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Da Puppers

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  1. Da Puppers

    One REVELATION of Jesus or Two?

    Michael 37, Diaste, I think that you are deviating from my original point about the revelation of Jesus by focusing only on 2 Thess 2. Let me try to get you on track. The "revelation of Jesus" is not spoken of in direct fashion as is the revelation, the apocalypse, of the man of sin, and later the revelation of the wicked one. Look at the opening 2 verses. He adjures or beseeches them by the "coming of our Lord" and by "our gathering together". This is alluding to our blessed hope, the joy of his return for us. And then he says "don't be troubled (in any fashion)". Do you see what he is saying? They are equating troubled times, [whether present or future] WITH the "day of Christ". They are not equating the day of Christ with the blessed hope, but with trouble. He is telling them, don't be troubled at any tribulation that you experience, present or future. Times will be far worse than you can imagine. Their focus was on the "day of Christ" and how bad it will be. He proceeds to tell them that the "day of Christ", those perilous times, will entail the revealing of the man of sin, aka the wicked one. He odds explaining that the day of Christ IS his judgment upon all of the unbelievers of the gospel. He is not jumping back and forth in the chronology, i.e., The revealing of the man of sin[v.6], followed by the revelation of Jesus[v.7], and then going backwards [in time] to the revealing of the wicked one[v.8]. He is expounding on simply one revelation, resulting in "the day of Christ", very terrible times. When you consider that v.7 is about Jesus and his 2nd advent, calling it "[his] revelation in his time", you are having to pull in your external view [from another scripture?] to quantify that view. This is because he does not refer to "his coming, our gathering" as the "Revelation of Jesus". So now, I ask you, can you provide an external source to the 2nd advent being referred to as "the revelation of Jesus"? Comprende? Blessings The PuP
  2. Da Puppers

    One REVELATION of Jesus or Two?

    These 2 passages: *[[Luk 17:29]] KJV* But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.*[[Luk 17:30]] KJV* Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. *[[2Th 1:7]] KJV* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, Equate the apocalupsis/ revelation of Jesus with the time of our rest and the time that vengeance begins to be poured out. In other words, these must refer to our rapture, prior to those days. They are both called the revelation of Jesus. If [and I emphasize IF] the 2nd advent is also called the revelation, then there are (at least) two revelations of Jesus. If that is true there must be a textual reason to differentiate the different "revelations". If there is only one, then the post-trib view seems to have a leg up on other views. If there is only one, and you are not post-trib, in the truest sense of the view, how do you differentiate the rapture from the advent? The answer lies in the Greek word parousia, translated as coming. But there is another word translated as coming, erchomai. The division between rapture views centers on misunderstanding his "revelation" and his "coming". A proper evaluation of these terms together, will produce this ideology: there are 2 comings, but only one revelation. Blessings The PuP
  3. Da Puppers

    One REVELATION of Jesus or Two?

    Any close inspection of this list of verse should, [I emphasize should] lead one to conclude that the rapture and revelation are one and the same event. Will any one dare to take the revelation challenge and show that any of those verses should not be viewed as our rapture? If this assumption is right (based on the supplied verses) let me give you one verse that might be a troubled spot. *[[2Th 2:6]] KJV* And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. Who is the one that is to be revealed "in his time"? Jesus or the man of sin? If it is Jesus, how does that fit in with the timing of the rapture? Blessings The PuP
  4. Da Puppers

    One REVELATION of Jesus or Two?

    Is there one future prophesied revelation of Jesus Christ, or is there Two? There are 2 principal words used to refer to the revealing or the revelation of Jesus Christ, G601, apocalupto, and G602, apocalupsis. I have given a starting list to work with. Whether you believe there is only one or two, be prepared to define the "what is it" and "when is it". Verse list:Rev 1:1/KJV, Luk 17:29-30/KJV, 2Th 2:6/KJV, Rom 2:5/KJV, Rom 8:19/KJV, 1Co 1:7/KJV, 2Th 1:7/KJV, 1Pe 1:7/KJV, 1Pe 1:13/KJV Verse list: Rev 1:1 KJV The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Luk 17:29-30 KJV But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 2Th 2:6 KJV And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. Rom 2:5 KJV. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Rom 8:19 KJV. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation/revelation of the sons of God. 1Co 1:7 KJV. So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming/revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:7 KJV. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 1Pe 1:7 KJV. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing/revelation of Jesus Christ: 1Pe 1:13 KJV. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; Blessings The PuP
  5. Da Puppers

    When Wrath Begins

    God has ordained am abiding principal upon mankind, in order to please God. FAITH. Without faith it is impossible to please him. That principle is iterated in the words of Jesus: *[[Mat 24:42]] KJV* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. *[[Mat 24:43]] KJV* But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. These words speak to all points in time in reference to the rapture AND the 2nd advent. The coming of Christ will be as an unknown thief to everyone. To the faithful saints, the specific tune of his coming will be known only to the FATHER. But that does not preclude our being ready and watching. The culmination of our watching will be the cosmic sign, that you deftly point out at every occasion. But the lesson that the Lord has taught me concerning verse 43, was not simply to watch, but WHY we should watch. The Goodman of the house represents all of mankind. Here is the jixt of the matter. If any one of the unsaved, were to have knowledge of WHEN Jesus was coming, [like a burglar coming], they would stand in guard of that very hour. Many of the unsaved world would be standing in complete expectation of his return. In essence, they would be "serving" God out of judgmental fear, rather than from a loving relationship, spawned from a personal knowledge of God's forgiveness. In other words, serving him out of fear, rather than love. This is further demonstrated by the NON-elect angels in heaven, who serve God in his presence out of fear. *[[1Ti 5:21]] KJV* I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. We don't know much of the specifics, but this is the basis for the coming war in heaven, when Satan AND HIS ANGELS, are cast out. Many, predominantly in the world of pretrib, have grasped the concept of serving God out of love, but do not recognize those who are serving him out of fear, because they don't know when he is coming. I think what it boils down to, is their required belief in imminency. Not knowing, does not, in itself, constitute his return being imminent. It is a heart that does not [I will not say cannot] comprehend the essence of watching. They ignore the need to watch, because they are lacking in their ability to serve him with an attitude on KNOWING his return is NOT imminent. Their service is not based on a relationship of loving forgiveness, but of a fear of his unknown judgment, concerning the time of the rapture. The timing of the rapture concerns the expectation of his return [by those who are truly ready, relationshipwise]. The times that follow the rapture will elicit the desires of the unregenerate hearts, to throw off any expectations of his return at Armageddon. His return at the rapture and the advent will both be predicated upon an attitude of not watching. His timing for the rapture, after a little season of great tribulation, will impeccably demonstrate the heart that truly loves him. Blessings The PuP
  6. Da Puppers

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    Besides an errant understanding to the timing of the mark of the beast who has been allotted (the last) 42 months of the 70th week [the mark can't be implemented before he is revealed], as much as I despise and abhor these things that you mention, that is no worse than what the church has already went through. Blessings The PuP
  7. This may or may not be the complete answer to the question, but it is definitely apart of the equation: *[[Luk 15:10]] KJV* Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Blessings The PuP
  8. Da Puppers

    Revelation and the Study of Woe

    When you say this: "Sorry, I really don't know what you were trying to show us here. Whatever it was, I disagree. " That tells me that you have a doctrine built on fiction and not scripture. And then say that I change the order of revelation. How could you possibly believe that when you don't understand what I said? I have no further comments. The PuP
  9. Da Puppers

    Revelation and the Study of Woe

    Let me give you some connecting scriptures to show that opening of the 6th seal is when God will shake the heavens & the earth for one final time. *[[Isa 2:10]] KJV* Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the *[*glory of his majesty*]*. *11* The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted IN THAT DAY.*12* For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:... *[[Isa 2:17]] KJV* And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted IN THAT DAY .*18* And the idols he shall utterly abolish.*[[Isa 2:19]] KJV* And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the *[*glory of his majesty*]*, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. *[[Rev 6:14]] KJV* And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.*15* And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; *[[Isa 34:2]] KJV* For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.*3* Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.*4* And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree... *[[Isa 34:8]] KJV* For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. *[[Luk 17:29]] KJV* But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. *30* Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. *[[Luk 21:20]] KJV* And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.*21* Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.*22* For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. *[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.*[[Jer 25:30]] KJV* Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.*31* A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.*32* Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.*33* And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. *[[Amo 1:2]] KJV* And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither. *[[Joe 2:10]] KJV* The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:*11* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? *[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.*27* And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.*28* Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: Hopefully, all these verses will help you connect the shaking of the heavens & earth with the voice of God AND with judgment upon Jerusalem AND with Joel 2:10,11, when the moon shall be turned into blood and the sun into darkness; all of this with the opening of the 6th seal, AND with the days of vengeance and the revelation/ apocalypse of Jesus. There is only one apocalypse of Jesus (his revealing) that brings "rest to the saints" and vengeance upon those "that know not God". *[[2Th 1:4]] KJV* So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:*5* Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:*6* Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;*7* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,*8* In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:*9* Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; *10* When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. The rapture brings: 1. His revelation from heaven, 2. Our rest, from our enemies, 3. Vengeance upon the world. Of course, the world will then consist primarily of the wicked, with the exception of the elect of Israel. Blessings, The PuP
  10. Da Puppers

    When Wrath Begins

    Before the "train has been spotted" [figuratively speaking], we have the opening of the 5th seal. There we have martyrs, "wearing white robes". We, [if not all here] agree that the 5th seal is a pre - rapture event. The point that I want to emphasize is the white robes, do not signify having an immortal body. In describing that New Jerusalem, John declares that white linen/ robes *[[Rev 19:8]] KJV* And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. I agree with you, Joe, that the 6th seal is but the sighting of the incoming train. I think that your question is: when exactly does his wrath begin? Does it begin with the 1st trumpet, or after the 7th? I think that the answer is both. Jesus said that it would rain fire & brimstone on the same day as his revealing... The rapture! THAT wrath (before the 7th trumpet) is specifically upon the enemies of the church. The forthcoming wrath pronounced with the 7th trumpet, I believe is upon the enemies of Israel. The manifest token of that wrath??? The mark of the beast. The primary impetus for implementing the mark? The building of the "messianic" temple. It will not be the true "messianic" temple, but instead it will be another fake-out to build it. It will involve the same mindset as to build the (destroyed) tribulation temple, but will have a more sinister motive. Blessings The PuP
  11. Da Puppers

    Revelation and the Study of Woe

    We have several points of disagreement. I don't like getting strung out trying to discuss several points at a time. Let's narrow this down to a smaller point of discussion. Lets talk about the sun and moon darkening. You have only identified, but 2 of three such events. Here is the "third" [lol] *[[Rev 8:12]] KJV* And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. Let's talk about the one in Joel 2:10 [you left off verse 11, that I presented, claiming a different timing]. They are: *[[Joe 2:10]] KJV* The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: *[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Verse 11, hence verse 10, I showed the connection with Joel 3, Amos 1, Jeremiah 25, Hebrews 12 AND Rev 6's sixth seal. I would like you to explain why you believe these are not the same event. The shaking of the heavens and earth are mentioned several places in the O.T. Joel 2:10,11 connects these two events together, [darkness and God's voice]. Yet you have placed it at the time of Armageddon. You have made the connection of an earthquake with a resurrection. So why are you missing the one in Rev 8:4,5? 2 Thess 1:7-10 makes the connection of our glorification with Christ, AND our vengeance upon our persecutors. Surely that involves the prayers of tree saints, found in Rev 8:4. If you wish to discuss only the first issue, about darkness, that is okay. Blessings The PuP
  12. Da Puppers

    The Next Event

    Sorry, I overlooked your reply back to me. As far as being a port city, sitting upon many waters is part of the vision, not the interpretation. The waters REPRESENT many people, nations and tongues. John is given the interpretation of what the symbols within the vision represent. Even tho Jerusalem does sit [also] on 7 hills/ mountains, they too are symbols. "The 7 heads [OF THE BEAST, not the woman] ARE 7 kings" and they are "7 mountains on which the woman sits". It is the woman which has reigned over these 7 kings, and not voice versa. Jeremiah 25:27-30 is a good place to start to see that the origins of the great tribulation centers around any attack on Jerusalem. *[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. There are many other passages found in Jeremiah Ezekiel, Amos, Joel, that can be presented to support my point. Ezekiel 16 is a good chapter that gives a prophetic lifespan of Jerusalem into the future restoration of such. Blessings The PuP
  13. Da Puppers

    Revelation and the Study of Woe

    Your last paragraph reminds me of a saying that says: I wouldn't believe it if it hit me in the face. You admit that prewrath is correct, but refuse to agree with it?... Your use of the word suspect in paragraph 2: "I suspect this sign is speaking of eclipses of the sun and moon" tells me that you have no scripture to believe that the cosmic signs in the sun & moon have already past. It's right there in the scripture: *[[Joe 2:10]] KJV* The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: *[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? The last part of verse 11 is an near word for word expression of the opening of the 6th seal: *[[Rev 6:17]] KJV* For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The shaking of the heavens and earth are because of the upcoming one time event in which the Lord's voice shall shake the heaven and the earth. *[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. *[[Amo 1:2]] KJV* And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither. *[[Jer 25:30]] KJV* Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. These and other scriptures will be in fulfilment of this: *[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet ONCE MORE I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. Your "suspected" belief is based on a pretrib theology and not scripture. The rapture of the church was not a mystery, but he is conveying a mistaken notion of what Jesus said. *[[1Th 4:15]] KJV* For this we say unto you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. Jesus said that "he that shall endure to the end shall be saved". Jesus talked of the parousia several times in the Olivet Discourse. You might want to verify that there are multiple words used for the coming of our Lord. Parousia refers to the brightness to which every eye shall see when he comes with his holy angels in THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER, IN THE CLOUDS. Do you know its brightness? It will kill anyone with unshielded eyes. The great crowd in heaven wearing robes of white?By your own admission of the 5th seal martyrs, you acknowledge that white robes do not signify the incident of the rapture. The great multitude in Rev 7 are the innumerable millions wearing white robes "coming out of great tribulation ", having been given the righteousness of God, the same as is told of the new Jerusalem clothed in fine linen. It is good to hear you acknowledge the relevance of an earthquake. Do you believe in the resurrection that took place here (and other places)? *[[Rev 8:5]] KJV* And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Your arguments (I've addressed only some) are so full of holes, that it looks like the Martian moon. Blessings The PuP
  14. Da Puppers

    The context of 1 Thess 5:1

    It seems to me that if you are going to say that: *[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Is not about the rapture, but is about a separate event of gathering together [episunago], then 2 Thess 2 must also be about the timing of the gathering together [not the rapture]. *[[2Th 2:1]] KJV* Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING TOGETHER unto him, Therefore, 2 Thess 2 cannot be used to say that it has anything to do with the timing of the rapture, relative to the falling away or the revelation of the man of sin. Paul is referring to the timing of "that [one] day", not those days, meaning "the coming" & "our gathering". If the word "our" includes the church, then the timing of "our" gathering, must coincide with "our" rapture. Blessings The PuP
  15. Da Puppers

    Revelation and the Study of Woe

    Iamlamad, The main difference between what you believer and what prewrath believes, is that you are a prewrath adherent, you just don't know it. We both agree that the 6th seal is the acknowledgement by the world, that the day of his wrath is come. Steve points it out very well by pointing to the scripture that says that the sun and moon will be unnaturally darkened BEFORE the great and notable day of the Lord comes. It does not say how long the "before" is in Joel, but it is the sign, that will truly signify that the rapture odds imminent: "lift up your heads, redemption is nigh" are the words of Jesus. We both seem to agree about that. You believe that there are 7 years to follow. We believe it to be about half of that length of time. But we both believe in the prewrath rapture of the church. Paul's teaching about the rapture in 1 Thess 4, is NOT ABOUT the "suddenness" of the rapture. You are missing his point. You cannot overlook him saying, "we shall not ALL sleep, but we shall ALL be changed". Paul is trying to get the point across that not everyone shall be asleep in the grave at the time of his parousia. Some, though few in number, will survive the horrific events of the great tribulation, aka, not known as the wrath of God, and will be alive to be changed in a swift moment of time [the twinkling of an eye] to meet Christ and all of the resurrected saints, IN THE AIR! It is the Day of the Lord, that comes with unexpectedness, not the rapture. We are not in darkness that that day should come upon us unawares. Other than minor differing views on the seals and trumpets and the revelation of the beast, welcome to the prewrath fellowship.
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