming will bring a crown of (eternal) righteousness on that day. All judgment has been given to Christ. Resurrection of life and resurrection of damnation, John 5:22-27. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye we shall be changed. "the seals are all judgment upon Jerusalem and Israel. Again I disagree. The first seal is the Gospel. Seals 2-4 are Satan's attempts to stop the gospel. Seal 5 are the martyrs of the church age. How we see the seals will determine other beliefs. I would just say go back over the scriptures pointing to judgment upon Jerusalem first; Jer 25, Rom 1 & 2, Ezekiel 5,9,14,16,20,22, 30,36,37,38-9, et al. "Your belief on these seals comes from pulling them out of their 1st century context. You cannot end up with truth when you do not allow context to be KING. How could you even imagine that martyrs - those who are murdered because they love Jesus - are some kind of judgment? God is not judging martyrs!" *[[Rom 8:36]] KJV* As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Need I point out that martyr means to be a faithful testimony/ witness. The gospel spread so fast in the first century because the apostles lived the exemplary faithful life of a martyr. There is no higher calling than to be a faithful martyr. "I cannot yet buy into the shaking of the heavens as being the ONLY shaking. I see the 7th trumpet as FAR MORE violent than the 6th seal. " Remember all the talk of the resurrection of Abraham and the prophets at the 7th trumpet. It's not a rapture, but it is a resurrection, complete with an earthquake. I don't want to get sidetracked here but John's mentioning of voices, thundering, lightning and earthquake speaks loudly to a resurrection event, with the order of mention giving us information about where the event takes place. I agree about the 7th trumpet earthquake being bigger than the 6th seal for 2 reasons: 1. 6th seal is not the rapture... There is a subsequent earthquake associated with that. 2. It is the result of the disdain found in the voice of any angry God. I did some research into this: the rapture/ resurrecting of a billion souls would produce a seismic event of 11.0+. "Suppose I agree that the Hebrew shaking is in fact at the 6th seal. What then follows? What comes next?" Where else in the book of Revelation do you find choice words about shaking heaven? *[[Rev 6:13]] KJV* And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. *[[Rev 6:14]] KJV* And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. *[[Isa 34:4]] KJV* And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. Blessings The PuP Adding this about martyrs: Bring back to your remembrance that the seals are judgments upon Jerusalem. When Jesus spoke of the AOD, he specifically said to flee to the mountains beforehand. These martyrs will be faithful witnesses to the whole sum of Israelites that are there. Remember the tribe of Dan, who is not included in the 12 sealed tribes? *[[Gen 49:16]] KJV* Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Whether it's the tribe of Dan or not, there will be an host of faithful witnesses in Jerusalem when they are scattered into the 4 winds. Want to be a missionary? Lol. Blessings
  13. Da Puppers

    SIGNS in the Sun and Moon

    I can see that you agree that Hebrews 12 is a reiteration of something that is still (yet) to happen... prophecy. Verse 27 tells us alot about when this shaking will take place. *[[Heb 12:27]] KJV* And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. What is unshakeable? The kingdom of God and its fruits of righteousness. Nothing else is mentioned as being unshakeable. When Paul talks about the judgement day: *[[1Co 3:13]] KJV* Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the DAY shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Any thing that remains (gold silver, etc) will remain because thee judgment day fires did not burn it up. He is talking about the souls of men and the truth that we preached unto their "salvation". *[[1Co 3:14]] KJV* If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. If the salvation that we pointed them to was Christ in them, the hope of glory, we will be rewarded for all those souls that we won for him. My point is that it will be judgment day fires, when Christ comes to judge the quick and the dead, that will be the basis for our reward ON THAT DAY. FURTHERMORE, Paul said that the things that are temporal will come to nought by the things that (currently) are not: *[[1Co 1:28]] KJV* And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. The metamorphosis of our flesh will result in the revealing of the staying power of kingdom salvation. It will be our unshakeable faith that will remain true in the fiery trials of life. It is the trials of tribulation and persecution that proves that we have unshakeable faith, worthy of the kingdom. The judgment of the dead (righteous first) cannot happen until both the kingdom and his appearing takes place: *[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Not just one or the other, but both must be true. Forget our differences about when Satan is cast out for a moment. The casting out of Satan is what allows the kingdom of God to come: *[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. I understand why you resist the timing of the shaking of the heavens (with Satan's removal and/ or at the 6th seal). It's because your view of when the great tribulation comes... afterwards. I have not and did not disagree that there is (great) tribulation that follows. But it's because you don't see that the seals are all judgment upon Jerusalem and Israel. I am not going to go thru that again. The various points of view that you hold concerning "events that follow after" arise from that notion and forces you to adapt your views to conform to that point. As long as that is your position, I cannot change your mind, nor do I see any sense in trying to do so. Maybe, next Sept 30, will bring a new day. Blessings The PuP
  14. I find it interesting that the watchman 's duty to the righteous (in Eze 3) is before he sins, and not after: *[[Eze 3:21]] KJV* Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Blessings The PuP
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