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Da Puppers

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  1. Thank you everyone. We are devout Christians. I worry about my wife's ability to move on and understand why. I feel like it may be some time before we understand. Be Blessed The PuP
  2. Rabbi Fish explained that the term שער (gate) refers to government or leadership, as seen in a verse in Deuteronomy. In a recent blog, Rabbi Fish cited a commentary that explains the words שער (gate) as an acronym for שִׁלְטוֹן עֵרֶב רב (rule by the mixed multitude). Rabbi Fish explained the ‘gate’ referred to the government of Israel. Rabbi Fish also predicted that the second elections will be accompanied by war, a prediction that was also made by Netanyahu on Friday. Is Netanyahu the Restrainer??? If so we are looking at the removal of this restrainer?? Though I don't consider that Netanyahu to be what Paul is referring to as the restraint on 2 Thess 1&2, he could be a cog in the wheel of change. I do believe that the timing is profoundly significant. One of the campaign promises that could be a mountain mover is the annexation of the West bank. This could be a significant part (of his re-election?) that brings about a call to rebuild the temple and for the gathering of all Israel to Jerusalem...FOR JUDGMENT! With the upcoming Noahic covenant renewal, these could be the dominoes that set things in motion. As far as this being the restraint, I would refer you to a podcast by Michael Heiser, episode 224. https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcast/naked-bible-224-the-falling-away-and-the-restrainer/ There he explains why the retainer is not just a who but also a what. Two word forms are used for restrained. He connects the first two chapters of 2 Thess with Isa 66. In a nutshell, he says that God himself, is the restrainER, And the falling away is what is being restrainED. It is the removal of the wicked (tares?) [From Israel AND from the church] that is what hinders the "(beginning of the) gathering together". M.Heiser may not say it as clear as I will, but I believe that the word "together" is the key to understanding what Paul is saying in 2 Thess 2. Two scriptures say it well: Verse list: Mar 13:27 KJV And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Eph 1:10 KJV That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: The "gathering together" is also there in 2 Thess 2: 2Th 2:1 KJV Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, I believe this to be referring to the setting up of the kingdom of God, as per the 7th trumpet, shortly after the rapture of the church, when the church and Israel are gathered together into the kingdom. This raises many questions that I won't go into here, because current belief systems hinder that belief. Be Blessed The PuP
  3. What the temple institute says and believes, no matter how much they believe it, means nothing when it contradicts scripture. As per Eze 43, the time for loathing, or being ashamed of their sins and iniquities has not passed. Maybe you believe that God has cast away and/ or ceased to deal with Israel. But he has not. Eze 36:31 KJV Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. You can believe (and the temple institute can believe) that sacrifices can be offered without a temple. This was surely true in the days of Ezra when the children of Israel began offering sacrifices before the temple was built. Ezr 3:2-3 KJV Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God. And they set the altar upon his bases; for fear was upon them because of the people of those countries: and they offered burnt offerings thereon unto the LORD, even burnt offerings morning and evening. Most certainly, the sacrifices will begin without a temple to offer them in. Jerusalem is the city where God has placed his name there. The book of Deuteronomy is the law of God pertaining to the sacrificial system when Israel is dwelling in her land. There you find the phrase, "... where I (God) has placed his name there...", a multitude of times. Sacrifices, in lieu of a standing temple, and the laws governing such, are defined in Leviticus and Numbers, in perpetuous fashion (Leviticus) and when dwelling in the wilderness (Numbers). But Deuteronomy is all about when they are dwelling in the land. Deu 16:16 KJV Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty: When you understand that, you can begin to understand why the seals trumpets and vials will all happen while Israel is dwelling in her land, with a functioning temple. With regards to Ezekiel 5,6 & 7, I would ask you to look at them in a side by side by side fashion to compare them together. Scholars, for too long now, have failed to notice the difference in those accounts. Because they have failed to do so, and interpreting them to be referring to the same event, have unwittingly given us an unbiased interpretation to Eze 7. There we are shown a prophecy about the destruction of the temple. But it is not about Nebuchadnezzar. Eze 5 & 7 are about the time of the day of the Lord's wrath and the time like no other. Eze 5:9 KJV And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations. Eze 7:8-9 KJV Now will I shortly pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for ALL thine abominations. And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the LORD that smiteth. The difference between chapter 6 and chapters 5 & 7, is found in the specifically defined locations where those judgments take place. Within and without the city, near thee and far off, are clearly defined for the sword, famine and pestilence to be different in those accounts. I hope you can see that they are different. Before temple construction begins, believing that a temple won't be built is just a matter of unbelief. But if you continue to believe this after construction begins, you will then find yourself in the same category as the false teachers. Be Blessed The PuP
  4. The means/ purpose for which God will gather ALL ISRAEL there, will be to judge them and purge then from their sins & iniquities. Eze 22:17-22 KJV And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you. A parallel passage is found in Ezekiel chapters 5 and 7. These two chapters complement each other and are an antithetical contrast to Ezekiel 6 when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem. Scholars have unknowingly and without a prophetic interpretational bias, have shown us the prophesied destruction of yr future temple. Eze 7:19-22 KJV They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity. As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations and of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them. And I will give it into the hands of the strangers for a prey, and to the wicked of the earth for a spoil; and they shall pollute it. My face will I turn also from them, and they shall pollute my secret place: for the robbers shall enter into it, and defile it. Before this month is over, you will see confirmatory evidence that the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem. Be Blessed The PuP
  5. I read this article too, while in the hospital tending to my step- son's recent terminal injuries. People are so enamored with a treaty by some antichrist figure, that I am convinced that very few can or will be able to acknowledge this as the covenant that is confirmed with many. Sept 25, also Elul 25, 5779, is the days that Jews acknowledge as the anniversary of the creation of the world with Tishri 1, (the 6th day after) God created man. The 1290th day afterward will be the Passover, 5783. I don't understand the jixt of Noahide laws. But I do believe and acknowledge that this is indeed the covenant that is to be confirmed. God will use this to gather all who would call themselves Israel, to Jerusalem for judgment. Eze 22:17-22 KJV And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you. Be Blessed The PuP
  6. I would like to make a request for my family. My wife's 14 year old son, Drake, suffered a traumatic head injury in an ATV accident, one week ago today. His injury was more than doctors could overcome. We covet your prayers to understand why and what do we do now. Drake's parents have agreed to donate (some of) his organs to help others. Pray that we can understand why and that multiple lives can be saved from this. In Christ's name The family of Drake Guffey.
  7. I guess, that when I started this thread, my point was not to definitively prove that pretrib is wrong. I had at least three questions that I would like those of a pretrib persuasion to answer. 1. If temple sacrifices were to resume, would this be indicative of the arrival of the 70th week? 2. If we were to see a completely rebuilt temple, would this be indicative of the arrival of the 70th week? 3. If Jerusalem were to be surrounded and/ or attacked by her enemies, would this be, under pre-trib theology, a sign of impending great tribulation and/or the arrival of the 70th week? Be Blessed The PuP
  8. I don't discount the thought that we have been living in the times of the Gentiles for more than 2000 years, but I don't really find any support for it scripturally. The closest thing that I can find would be Deut 23:2,3 where there is an exclusion of 10 generations. This would amount to 10 "generations" of 390 years equaling 3900 years. This is the approximate that Isaac was born. Aside from that Luke 21 seems to equate the times of the Gentiles with the specific period of time that Jerusalem IS TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles & the children of Israel are led away into captivity for the final 42 months of the endtimes (according to Rev 11): Luk 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. This would seem to exclude the prior times that Jerusalem is not in utter desolation. This final utter desolation will manifest the world's love or hatred for her condition. That may not be strong support for "the times..." . But we see this phrase referring to the gathering "from heaven AND earth", not only in Ephesians 1, but also in Mark 13: Eph 1:10 KJV That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Mar 13:27 KJV And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Because physical Israel and the church are brought into intimate fellowship with the Father, AT DIFFERENT TIMES, this could very well refer to a period of time (after the rapture) that Israel is brought into this same fellowship with God. What I am saying is that the Gentiles (primarily) who live for Christ during the times of the mark of the beast will have to give their lives in martyrdom. This will emulate the epitome of faith (no fear of death) to the Jews and will be an instrument of jealousy that provokes the Jews to salvation by faith. Seeing Christ come in power and glory(and them left out) will initiate a sorrowful heart of godliness in them that will put them on the this road to salvation. The combination of seeing Christ coming in glory and Gentiles dying for their faith will be the straws that breaks the camels back of an unbelieving heart. Until they see these things, Jews will continue to be very reluctant to have faith in AND WORSHIP any man who is God. Thou shalt have no other God's before me is intrinsically ingrained in Jewish hearts. Be Blessed The PuP
  9. I agree that we should not disequate the fullness of the Gentiles with the period that precedes the blindness being removed from Israel. We currently live in the times of the Gentiles. The fullness of (the times of) the Gentiles will run concurrently with the removal of Israel's blindness. Rom 11:19-22 KJV Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Be Blessed The PuP
  10. Very few seem to be able to grasp that Jerusalem [shall be] is portrayed as mystery Babylon. I would also recommend a reading of Jeremiah 25. A point of note found there is that the last king to drink of the cup of the wrath of God is the king of Sheshak/Babylon. He will lead all those kings (and the kings of the whole world) to attack and destroy Jerusalem . Jerusalem IS mystery Babylon, but she is NOT beast (nor the beast from the bottomless pit...same as the beast). The beast is a kingdom (with a king, of course) that shall ascend out of the ashpits of history, reviving a forgotten kingdom. The 10 kings have power only for a (very short period of time) hour. This kingdom will NOT appear on the modern stage until the hour of temptation comes upon the whole world. But the thing that I just realized is this question: At what point in time is John seeing this vision of mystery Babylon? The answer lies in the fact that John sees this woman, the harlot, when she is decked with beauty, Rev 17:4 KJV And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: At the time of the writing of Revelation, Jerusalem was not a beautifully decked out city, but was a ruinous heap. So it's not a picture of late first century Jerusalem. Its a picture of a city full of glory. We also see that she is riding a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. But there are no crowns to be seen, especially on the horns. But John tells us that this is before they receive power one hour with the beast. What this tells me is that this is a very brief period of time, just before they attack Jerusalem, aka, mystery Babylon. So this is a picture of Jerusalem in the future, and not just John's future, but it is even future to our current day. The decked out woman, is a picture of the city, clothed in the "glory" of the rebuilt temple. The temple will be rebuilt (probably very soon) and it will be destroyed at that time. What time is that? A short amount of time just before her 42 months of desolation begins. We also know that it is in the days of the 6th king, before whom 5 have fallen, and the 7th and 8th are yet to come. This has caused me to rethink things concerning the 7 kings of Rev 17. He says that the 7th, WHEN he comes, [he has not arrived at this point in time just before Jerusalem is judged (by God) and destroyed] will continue for a short space. Rev 17:10 KJV And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. This probably (certainly?) means that (today) the 6th king also has not arisen. He also arises in the last days because he will give way to the 7th. I think that this is where the biggest error comes from in trying to interpret Rev 17. It is written from the perspective of the DAYS OF THE 6th king, which I have shown Is yet future. Is there also a 5th king that arises in the consummation of the last days? What about a 4th?3rd?2nd? And 1st? My personal feeling is that the last days will bring the 5th-8th kings, and the bible has already given us the answer, in a general form (not by name, but by nation). Be Blessed The PuP
  11. I like what you say here. But I would say that it is more than just the (short) period of time BEFORE he comes, unless you are pointing to the specific time of the advent return of Jesus at the time of Armageddon. In which case, I would agree with you in that it refers to the final glorification of the body of Christ...saved Gentiles at the time of the rapture and afterward those elect of Israel and the (remaining) fullness of the Gentiles comes in during the final period of 42 months when the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled. In summary, I guess what I am saying is that the "times of the Gentiles, Luke 21:24" is not simply referring to their trampling down of Jerusalem, but rather this trampling of Jerusalem IS the state of affairs (of the world during the mark of the beast) that results in the final harvest of the Gentiles... after the rapture! Be Blessed The PuP
  12. Because your reproof is an insufficient answer. 1. Within the same book and writer, different words don't convey the same meaning. 2. Daniel is writing of a vision that he saw and not the symbolic conveyance of truth. Your response does not reflect on how to interpret a vision. Use another vision for comparison if it helps. Give me your analytical methodology to interpreting a vision. Just make it a valid comparison and/or explanation. P.s. I think(?) that you agree that "sea" is being used the same way in Daniel 7 & Rev 13. What sea means in other passages is irrelevant. Dan 7 & Rev 13 are inextricably related. Show me that you are being consistent in your interpretation of the two. Be Blessed The PuP
  13. The focus of our current discussion is focusing on how you interpret the sea. Unless you are willing to address the above quote, I feel like it would be better to not go any further with this. Be Blessed The PuP
  14. Let me just give you one more thing before I move on. [If you have a transponder room, like the USS Enterprise, that allows you to zip to another world whenever you want, you won't get what I am about to say]. Rev 14 is a pivotal chapter when it comes to understanding this book. The key point is "where does it belong within tht chronology of the book and all endtime events? ". Three points, rather four, are made that gives us the correct placement. 1.Rev 14:6 KJV And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, This is the gospel of the everlasting kingdom of God that has now come with the sounding of the 7th trumpet. 2. Rev 14:8 KJV And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. The kingdom of Babylon has (just) fallen. This is the kingdom that will ascend from the bottomless pit in the last days. This kingdom, with the backing of the 10 kingdoms with their kings, will make war on the LAMB and he will overcome them. He will break their kingdom into pieces and scatter into the wind. This is the beast from the sea. The 10 kings will have power with the beast for but one hour. This kingdom will only arise moments before she attacks and destroys the harlot. When this kingdom re-emerges from tht dust bin of nations, it will be too late to flee for cover. Sudden destruction upon all thee world will come in an hour. 3. Rev 14:9 KJV And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: This announcementis made before the mark of the beast is implemented, by the false prophet. This is the last 42 months of Revelation endtimes, during the revived kingdom of the beast, Babylon. 4. Rev 14:1 KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Here we see the 144,000 on My. Zion, WITH the LAMB. This is further evidence that Jesus has set up the kingdom of God on earth. This is further confirmed in Olivet Discourse when they all conclude with: 1. The arrival of the king 2. The arrival of the kingdom, 3. The gathering of the elect begins. This gathering of the elect is the 5th confirmation of the times. 5. Rev 14:14 KJV And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Rev 14:15 KJV And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. This chapter continues on telling us that it is the time to gather the fruit and the vine that bears no fruit. It is the gathering of the sheep and the goats, WHEN the son of man sits on the throne of his glory. If one is an astute reader of this book, he will notice that it shows two times of signs being revealed from heaven. Rev 12, and Rev 15. The sign of the woman and dragon are the signs of the impending wrath of the LAMB when satan is cast out of heaven. Rev 12:1-4 KJV And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 6:12-17 KJV And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Psa 110:5 KJV The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. Rev 15:1 KJV And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. The trumpets are the wrath of the LAMB that takes place in the middle portion of the endtimes. The vials are the wrath of God that takes place at the end of those days. I could go on, but this is already too long. I just want everyone to know that the kingdom of the beast is Babylon, and not Rome or some other king or kingdom. Let me finish by restating that the kingdom of Babylon will only arise at the last hour, when it will be too late to recognize and respond. Be Blessed The PuP
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