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Da Puppers

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  1. When you realize that that "messiah being cutoff after..." means "messiah shall.'cut a covenant (by a blood sacrifice)' at the end of..." , this is what Jesus did with the institution of the new covenant ON CALVARY. But the new covenant is to replace the mosaic covenant of the law, that were the dictates to living in the land promised to Abraham, and had nothing to do with the actual inheritance of the land that will be given to the descendents of Abraham as an everlasting possession. That is still future. So what I see when Daniel 9 says that 'the' covenant shall be confirmed for one week will be the reinstitition of temple sacrifices. Their expelling from the land also meant a ceasing to the temple. The discontinuation of temple rites did not cease at the cross. Becoming unnecessary is one thing, ceasing is another. Because they did not cease when many think that they became unnecessary by the cross, tells me that they are still necessary, even to this day. "Where there is remission, there is no more sacrifice (needed)". I therefore believe that God will confirm his covenant with Israel by the resumption of temple sacrifices for a period of 7 years. This is exemplified in Daniel 9 when it says that the sacrifices will cease "in the middle of THE WEEK". Sacrifices didn't cease at Calvary, they only became unnecessary for those that believe on him. The children of Israel will continue to make sacrifices to God as long as they still need to believe in Jesus, as a nation. Be Blessed The PuP
  2. any understanding that is based on the equivalency of the 1260 days, 42 months and time, times and half a time, is an understanding that is bent to fit an otherwise indefensible theology. But your not alone. It is one of the most widely accepted forms of eschatological abuse. If you were to stick to the chronological orderings given to us by Jesus and John you would recognize that when Jesus said that "the sign of the son of man in heaven" appears after the stars fall from heaven: Mat 24:29-30 KJV Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And THEN shall appear the "sign of the Son of man in heaven": and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. THAT this agrees with what John writes in Rev 12. Verse list: Rev 12:4-6 KJV And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Most everyone recognizes that Jesus is the man child born unto "the sign in heaven of a woman in labor". Going back to our lengths of time, T,T's, half T is either 43 or 44 months (which is a minimum of 1269 days) is longer than the 1260 days that the woman flees and is fed in the wilderness, you would recognize, (in agreement with Jesus) that the birth and/or the harpazo of the man child, IS THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN, that takes place after the stars fall from heaven. If you were to pay attention to the words, instead of bending them, you would see that the woman is protected from the FACE OF THE SERPENT [his fall from heaven] for time, times and a half, and that the woman actually flees into the wilderness at the 1260 day marker. Be Blessed The PuP
  3. All of this goes back to you interpreting the rest of the bible in light of how you understand the book of Revelation. You have to "bend" other scriptures to fit your model of internal understanding of the apocalypse. John, not only uses the same word for word phrase as Jesus did when they refer to the stars of heaven falling, but he even interprets their symbolic usage (to be his a ngels). [Actually it isn't even symbolic, it's just a matter of perspective; one view is from heaven and other is from earth] But you reject both, completely dissociating one from the other to make your imaginary theology work. You need to get back to the real world and leave your lalaland, lamad. Be Blessed The PuP
  4. I hope that you don't think that i haphazardly inserted "GOD " or "JESUS " after the times that you see the word "Lord/LORD" in Psalm 110. My insertions completely agree with the usage of the words, Yehovah, and Adonai. Jesus used that same passage to rebuke the Pharisees that could not comprehend where John got his authority: Verse list: Mat 22:42-45 KJV Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? Be Blessed The PuP P.S. yes I am saying that Jesus comes to Jerusalem with the opening of the 6th seal. This is not only confirmed by Paul but other scriptures as well: Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Jer 25:29-33 KJV For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Joe 2:11 KJV And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Joe 3:16 KJV The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Amo 1:2 KJV And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither. Rev 6:13-17 KJV And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
  5. Here is a compilation of some of my thoughts concerning the overlay of Rev 12 through 14 on top of the events of the seals and trumpets from Rev 6 through 11. Sorry if it is kind of jumpy and not real fluid. I am starting with the relative timing of the AoD and the great tribulation that takes place before the stars fall from heaven with the 6th seal. Mat 24:15 KJVWhen ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21-22 KJVFor then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "THOSE DAYS" refers to WHEN the AoD is seen, which will be followed by great tribulation. Mat 24:29 KJVImmediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: There we see numerous events that are to follow "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS". Mar 13:14 KJVBut when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Mar 13:19-20 KJVFor in THOSE DAYS shall be affliction, such as was not (unparalleled) from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Mar 13:24-25 KJVBut in THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. This was the exact parallel to Matthew where we see the following order of events: AoD, G.T.,Sun, Moon, Stars, Powers shaken. Mat 24:3 KJVAnd as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN of thy COMING, and of the end of the world? The disciples asked for the sign of the parousia/ coming. Mat 24:30 KJVAnd then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven: The Sign is given just prior to (and IS NOT) the coming of Jesus. and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mar 13:26 KJVAnd THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Luk 21:27 KJV And THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. What accompanies his erchomai? Mat 24:31 KJVAnd he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mar 13:27 KJVAnd then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other. Of particular note is the great trumpet that Matthew tells. Because 1 Cor 15 reveals that the kingdom is inherited at the LAST trumpet, the coming of Jesus (with a trumpet) in the O.D. cannot be his coming at Armageddon, BECAUSE it would be a trumpet that takes place AFTER the 7th, making for 2 LAST trumpets. Because the stars falling in Rev 6:12ff is the same event as Satan and his angels of Rev 12, AND, the concluding events of the O.D. (his coming & gathering of elect), matches the 7th trumpet and Jesus's appearance with the 144,000 on Mt Zion, in Rev 14, the coming of Jesus with the trumpet in the O.D. is the same as the 7th trumpet arrival of the kingdom. To build upon the notion that the trumpet of Matt 24:31 is indeed the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 AND the LAST trumpet of 1Cor15, where, in both instances, the kingdom of God is ushered in, let is look at the parable of the fig tree. (Selective verses). Mat 24:33 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that IT IS NEAR, even at the doors. Mat 24:36 KJVBut of THAT DAY and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat 24:44 KJVTherefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man COMETH. THERE I emphasized THAT DAY... IS NEAR...refers to the coming of the Son of man. Mar 13:29 KJVSo ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that IT IS NIGH, even at the doors. Mar 13:32 KJVBut of THAT DAY and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mar 13:36 KJVLest COMING suddenly he find you sleeping. THERE i emphasised THAT DAY... IS NIGH...refers again to HIS COMING. Luk 21:31 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the "KINGDOM of GOD" IS NIGH at hand. Luk 21:34-35 KJVAnd take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. AND in this passage, I emphasized THAT DAY...IS NIGH...is referring to the KINGDOM of GOD. All three accounts say THAT DAY is "NEAR/ NIGH". THAT DAY is both the COMING of Jesus & the KINGDOM of GOD. The details of the Olivet Discourse reveal that that day is referring to the erchomai coming of Jesus [after all these events] and not the parousia. Furthermore, Paul equates the DOTL coming like a thief with Luke saying that it shall come as a snare upon all the earth. 1Th 5:2 KJV For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Going now to the account of the 7 trumpets, with the 7th being the Coming of the Lord with the kingdom of God, we find that the trumpets are the same events found in the book of Joel that precedes the coming DOTL with the coming of Elijah, as one of the 2 witnesses that also is said to precede the DOTL. What we have now shown is that the 7th trumpet is indeed the coming DOTL that will include the coming of the Son of man. What is noticeably absent from the O.D.? The revelation of the man of sin! Or is it? The O.D. states that the powers of heaven shall be shaken AFTER those days of great tribulation. Not only do we have Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven at the 6th seal, but we also have an angel fall from heaven at the 5th trumpet who usurps the authority of the bottomless pit. And because we have Rev 12 through 14 covering this same period of time from the 6th seal to the 7th trumpet, we also have the 2 beasts that rise from the sea and earth, who are given their authority from the dragon, and not God. All of this mimics the words of Paul from 2 Thess 2 in that the man of sin is revealed [JUST] BEFORE the DAY of Christ, aka, the Lord, shall come. 2Th 2:3 KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; What we essentially have is that the 5th trumpet and/or one of the beasts equals the revelation of man of sin is when the powers of heaven are shaken. Not only does Jesus come with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet, but he gathers the elect unto himself to Mt Zion: Rev 14:1 KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Let me interject a couple thoughts. The g.t. is essentially the period of time BEFORE the stars fall from heaven. Dan 7;23 says that the little horn (as one of the 7 heads of the beast, [the leopard has 4, lion, bear and the little horn each are a head), as one of the 7 heads of the beast from the sea, will break the whole world into pieces, ...Thus he said, The fourth beast [as THE 10 HORNS] shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Hopefully you can see that the little horn is one of the 7 heads of the beast with 10 horns that suffers a mortal head wound. Even though 3 horns are uprooted, it is never said to have a reduced number of horns. But then Daniel 7:24 says that ANOTHER shall arise after the first horns: ...And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. This is the beast from the earth that shall subdue the other 3 kings/beasts that arise at that time. And in Daniel 7:11-14 is where we find that the little horn dies and the Kingdom is given to the son of man. So now, turning to Daniel 2:35 we find: ... Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. Here is an important point. It is the coming of the kingdom that breaks the great image into its individual pieces. It is THEN at that time, that this ANOTHER king, the 4th beast from the earth arises, as well as the other 3 beasts, who are then subdued by the 4th beast. This is important to understanding that the coming of the kingdom AND the King at the 7th trumpet, IS NOT at the time of Armageddon. This king arises and continues for (no more than) 42 months that is given to the 1st beast in Rev 13. But what begins to take place is the gathering of the elect from the four winds. Look at the specifics from Rev 14. Jesus is seen on Mt Zion with the redeemed Firstfruits. I would recommend a reading of Isaiah 9, 10 & 11 at this juncture especially 10:20, and 11:10-12. What does this all mean? The great image of Daniel 2 is the last days kingdom of the 10 horns, a conglomerate union of all 4 kingdoms of gold, silver, brass and iron and clay that will unite in their attack upon Israel. AT THAT TIME, the kingdom of god is set up, and this results in the dividing asunder of the individual parts of that kingdom. It is at this time that the 4 beasts arise and the 4th one subdues the other 3. The beast from the earth is the 4th kingdom that springs back to life atter the great image is broken down into its individual parts. The gold, silver, brass, and iron Stand for the kingdoms of Babylon, MedoPersia, Greece and Rome. The beast from the earth has two horns. When the beast ascends from the bottomless pit,( if it is one of those 4 kingdoms) then it must be MedoPersia, because this is the way it is identified in Daniel 8, as a ram with two horns. Be Blessed The PuP
  6. Here it is again: Mat 24:15 KJVWhen ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21-22 KJV. For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "THOSE DAYS" refers to WHEN the AoD is seen, which will be followed by great tribulation. Mat 24:29 KJVImmediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: There we see numerous events that are to follow "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS". What tribulation? The great tribulation mentioned in verses 21,22. Mar 13:14 KJVBut when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Mar 13:19-20 KJVFor in THOSE DAYS shall be affliction, such as was not (unparalleled) from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Mar 13:24-25 KJVBut in THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the STARS OF HEAVEN shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. This was the exact parallel to Matthew where we see the following order of events: AoD, G.T.,Sun darkened, Moon not giving light, STARS OF HEAVEN fall, Powers shaken. Rev 6:12-13 KJV And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the STARS OF HEAVEN fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. You may fail to equate Satan's fall from heaven with the "stars falling from heaven" in Matt 24:29, but it would(is) another matter to dissociate it (Matt 24:29)with what is said about it in the account of the 6th seal of Rev 6. John even interprets his symbolic use of "stars of heaven" to be his angels. Rev 12:4 KJV And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12:9 KJV And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Mat 24:3 KJVAnd as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN of thy COMING, and of the end of the world? The disciples asked for the sign of the parousia/ coming. Mat 24:30 KJVAnd then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven: The Sign is given just prior to (and IS NOT) the coming of Jesus. and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mar 13:26 KJVAnd THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Luk 21:27 KJV And THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. What accompanies his erchomai? Mat 24:31 KJVAnd he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mar 13:27 KJVAnd then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other. Of particular note is the great trumpet that Matthew tells. Because 1 Cor 15 reveals that the kingdom is inherited at the LAST trumpet, the coming of Jesus (with a trumpet) in the O.D. cannot be his coming at Armageddon, BECAUSE it would be a trumpet that takes place AFTER the 7th, making for 2 LAST trumpets. As for your other point about WHEN the great tribulation takes place, you are grasping for something that not only is not there, but there are scriptures that refute your notion of when it takes place. Nowhere do the scriptures say that those souls that were beheaded are the souls that came out of great tribulation. That is strictly the imagination of your heart. I dare you to prove me wrong with scripture. Not only that but Rev 7, BEFORE THE 7TH SEAL IS OPENED SAYS THIS: Verse list: Rev 7:9 KJV After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:13-14 KJV And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which CAME OUT of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. This is in perfect accord with the events that precede the stars falling from heaven with the opening of the 6th seal. Claiming that Michael stands up at the 7th trumpet is again another fallacy of your imagination and a contradiction of scripture. To make the markers of time that John gives us, [1260 days, 42 months and time, times and half a time] all equal to each other, is not only not supported by scripture (but only in your mind) is to find yourself siding without the philosophy of antichrist who desires to change times and seasons. Dan 7:25 KJV And he shall speak great words AGAINST the MOST HIGH, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. When Michael stands up to kick Satan out of heaven, unto the earth for a period of time, times, and half a time, [according to God's ordinances of time for months and seasons], 3.5 years will contain only either 43 or 44 months, and never 42 months. 42 months would be 1239 days and 43 months would be 29 or 30 days longer (1268 or 1269, or on rare occasions, 1270). The imaginations of your heart have gotten you to believe things that are just not true. Be Blessed The PuP P.S. If you try to equate those who are beheaded as those martyrs from the 5th seal, your view of the 5th seal would automatically create a contradiction [because you are then agreeing that the great tribulation takes place BEFORE the opening of the 6th seal].
  7. I think that there is a lot of confusion over the following three phrases: 1. Great tribulation as mentioned in the O.D. 2. Time of Jacobs trouble 3. Day of the Lord. And this Is the point that i made about lamad, that the "tribulation of those days" that is said to be "such as never was", is called the great tribulation AND it precedes the opening of the 6th seal when the stars fall from heaven. Mat 24:29 KJV Immediately after the TRIBULATION of THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: We both know/ believe this to be when satan is cast out of heaven. But the time of Jacobs trouble does not come UNTIL the time that Michael stands up (against Satan) : Dan 12:1 KJV And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. The great tribulation is a series (of mostly unspecified) events. But the time of Jacobs trouble is almost exclusively directed at the people of God, namely Israel. It is also said to be a time like no other: Jer 30:7 KJV Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. But the same thing it's said of the DOTL: Joe 2:1-2 KJV Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. This is what is said of the 7th trumpet: Rev 11:17-18 KJV Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. But this is not to be confused with the wrath of the LAMB: Verse list: Rev 6:16-17 KJV And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB: For the great day of HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand? With the 7th trumpet comes the wrath of almighty God. But the wrath of the lamb comes at the 6th seal. Psa 110:1-6 KJV A Psalm of David. The LORD [GOD] said unto my Lord [JESUS] , Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD (GOD Almighty) shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD [GOD] hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord [JESUS] at thy right hand SHALL STRIKE THROUGH KINGS in the day of HIS WRATH. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. Rev 6:15-17 KJV And the KINGS OF THE EARTH, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the LAMB: For the great day of HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand? The 7th trumpet is when the DAY OF THE WRATH OF GOD ALMIGHTY comes. Be Blessed The PuP
  8. This is a prime example of why you abhor DHC's triangulation methodology. You are relying on your internal comprehension and/ or understanding of Revelation only and ignore the dual witness of Matthew and Mark that says that the great tribulation comes as a result of the AoD and that the stars fall from heaven (the 6th seal) takes place after THAT TRIBULATION. Verse list: Mat 24:15 KJV When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:29 KJV Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mar 13:14 KJV But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Mar 13:19 KJV For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Mar 13:24-25 KJV But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Be Blessed The PuP
  9. I agree with the 3 vision blueprint of the book but under 2 slight variations. [I have been viewing it this way for much of my recent memory, something less than 5 years]. The variations would be to: 1. Putting Rev 15 into the 3rd vision that begins with the 7 vials of wrath. 2. How the 2nd vision overlays the 1st vision and WHY it is a separate vision. Let me explain. The events described in the 2nd vision are what they are and where they are because: the first vision outlines the events that precedes the day of the Lord (DOTL) with the outline of the seals [Rev 4 -7] found in the book Ezekiel and the outline of the trumpets [Rev 8-11] is found in the book of Joel, primarily chapters 2 and 3, with enhancements from the book of Zechariah, et al. The 2nd vision, Rev 12 through 14 (not 15) essentially overlays the events that are covered from the 6th seal unto the 7th trumpet. This also mirrors the events of the Olivet Discourse from Matt 24:29-31. Let me give this brief synopsis now (and explain more in my next post). Matthew and Mark both say that the events found in Matt 24:29, Mark 13:24,25, take place in THOSE DAYS that immediately follow after THAT TRIBULATION. The Olivet Discourse is all about all these events taking place in THIS, THAT, & THOSE. 1. This generation, 2. That tribulation, 3. Those days. Mar 13:24 KJV But in THOSE DAYS, after THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Mat 24:33-34 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see all THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Both Matthew and Mark say that these 4 things takes place AFTER "that [great] tribulation". Be Blessed The PuP
  10. Let me see if I can summarize and simplify. We both ascribe to the authority of the scriptures. Yet we come up with two views, X & Y. In an attempt to clarify your view, you provide scriptures, but without any textual criticism of why we reach differing conclusions. You give your theological overview and then simply say that the scriptures support your conclusion of a non-differential definition of the two terms, parousia & erchomai. But because you give no textual exposition to those scriptures, it comes across as interpreting the usages (of parousia, erchomai) as being your premise rather than supporting your conclusion. Though it would be lengthy to look at all the usages in their context to arrive at a theological conclusion, let me start with this: Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL these things, know that it IS NEAR, even at the doors. As I have already pointed out, what "IS NEAR", is "that day" of his coming/ erchomai. This conclusively shows that the erchomai happens after ALL THESE THINGS (found in the text of the O.D. that lastly speaks of the shaking of the powers of heaven) are to take place, and THEN shall they see Jesus coming/ erchomai with power and glory. To which Jesus also speaks of the parousia/ coming. Verse list: Mat 24:27 KJV For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:37-41 KJV But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. I posted those two quips so that i might now take you to the parallels found in Luke 17. Verse list: Luk 17:22-29 KJV And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. The first thing to note is the (plural) DAYS of the Son of man. And so, Jesus speaks of the DAYS of Noah - Noah entered on one day, and on another day, 7 days later, the flood came and DESTROYED THEM ALL. Did you get that part? ALL were destroyed by the flood. This is one of those DAYS. But now look at the rest of the text: Verse list: Luk 17:30-36 KJV 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Verse 30 is where the mistake is made. What happens WHEN the Son of man is revealed? The mistake that is made is when you look at what was just said, RATHER THAN, what is about to be said. Notice what follows: 31 IN THAT DAY, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, IN THAT NIGHT there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. What happens IN THAT DAY, and IN THAT NIGHT??? ONE is taken and ONE is left. What happened when the flood came? ALL were destroyed. Jesus paints a totally different (second) scenario. Instead of "his coming" affecting everyone, only one - half are affected... AT HIS REVEALING! On ONE of the days of the Son of man, half are affected. On another ONE of the days of the son of man, it affects everyone. Two different DAYS of the Son of man. Simple logic says that everyone can't experience the wrath of God before only half experiences his wrath. And this is what Luke says about that day when Jesus arrives with the kingdom of god: Luk 21:35 KJV For as a snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth. We have Jesus telling us about the two distinctly different days of the son of man... that are like unto the days of Noah. Noah was saved on the day that he entered the ark. On the day that the flood came, they ALL perished. The DOTL (the 7th trumpet) will bring the wrath of God upon the whole world. The revealing of Jesus at the rapture, will bring ruin to all those who rejected the gospel of grace. It is the wrath of LAMB versus the wrath of almighty God. [EDITED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING VERSE:] Rev 6:15 KJV And the KINGS of the earth, and the GREAT MEN , and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the MIGHTY MEN, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 KJV And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the LAMB: Rev 11:17-18 KJV Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Psa 110:1-6 A Psalm of David. The LORD (GOD H3068, yehovah)said unto my Lord, (JESUS H113, adon) Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD(GOD-H3068) shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD (H3068) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord (JESUS-H136, adonai) at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of HIS wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. Do you see the differences expressed here in the day of the wrath of Adonai Jesus, [at the rapture] and the wrath of Yehovah God [In the DOTL]? Be Blessed The PuP
  11. How about Triangulation Squares things up, lol? HERE is some more. Mat 24:15 KJVWhen ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21-22 KJVFor then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "THOSE DAYS" refers to WHEN the AoD is seen, which will be followed by great tribulation. Mat 24:29 KJVImmediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: There we see numerous events that are to follow "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS". Mar 13:14 KJVBut when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Mar 13:19-20 KJVFor in THOSE DAYS shall be affliction, such as was not (unparalleled) from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Mar 13:24-25 KJVBut in THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. This was the exact parallel to Matthew where we see the following order of events: AoD, G.T.,Sun, Moon, Stars, Powers shaken. Mat 24:3 KJVAnd as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN of thy COMING, and of the end of the world? The disciples asked for the sign of the parousia/ coming. Mat 24:30 KJVAnd then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven: The Sign is given just prior to (and IS NOT) the coming of Jesus. and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mar 13:26 KJVAnd THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Luk 21:27 KJV And THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. What accompanies his erchomai? Mat 24:31 KJVAnd he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mar 13:27 KJVAnd then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other. Of particular note is the great trumpet that Matthew tells. Because the stars falling in Rev 6:12ff is the same event as Satan and his angels of Rev 12, AND, the concluding events of the O.D. (coming & gathering of elect), matches the 7th trumpet and Jesus's appearance with the 144,000 on Mt Zion, in Rev 14, the coming of Jesus with the trumpet in the O.D. is the same as the 7th trumpet arrival of the kingdom. Because 1 Cor 15 reveals that the kingdom is inherited at the LAST trumpet, the coming of Jesus (with a trumpet) in the O.D. cannot be his coming at Armageddon, BECAUSE it would be a trumpet that takes place AFTER the 7th, making for 2 LAST trumpets. To build upon the notion that the trumpet of Matt 24:31 is indeed the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 AND the LAST trumpet of 1Cor15, where, in both instances, the kingdom of God is ushered in, let is look at the parable of the fig tree. (Selective verses). Mat 24:33 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that IT IS NEAR, even at the doors. Mat 24:36 KJVBut of THAT DAY and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat 24:44 KJVTherefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man COMETH. THERE I emphasized THAT DAY... IS NEAR...refers to the coming of the Son of man. Mar 13:29 KJVSo ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that IT IS NIGH, even at the doors. Mar 13:32 KJVBut of THAT DAY and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mar 13:36 KJVLest COMING suddenly he find you sleeping. THERE i emphasised THAT DAY... IS NIGH...refers again to HIS COMING. Luk 21:31 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the "KINGDOM of GOD" IS NIGH at hand. Luk 21:34-35 KJVAnd take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. AND in this passage, I emphasized THAT DAY...IS NIGH...is referring to the KINGDOM of GOD. All three accounts say THAT DAY is "NEAR/ NIGH". THAT DAY is both the COMING of Jesus & the KINGDOM of GOD. The details of the Olivet Discourse reveal that that day is referring to the erchomai coming of Jesus [after all these events] and not the parousia. Furthermore, Paul equates the DOTL coming like a thief with Luke saying that it shall come as a snare upon all the earth. 1Th 5:2 KJV For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Going now to the account of the 7 trumpets, with the 7th being the Coming of the Lord with the kingdom of God, we find that the trumpets are the same events found in the book of Joel that precedes the coming DOTL with the coming of Elijah, as one of the 2 witnesses that also is said to precede the DOTL. What we have now shown is that the 7th trumpet is indeed the coming DOTL that will include the coming of the Son of man. What is noticeably absent from the O.D.? The revelation of the man of sin! Or is it? The O.D. states that the powers of heaven shall be shaken AFTER those days of great tribulation. Not only do we have Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven at the 6th seal, but we also have an angel fall from heaven at the 5th trumpet who usurps the authority of the bottomless pit. And because we have Rev 12 through 14 covering this same period of time from the 6th seal to the 7th trumpet, we also have the 2 beasts that rise from the sea and earth, who are given their authority from the dragon, and not God. All of this mimics the words of Paul from 2 Thess 2 in that the man of sin is revealed [JUST] BEFORE the DAY of Christ, aka, the Lord, shall come. 2Th 2:3 KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; What we essentially have is that the 5th trumpet and/or one of the beasts equals the revelation of man of sin. Not only does Jesus come with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet, but he gathers the elect unto himself to Mt Zion: Rev 14:1 KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Be Blessed The PuP
  12. There are three important elements to properly understand what Paul is saying in 2 Thess 2. 1. The words translated as the day of Christ is "at hand" do not mean imminent, as meaning near at hand, but it is the Greek word, G1764, enistemi, which means "is present". Thus, when Paul said to the Thessalonians, "don't let anyone convince you that the 'day of Christ' is present" he is pointing to a period of time rather than a specific day, i.e.,not the rapture nor the 2nd advent. 2. Because, the 'day of Christ' is neither "the coming/ parousia [nor] our gathering together unto him", we must determine the timing of this time of the day of Christ. Because it is a period of time and not a single day, there are essentially two possibilities. A. His coming/ parousia And gathering together PRECEDES this period of time, OR, B. The "Day of Christ" precedes the parousia and gathering together, i.e. post-trib rapture. For option A to be true, it seems that the parousia and gathering together, most likely must be referring to a singular event. In essence this is the view that works for both pretrib and prewrath. Option B is also pointing to the parousia and gathering together as a singular or two events occurring in a contiguous fashion. There is also the possibility that the parousia and gathering together are two events. Let's now look at them being the same. 3. In v.3, Paul says that the falling away comes first and [THEN] the man of sin is revealed. I included the word "then", because of what it says in verses 6 and 8. The word "withholdeth" implies an ordering of events. But this is prefaced with NOW YOU KNOW and finishes with REVEALED IN HIS TIME. The just provided info provides clarity to when HE is to be revealed. The question then becomes WHO is the HE? Because the subject of 2 Thess 2 is the arrival of the day of Christ AND because the Day of Christ is NOT the rapture or the 2nd advent [but is a period of time], the HE that is to be revealed is referring to the man of sin. This means two things. That the falling away precedes his revealing AND the Day of Christ is equal to the revealing of the man of sin. I.e., they are one and the same periods of time. Because Paul began by saying "i beseech you by..." And because we now know that the falling away ALSO precedes that day, we know that all of the events [parousia, gathering together and falling away] must precede the day of Christ, aka the revealing of the man of sin. Now, if one believes that the revelation of the man of sin occurs in Rev 13, at the 42 month mark, then the post-trib view of the rapture cannot be true. But we have not proven that pretrib is right, either, because we have not examined the idea of the equivalence and timing of the parousia and gathering together. Because Paul has introduced us to a third concept, apostasia, that precedes the day of Christ [in addition to the parousia and gathering together] , we can also conclude that it is also different from the parousia and/or gathering together. It does not necessarily mean that departure is an incorrect rendering for apostasia, but only that it does not equate to the rapture. Be Blessed The PuP
  13. Given that your 2nd set of 10 kings appears at the time of Armageddon, this "season and time" that these other beasts have their dominion taken away, [your view of] Daniel 7 must be of the 1st set of 10 kings. Being that this is during the 70th week, this has to mean that the book of revelation is silent concerning their activity during that time. Be Blessed The PuP
  14. In simplistic fashion [people tend to over complicate 2 Thess 2], Paul says that an event called the day of Christ, shall not come UNTIL two other events takes place, HIS coming and OUR gathering together, unto him. [I petition you, by two events, that must take place, before a third event takes place, i.e., the day of Christ. ] The main thrust of the first two events? A departure/ removal... of the ungodly, not the righteous, must take place first. Referring to Romans 11, we see that the Deliverer comes to Zion and removes ungodliness from Jacob, and then shall ALL ISRAEL be saved, calling on the name of tht Lord. What does the day of Christ entail? The revealing of the man of sin! What does that involve? It is God's wrath upon the world that rejected the gospel (word of truth) and had pleasure in unrighteousness. Paul says that they, the rejectors of the gospel, shall ALL be damned by the workings of deceit, the man of sin. The day of Christ is when the man of sin is revealed after the parousia/ coming and gathering together begins. This is the same gathering that Paul mentions in: Eph 1:10 KJV That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: And in the Olivet Discourse: Mar 13:26 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mar 13:27 KJVAnd THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. When you look at the end of the 3 accounts of the O.D., you find the parable of the fig tree. Jointly, these 3 accounts say that "that day" of Christ's coming [Matt, Mark] and the Kingdom being near, happens when ALL of those things have taken place. It is then that the gathering together begins. It's not referring to the rapture because Paul states that it is one of the two things that must take place BEFOREHAND. The kingdom of the beast comes in a virtual simultaneous fashion as when the kingdom of God comes at the 7th trumpet. And as Rev 13 shows, the kingdom of the beast covers the final 42 months. The departure/apostasia of 2 Thess 2 is not of the righteous but of the ungodly. The wrath of God is against those who HOLD to the truth, but walk in unrighteousness. The man of sin is revealed for the sake of those who rejected the truth. They are two different groups of people. One held to the truth unrighteously, and the other rejected it altogether. The day of Christ comes on behalf of those who rejected the truth. There is also a third group of people. These are those who held/ accepted the truth AND walked with righteousness. These are the ones who will be taken in the rapture. The gathering together, in the day of Christ is for those who are "in heaven and in earth". Verse list: Mar 13:27 KJV And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Eph 1:10 KJV That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Those "in heaven" are the raptured saints. Those "on earth" are the elect of Israel, chosen for salvation. Be Blessed The PuP
  15. Let me address a couple of problems that I have with your understanding. 1. You make the association of the false prophet with the beast from the earth. But you see only one person here which is neither a king nor part of a kingdom. What this effectively does is create a third unidentified meaning for a beast. You have the beast from the earh as not representing a king nor a kingdom. 2. You have no identity to the kingdom of the 6th king of Rev 17:10. If you place the identity of this 6th king to John's day [Rome or whatever] this results in a picture of Jerusalem that does not match up with the description that is given in Rev 17, decorated with gold and pearls. If you are looking at a different time stamp for this portrayal of Jerusalem, you need to give a time stamp. So which one of the 7 kingdoms does the beast represent and how does this match up with John saying that this 6th king currently IS. Besides that, John tells us that the 7 heads represents 7 kings, and not 7 kingdoms. To give an abbreviated answer to your question about the identity of the 4 kings. Daniel 2 tells us that Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold... not Babylon. Be Blessed The PuP
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