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Da Puppers

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  1. You are applying congruent logic to things that are not logically congruent. Immortality does indeed imply for eternity. But eternity does not imply immortality. It's the same as saying that all men are humans. But not all humans are men, some are women. The scripture in 1 Tim 6:16 does indeed make that distinction between immortality and eternity, but you are equating/ defining them as equal when they are not. As long as you do that, it is futile to show you the difference. The internal component within the gives the contextual understanding. The man, Christ Jesus, dwells in the light (of the eternal God) that no other man can approach. He is the ONLY one who possesses the IMMORTALITY that can do so. No other scripture is needed to explain the context. The conferment of immortality is a subset of eternity. But the reverse is not true. The truth of scripture is not what men believe about them, it's what the scripture says that makes them true. Scriptures are the inspired words of God, and not the inspired words of men. Be Blessed, The PuP
  2. And you are defining "only" and "immortality" in a hypo-literal fashion that defines the Father as being immortal, rather than eternal. Being Immortal and being eternal are not congruent terms. *[[1Ti 1:17]] KJV* Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Be Blessed, The PuP
  3. How about this: Verse list: 1Ti 6:15-16 KJV Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; WHO ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. If Jesus is the only one who currently possesses immortality, then those saints resurrected at the time of the crucifixion do not. Be Blessed, The PuP
  4. Here is my outline of the 7 times of scriptural end times. 7th month, Tishri: Tishri 1, [yr. 1] The 7 times(years) of the 70th week begins, 1290/1335 days begin. DURING THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD (3.5 years later) 1st month, Nisan: Nisan 21 [yr 3.5] 1290 days end. Nisan 21 [yr 3.5] Sign/wonder, [G4592,semeion] of the Son of man/ woman in heaven appears. Mat 24:30 KJVAnd then shall appear the sign/WONDER/G4592 of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Rev 12:1 KJVAnd there appeared a great [sign/G4592] wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Nisan 21 [yr 3.5] Time, times, HALF time begins. Face of the serpent appears. Satan cast out of heaven. Rev 12:3 KJVAnd there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads... Rev 12:14 KJVAnd to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the FACE of the SERPENT. Nisan 21 [yr 3.5] Michael stands up. Dan 12:1 KJVAnd at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Rev 12:7 KJVAnd there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Dan 12:6b-7 KJV... How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a TIME, TIMES , and an HALF; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Nisan 24 [yr 3.5] Sign of son of man/ woman disappears into the wilderness for 1260 days. Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Nisan 24 [yr 3.5] Two witness appear. *[[Rev 11:3]] KJV* And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. DURING THE FEAST OF WEEKS 1st month: Nisan 24 [yr 3.5] First trumpet sounds. 2nd month(Iyyar) Iyyar 22 [yr 3.5] 5th trumpet sounds. [5 months duration ends with Tishri 22, end of Tabernacles.] Iyyar 22 [yr 3.6] Man of sin appears (42 mo.) Iyyar 22 [yr 3.6] Beast from the earth arises. Exists for Time, times, dividing of time. Rev 13:1 KJVAnd I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Rev 13:5 KJVAnd there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue FORTY and TWO MONTHS. Dan 7:25 KJVAnd he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a TIME and TIMES and the DIVIDING of TIME. 3rd month (Sivan) Sivan 6&7 [yr 3.5] PENTECOST. 7th trumpet sounds. 1335th day ends. The kingdom of God and his Christ comes. Blessed is he... DURING THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES: (3 year's, 4 months later) 7th month, Tishri: Tishri 15-22 [yr 7.0] Feast of Tabernacles. Tishri 15 [yr 7.0] Two witnesses die. End of 1260 days. Tishri 15 [yr 7.0] Woman reappears from the wilderness. Tishri 18.5 (at dawn)[yr 7.0] Resurrecting of 2 witnesses,[3.5 days after FoT begins] Tishri 21 [yr 7.0] End of these wonders, Dan 12:6,7. [Time, times, & half time ends] Tishri 21 [yr 7.0] 7th vial sounds. *[[Rev 16:17]] KJV* And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE. Tishri 22 [yr 7.0] Feast of Tabernacles (8th day) Tishri 22 [yr 7.0] Armageddon Tishri 22 [yr 7.0] Beast and False Prophet cast into the lake of fire. 42 months ends. Tishri 22 [yr 7.0] Shmini Atzerat, A new beginning!
  5. We can see this time in the book of Matthew. Matt 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. We can also see this time in the book of Revelation. Rev 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? When Michael stands up, it says "and at that time thy people shall be delivered" We can see the people being delivered in Matt 24 when God sends his angels to gather his elect from the four winds. There is a rapture. It is a post trib or pre wrath rapture. It's not the church, they are in heaven in Rev 5. We know who the harvest is by the 1st fruits. If I showed up with a basket of corn and said, these are the first fruits. Then if I asked, what will be harvested? Surely you would know that the harvest would be corn as the first fruits of the harvest was corn. Even so, we see that the 1st fruits are 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe. Therefore that harvest will be the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. And that is how they people are delivered. Additionally, we know the length of time. It is time, times and half a time. And we see that the nation of Israel will be in a place of protection for time, times and half a time. Israel is protected, the time of Jacobs trouble ended before the gathering by the angels. There are a couple of things to note concerning "thy wrath is come" in Rev 6. 1. The words "is come" is in the aorist tense, which means that the time of action of the verb is not specified. The action of the verb (is come) applies to the principal noun (thy wrath), but the time is not specified. 2. It is not heaven saying that "thy wrath is come", but it is kings and other great men saying this. And this is in response to what just happened and not what is (continuing) to happen. The sun became black ang the moon turned blood red. Ever since the tetrad of blood moons, this has become one of the most recognized signs that the Day of the Lord is near. I didn't say here, but near. The theme of the book of Joel is things/ signs that will take place BEFORE the DOTL comes. They are not signs that it " is come", but rather that it is near. So, just as Rev 6 says that his wrath "is come- aorist tense", Rev 11:18 says that his wrath "is come - aorist participle". This means that the time of action of the verb IS specified and that time is the sounding of the 7th trumpet. The gathering of the elect is not a rapture event but is a gathering of the prophets and saints from the 4 corners of the earth, as Rev 11 states. This is also found in Isa 11: Verse list: Isa 11:11-12 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The children of Israel will not be protected in some solitary location but will be scattered into all winds (the whole world). Numerous passages depict this worldwide scattering of Israel. It is a myth to think that they will be protected in a solitary place. There is no rapture until the Lord shouts before his camp in Jerusalem, a shout that will shake the heavens and the earth. Verse list: Jer 25:29-33 KJV For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Joe 2:11 KJV And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Joe 3:16-17 KJV The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. Amo 1:2 KJV And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither. Be Blessed, The PuP
  6. I mostly agree with that. Only I would say that 12-14 expounds on 6-11. And 15-19 covers the very last days coinciding with the feast of Tabernacles. Be Blessed, The PuP
  7. I take it that you interpret the seals, trumpets and vials concurrently, rather then sequentially. There is therefore no real value in discussing these things because a concurrent view of these things makes the book of revelation a schizophrenic diagram of the events and time markers that are given to them. Be Blessed, The PuP
  8. The antithetical mistake that post-trib makes about those who do not hold to the post-trib view is that the church will be in heaven for all of the time between the (non-post-trib) rapture and Armageddon. And therefore the church can't be in heaven when the 7 vials are poured out (because no man can enter the temple). To which I agree. What I am saying is (and I won't be able to do justice to), is that there will be a post-trib, pre- 2nd advent of the saints to heaven just prior to the 2nd advent...AND there will be a pre-wrath, pre-DOTL rapture of the church to heaven. The time between the two events will be the time of the man of sin who will be sent to manifest the wrath of God upon those who rejected the gospel of grace and "had pleasure in unrighteousness" because they "received not the love of the truth ". This will be the time of God's very strong delusion. The removal of the saints before the cup of the fullness of God's wrath will be the manifest token of God's will at Armageddon against those who blatantly reject the rule of God in their lives. The mistake that you and most make is that the antichrist and/or the man of sin, will be ruling over AND FROM Jerusalem during the 42 month kingdom of the beast. This is principality why you believe in a post-trib rapture. The Lord will be ruling over AND FROM Jerusalem during those 42 months. The remnant who survives the GT and the day of the Lord, will not be permitted until, they as a nation, acknowledge the Lordship of Christ over their lives and their nation. They will be brought to the edge of the wilderness (adjacent to the kingdom of God), and there God will plead with them face to face. Verse list: Eze 20:33-44 KJV As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the WILDERNESS of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols. For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things. I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. Verse list: Zec 14:7-11 KJV But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be IN THAT DAY, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Joe 3:16-18 KJV The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. Be Blessed, The PuP One point that I forgot to make was that when the rapture takes place, "So shall we ever be with the Lord", meaning that wherever the Lord goes, we will go. The church will be with the Lord in Jerusalem during this time between the coming of the kingdom and the pouring out of the 7 vials. Therefore, we will not experience the effects of the vials. They are directed at the kingdom of the beast. Jesus and the saints will rebuild Jerusalem and the temple during this time on earth. The end of which, the saints AND the Lord, will vacate Jerusalem for the sole purpose of manifesting the thoughts of those who would not have the Lord to rule over them, by attacking (for to destroy) Jerusalem. The PuP
  9. And here we see that the time of Jacob's trouble does not come UNTIL Michael stands up FOR the children off Jacob: *[[Dan 12:1]] KJV* And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. This is clearly referencing this time of trouble coming upon the nation of thy people. When Michael stands up, it will be a period of a Time, times, and half a time until the end of these wonders takes place. Verse list: Dan 12:6b-7 KJV ...How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. We see this same time period in Rev 12 [T,T,half T] as to when there appears two WONDERS in heaven: Verse list: Rev 12:1-3 KJV And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:14 KJV And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. I'll put it up again, but the time of Jacob's trouble is the DAY of the LORD: Verse list: Joe 2:1-2 KJV Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:... for the DAY of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A DAY of darkness and of gloominess, a DAY of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; THERE HATH NOT been EVER the LIKE , NEITHER SHALL be any more AFTER IT, even to the years of many generations. Jer 30:7 KJV Alas! for THAT DAY is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. The great tribulation that precedes THAT DAY (as bad as those "days" of tribulation shall be) is not the time of Jacobs trouble. THAT DAY is the when the 7th trumpet sounds and the KOG comes. That day is when the wrath of God comes, to which we are not appointed. Be Blessed, The PuP
  10. There are two principal means that post-trib interprets the book of revelation: sequentially or concurrently. Those who view the seals, trumpets and bowls in a concurring fashion, have the 7th trumpet taking place at the time of Armageddon. But those who view them sequentially, have the 7th trumpet taking place midstream of these events. Such a view has the church being here for the DOTL when the wrath of God "is come", aorist participle. This contradicts Paul's statement that we are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation. To hold to a sequential view of revelation also violates what John says will taker place when that day "is come": *[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy wrath IS COME, and the TIME of the DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the PROPHETS, and to the SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. REITERATING 2TIM 4:1: Jesus shall judge the quick and the dead at, 1. His appearing & 2. His kingdom. I don't see how a sequentialist can reconcile #2 with a post-trib resurrecting of the saints. The coming of Jesus in the clouds with power and glory before the kingdom comes is reiterated in M&M&L. This again violates the sequential order of the 7th trumpet and Rev 19. This is further supported by 2 Thess 2 when Paul says: *[[2Th 2:1]] KJV* Now we beseech you, brethren, 1. by the, coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and 2.by our gathering together unto him, [Aside from what I have presented (as a difference in views) post-trib should also believe that the kingdom comes concurrent with the gathering together] we see: *[[2Th 2:3]] KJV* Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Post-trib views the coming in the clouds and gathering together as one event. That is neither proven nor refuted by 2 Thess 2. It is not a proof text for such a view (post-trib). In and of itself, (out of context) it can and is interpreted to be one or two events (coming & gathering). I have presented other scriptures(gospels and revelation) that days that it is two different events. This has not included other writings of Paul, Peter and James. If you think that 2 Thess 2 conclusively proves a simultaneous coming and gathering, other scriptures (have not and) will not change your mind and there is no further need to discuss this. If you think that there are other scriptures will support your position, feel free to bring then into the discussion. I would only ask that you first explain how the coming of the kingdom (Luke 21:31) and all of the events that precede it, align with the book of revelation. Be Blessed, The PuP
  11. One point that I would add. When Michael stands up, he says that the time of trouble that never was, is yet to come, and not "has been". The great tribulation that happens before that day is not the time of Jacob's trouble. It comes after... after Satan is cast out. This is the DOTL, when the kingdom of God shall come. Be Blessed, The PuP
  12. Just a quick review. When Matthew & Mark speak of no man knowing THAT day, I think you recognize that he is referring to the severity of that day when the KOG and the DOTL arrive in simultaneous fashion. Whereas M & M say "that day", Luke says that the KOG is (only) nigh when these things takes place. This is because Luke does not include "the gathering of the elect". The conclusion of which is that the gathering of the elect is the arrival of the kingdom AND the King. Now add to this that both M & M AND Luke includes Jesus coming in a cloud(s) with power and glory, [in the things that will take place BEFORE the kingdom arrives] tells us that this coming in the clouds is a separate event to the arrival of the kingdom that takes place BEFORE. Though it is not explicitly revealed, that is what Paul says in 2 Tim 4:1..."at his appearing(epiphaneia) AND his kingdom". In referring to the church Paul says that WE shall receive rest from the Lord and he will recompense/ avenge us when he revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance in 2 Thess 1. This language is paralleled in Isa 66 which parallels Rev 12 and Daniel 12, when Michael stands up and kicks Satan out of heaven. Verse list: Isa 66:15-16 KJV For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 2Th 1:6-8 KJV Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Dan 12:1-2 KJV And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:7 KJV And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Rev 12:1-6 KJV And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. *[[Rev 12:13]] KJV* And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the WOMAN which brought forth the man child. Before the woman disappears into the wilderness, Satan (recognizes) is cast out. This great wonder (sign) in heaven is seen just before Satan is cast out and she disappears for 1260 days, afterward. All of this adds up to being the sign that Matthew speaks of as being the "sign of the son of man IN HEAVEN". *[[Rev 12:14]] KJV* And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. But there is more evidence found in Daniel 7 when the kingdom of God is given to the son of man and it says that the saints shall "take the kingdom". There is not one principal figure that rules the fourth kingdom, but two. This is illustrated by the death of the little horn [his body given to the burning flame] and another that shall arise after that shall rule for time, times & dividing of time... in essence, 42 months. Verse list: Dan 7:24-27 KJV And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise AFTER THEM; and he shall be DIVERSE from the FIRST, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a TIME and TIMES and the DIVIDING of TIME. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. In a period of 3.5 years [time, times and half a time] will always contain 43 or 44 months. This is based on the lunar Hebrew calendar of 29.52 days/ month. This is what we see in Rev 13 where is speaks of the beast from the sea and the beast from the earth being allowed to continue and rule (a beast is a kingdom) for 42 months, that starts with the healing of the wounded beast from the sea. I think you would agree that the man of sin is one or the other of these two beasts. The kingdom of the beast arises after Satan is cast out of heaven approximately 1-2 months later. Now notice these words: *[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. *[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. The words "is come" in Rev 12v10 is in the aorist tense that does not convey the time of action, but implies that it is near, in the sense of being imminent. But in Rev 11:15,18, the wrath of God and judgment of the saints and prophets (who are dead), is an aorist participle, meaning that it takes place at that moment in time. I hope this clears things up. Remember the words of Jesus: *[[Mat 24:44]] KJV* Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Many expect him to come at Armageddon, but are you expecting him to come, ON THAT DAY? The day that no man knows (of)! Be Blessed, The PuP
  13. There is not a rapture at the 7th trumpet. We see that the pretribulation rapture has already occured in Revelation 5. This is before any seals are opened. We also see a rapture in Rev 6 (Matt 24 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is the pre wrath rapture of the 12 tribes. The tribulation begins with the opening of the 7 seals. The 1st six seals are the time of Jacobs trouble, which is the tribulation. The Church is already in heaven, pretrib. The wrath of God is times, time and half a time which begins with the opening of the seventh seal. The last is blown on the feast of trumpets. There is also a first trump blown on Pentecost and a great trump. I can't make you believe what you do. Our beliefs should be based on what the scripture says. I would ask you to read the parable of the fig tree in the synoptic gospels in a side by side fashion, using 3 bibles if necessary. The key point is that all these things written in the discourse will take place before the kingdom of God comes. I will leave it up to you to let the scriptures speak for themselves. Be Blessed, The PuP
  14. Jesus appears/ comes in the clouds with power & glory BEFORE (as one of the events detailed in the discourse) the kingdom comes at the 7th trumpet. This is when the rapture takes place. Neither of which would be pretrib. The error in understanding the end times is when we misconstrue the great tribulation as being the time of Jacob's trouble OR as being the wrath of God. I would recommend taking a closer lookat the book of Joel. The theme of that book is things that take place BEFORE the DOTL comes. You find a great parallel between Joel and the 7 trumpets. What didn't seem to add up was that if the DOTL (7th trumpet) is the worst day, how so? There is very little found in the book of revelation that tells us what happens on that day. Then I recalled the 7 thunders found in chapter 10. John said that those things were to be sealed up until the "days" of the 7th trumpet. Being that the 7th trumpet is when the day of his wrath comes, the severity of his wrath must be found in those 7 thunders. Verse list: Amo 5:18-20 KJV Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? Be Blessed, The PuP
  15. You are totally missing my point. Joel said that the day of the Lord will be the worst of all days, before and after: *[[Joe 2:2]] KJV* A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. The truth of the matter is that I said that the day that no man knows refers to the severity of that day of his wrath, and is not referring to the timing element of His coming. I said nothing of him NOT coming on that day. That is irrelevant to what "no man knows the day " means. The truth of the matter also, is that he will come on that day, but it is only the beginning of the "time, times, and the dividing of time" [found in Daniel 7:25] that the saints will be given into the hand of the 4th beast from the earth. This gathering of the elect is told and portrayed in Rev 14. There Jesus is first seen on mount Zion with the 144,000, then he is seen in the cloud gathering the grapes with his sickle. Be Blessed, The PuP
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