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Da Puppers

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  1. Da Puppers

    Mark of the beast

    The purpose of the revelation of the man of sin is to deceive those who rejected the truth. It's not just simply a deception, it's a deception orchestrated by God himself: Verse list: 2Th 2:9-12 KJV Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. This deception is directed at those who "received not the love of the truth ". But it also says that they had pleasure in unrighteousness. In other words, they knew what was wrong, via the conviction of that holy ghost, and had pleasure in doing wrong. The word of God is spirit, according to Jesus and therefore they were blaspheming the Holy Ghost. The twofold work of the beast and false prophet is to deceive with signs and wonders: *[[Rev 19:20]] KJV* And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Those who take the mark are those who have already rejected (received not) the gospel and have spurned the wooing of the Holy Ghost. Blessings The PuP
  2. Da Puppers

    Who is the Whore of babylon

    The 3rd reason why MYSTERY Babylon will be the place of God's throne is because: 3. Waters will flow in 2 directions out of Jerusalem when she is destroyed: [Zec 14:8]]And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; HALF of them toward the former sea, and HALF of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. But there is more. Half, meaning that 2 streams will issue forth. One of them will go out into the desert to the east: [Eze 47:8] Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. Since there is no desert between Jerusalem and the dead sea, we know that this must be the desert region of Arabia and that the sea, must be that of the Persian Gulf that connects to the Indian Ocean. This is the same gulf into which the Tigris Euphrates river basin empties into, which flows thru the heart of the Babylonian kingdom. These waters (this half) will make its way to the place where God will place his throne, to Susa, in the province of Elam. Further evidence that a temple for worship will be found here is this: [Zec 5:11] And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base. What is the prophecy of Zech 5 about? It is about the setting up of an evil house of worship. Two women are said to carry the ephah of lead to the land of Shinar. Shinar is the ancient historical name for Chaldea and/or Babylonian culture. So why did they come here? I believe that Daniel 8 & 11 tells us why. [Dan 8:11] Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. [Dan 11:31] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Which again brings us back to this: [Dan 8:12] And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. At the time when the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, we see these 2 phrases: 1.The place of his sanctuary shall be cast down, AND, 2.They shall pollute the sanctuary of strength. Both of these scriptures give rise to the need for a new sanctuary, because the old one will be destroyed. Where is this place that will be destroyed? Think back to the 2 women carrying the ephah. Symbolically a woman represents a city, and two women would represent 2 cities. If there are 2 cities, but only one sanctuary that is destroyed, what does that mean? I think that it means one thing. Mecca is the place of the sanctuary of strength and Medina is her sister city. Mecca & Medina are the 2 most revered "holy" cities of Islam. The Ka'aba stone is believed to be a meteorite made of some sort of heavy metal. It is the lead ephah. It will be transported to the land of Shinar to construct a new shrine. When the fountain of living waters flow unto the desert, it will be as the garden of Eden. Things will flourish mightily. These waters are "for the healing of the nations". A thriving metropolis will quickly develop. Perhaps this is why the great city will be split in 3 parts by the great earthquake of Rev 16:19. MYSTERY Babylon will be made ready for is inhabitants to flee... God's people. Is there another reason to believe that MYSTERY Babylon is Jerusalem , daughter of Zion? Yes there is. Micah 4 says this: [Mic 4:10] Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. Zion is MYSTERY Babylon. Jerusalem is the mother of harlots and abominations. Blessings The PuP
  3. Da Puppers

    Who is the Whore of babylon

    Mystery Babylon is truly a mystery that few will ever be able to grasp the truth that is meant to be conveyed. On the one hand, MYSTERY Babylon of Rev 17 is the same as Babylon the Great of Rev 18. *[[Rev 17:4]] KJV* And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: *[[Rev 18:16]] KJV* And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! But on the other hand, there is a reason why one is called MYSTERY Babylon and the other is simply called Babylon the Great. Tho they are located in the same place, MYSTERY Babylon refers to the sanctuary where the throne of the Lord shall be during the 42 months time in which Jerusalem shall be trodden down, *[[Rev 11:2]] KJV* But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. God will give, has ordained, that his throne will be in Elam in the last days, *[[Jer 49:38]] KJV* And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD. *39* But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD. It will take place at the same time as this prophecy: *[[Dan 8:2]] KJV* And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. This concerns the vision of the Ram with 2 horns, Media - Persia, who is the Lamb with 2 horns found in Rev 13. This beast rises again when one of the heads of the beast from the sea, THE LITTLE HORN, dies, and lives again, *[[Rev 13:3]] KJV* And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. This head, the little horn, is one of the 7 heads/ horns that are the 7 rulers of the 10 kingdoms, before whom 3 were uprooted, see Daniel 7. What we should garner from Dan 7;8, is that the little horn arises as one of the leaders of the kingdom of the north, and is in fact, the king of the North in Daniel 11, becomes strong with a small people, Media. It is upon his death, that the false prophet will arise to join forces with the little horn as the kings of Media - Persia. But we also learn that the little horn is responsible for this: *[[Dan 8:11]] KJV* Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. What we should grasp at this point is that the 42 months of the Ram are the same as the desolation of the holy city, Rev 11:2; 13:5 ...and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. ...and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Which brings us to this: *[[Dan 8:12]] KJV* And an host was given [him] against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. That host is mystery, Babylon. This is when God's throne will be established in Elam, the heart of Babylon. Only one city has ever been God's home. Jerusalem is the harlot, because 1. He is the 1 true God, and idolatry and abomination can only be based on a forsaking of HIM for false gods. All true prophets are HIS prophets, who have arisen in condemnation of those who have forsaken HIM. 2. Mystery, Babylon will be the place where HE will be worshipped during this desolation. He will draw all nations there to manifest their blatant rejection of HIM. 3. When Jerusalem is destroyed by the little horn, waters will then flow from there: To be continued. Blessings The PuP
  4. Da Puppers

    A compendium of the beast. Dan 7, Rev 13, Rev 17.

    Five are fallen. #1-#5. One IS. #6. One shall continue a short space. #7 One is of the 7. #8 But the beast IS NOT. The beast is the kingdom, but not the king, per se. (You can't have a kingdom without a king. ) At the time (of John writing) the 6th king IS, but the beast/ kingdom IS NOT. This shows that the 7 KINGS are referring to those who reigned over the great city, which is Jerusalem. So who are these 7 kings, and who is the 8th? *[[Rev 17:18]] KJV* And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. The reason that the 8th is only OF the seven kings, and is not an 8th king is because the 7 succeeded in reigning over Jerusalem, but the 8th will fail in his attempt. The 8th attempt is the battle of Armageddon, at the return of Jesus. This 8th kings armies will not reach Jerusalem, but will be defeated far from there in the valley of Megiddo. Apollyon/Abaddon will fail as 8th head of the kingdom that WAS NOT in John's day. What is this kingdom? It definitely is not the kingdom that WAS in John's day, which is Rome, but it is a kingdom that was not in John's day. That kingdom/ beast is described by both John, and Daniel. In Daniel 8, we have a ram with two horns, with the higher one coming up last. In Rev 13 we have a lamb with 2 horns that comes up after the 1st beast from the sea, THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH. This is the same as the one who comes up afterward (of the little horn) and is the 4th beast that arises out of the earth. He subdues the other 3 kings that arose out of the earth. From this we read: Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. As per Dan 8:4, we see that this 4th beast desires that none of the other 3 beasts might stand before him. 2 Esdras 12,13 conveys to us that the he-goat of Daniel 8 is the first of the other 3 beasts, to come against the Ram. What is this kingdom? None other than Media - Persia. Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. The little horn, as evidence of his attack on Jerusalem, is said to : Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. The little horn is given dominion over the pleasant land (Israel), but the Ram is not. He is seen advancing to the North, the South, and to the West. The Ram, will be responsible for stirring up all against the Grecian empire: Dan 11:2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. I have testified, with some scriptures, that the 7th & 8th kings of Rev 17, are the little horn and Apollyon, as the head of M-P kingdom. The 6th king is Domitian, in his former attack on Jerusalem by Rome. Who are the 1st five? #5 is King Neb. #4 is probably Sennacherib, king of Assyria, 2Ch 32:2 And when Hezekiah saw that Sennacherib was come, and that he was purposed to fight against Jerusalem, #3 is probably Jehoash, king of Israel, 2Ki 14:13 And Jehoash king of Israel took Amaziah king of Judah, the son of Jehoash the son of Ahaziah, at Bethshemesh, and came to Jerusalem, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem from the gate of Ephraim unto the corner gate, four hundred cubits. #2 is probably Rezin, king of Syria, 2Ch 28:5 Wherefore the LORD his God delivered (Ahaz) into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. #1 is probably Shishak, king of Egypt, when Rehoboam was king of Judah. *[[1Ki 14:25]] KJV* And it came to pass in the fifth year of king Rehoboam, that Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem: I know that this is probably far from what anyone currently believes. The important point to grasp is that the 7 heads and 10 horns, represent the geographical domain of the same kingdom, from the beginning of the great tribulation, until the battle of Armageddon, 3.5 years later. Blessings The PuP
  5. This is my attempt to give an orderly fashion to the beast. For your best understanding of things, keep these things in mind. 1. A beast is a kingdom. It represents a conglomeration of nations, portrayed as horns in Daniel, and in Revelation. Individual heads of these nations are represented by standing horns in Daniel, and by Heads in Revelation. The beast does not represent its ruling authority, just the kingdom. But a kingdom is not a kingdom without a king, so it is not without a ruling authority. 2. The great tribulation begins when Michael stands up, as per Daniel 12:1. Verse 7 says that the end of these wonders will take place 3.5 years later: *[[Dan 12:7]] KJV* And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. But 3.5 years is not equal to 42 months. Time, times, and half a time, is a Jewish reckoning of 43 or 44 months, depending upon its starting point. Three complete years on a Jewish calendar will have 37 months (90% of the time) or 38 months (10% of the time), which means that 3.5 years will have 43 or 44 months. Therefore 42 months is less than 3.5 years. It is the period found here: *[[Dan 7:25]] KJV* And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the DIVIDING OF TIME. The 42 months of Rev 13 pertains to this time. The time of the little horn pertains to the onset of the great tribulation until the beginning of the 42 months, no more than 2 months. 42 months is also only 1239 days, confirming that it to, is less than 1260 days used earlier in Rev. 3. This compendium is to give fluid understanding to the visions and interpretations of Daniel and John. 4. John's perspective in Rev 17 is twofold in nature. A. It is at the time of the 6th king, Domitian, but before the rise of the 7th or 8th kings [NOT KINGDOMS]. The 7th king corresponds to the time of great tribulation under the auspices of the little horn. The 8th one continues for 42 months after, and is the beast from the earth of Rev 13, aka the 4th of 4 kings from Daniel 7 to arise "from the earth". So here goes. B. It is also at the time when the beast IS NOT. I.e., when the kingdom is not in existence. It does not represent the king or head of the kingdom, NOT BEING IN EXISTENCE, in John's day. In essence, we have: 1. The 6th king IS, and, 2. The Beast, IS NOT. This is because the "beast/ kingdom", which is not, will be headed up by the 7th and 8th kings. This is dually presented as the Ram with 2 horns in Daniel 8, AND the Lamb with 2 horns in Revelation 13. Here is a compendium of the beast as found in Dan 7, Rev 13 & Rev 17. Dan 7:7, After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. Rev 17:7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that w Rev 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Dan 7:8, I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. Rev 17:12-14 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Dan 7:21-23 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Dan 7:9-11 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. [4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Dan 7:24-25. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Rev 13:3 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Dan 7:26. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. Dan 7:27. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. I will follow later this with an exegesis of the 7, rather 8 kings, not kingdoms, of Rev 17 Blessings The PuP
  6. Da Puppers

    Textual approach to Revelation 1:1

    Does this mean that the whole of the book, from the beginning words of chapter 1 unto the new heavens and new earth are all part of his revelation? The PuP
  7. Septuagint: Four Times: Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 1 Maccabees 2:15; Jeremiah 2:19. Every time it means apostasy or rebellion in a religious or political sense—never used as a spatial or physical sense. Koine Greek Literature: In Moulton and Milligan’s, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-Literary Sources, it is demonstrated that this term is only used in the political or religious defection sense—again, never used in a spatial departure sense (pp. 68–9). Further, even pretribulationist scholar Paul Feinberg admits, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” He is correct. Classical Greek: The classical Greek Liddell and Scott lexicon lists the primary meaning of apostasia as “defection, revolt”; and “departure, disappearance” as a secondary meaning. The only example of this secondary meaning of spatial departure is found five centuries later after the New Testament. It is sloppy and simply fallacious to read back, not only an obscure meaning but one that is five centuries after the New Testament! Patristic Greek: The standard Greek lexicon for Patristic Greek Lampe has the primary meaning of apostasia as “revolt, defection” and gives only one example of a spatial departure. This one instance is found in a NT apocryphal work on the tradition of the Assumption of Mary. Again, outside of the Koine period dated to the later 5th century A.D. So what do we make of all this lexical evidence? Here are the documented lexical facts: There were five Greek sources examined. The most weighty and important sources are in the Koine period, the New Testament and the Septuagint–not a single instance does apostasia carry the meaning of “physical departure.” Instead, every instance has the meaning of religious or political departure. The last two sources—Classical and Patristic Greek—are the least weighty and important because they are the furthest removed from the New Testament. There were only two instances from these sources that have a physical departure meaning—and both of these examples are dated late well into the 5th-6th century. This is why one will not find the “physical” (i.e. spatial) meaning in standard New Testament lexicons. BDAG defines this word as “defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith” BDAG‘s predecessor Thayer Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Brown) Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (Balz) A third appeal to the cognate verb So how does the pretribber respond to these lexical facts? This is where the desperate leap takes place. We have done a responsible thorough examination of the noun apostasia demonstrating that the term does not carry a “physical-spatial” meaning in the Koine period. The pretribber will make the leap by pointing to the cognate verb form of apostasia, which is aphistemi, which means “to withdraw, remove, depart, leave.” It is used 14 times in the NT and is used both in a spatial and non-spatial sense. This is where the leap happens by assuming that the verb meaning carries over to the noun meaning. E. S. English succinctly states the pretrib reasoning: “since a noun takes its meaning from the verb, the noun, too, may have such a broad connotation.” Davey goes further saying, “Since the root verb has this meaning of ‘departure’ from a person or place in a geographical sense, would not its derivatives have the same foundational word meaning.” Enter the cognate and root fallacy. Cognates and roots is not the way any responsible exegete determines word meanings (Imagine reading the newspaper this way. Or love letters!) Instead, word meanings are determined by semantic range and its usage in context. Even Feinberg rejects this naïve method when he comments on this specific word: “the meaning of derivative nouns must be established through their usage.” (emphasis his) Perfect case in point: aphistemi Apostasion is a cognate noun to this verb, which only means “divorce or some other legal act of separation.” Apostater another cognate noun which means “one who has power to dissolve an assembly” or “to decide a question.” Since these derivative nouns do not contain the meaning of a spatial or physical departure (as the pretribber will not argue), there is absolutely no basis to assume that our target noun apostasia does as well. In other words, the pretrib cannot have their lexical cake and eat it too. It is first rank special pleading. The fourth appeal: context Since the semantic range does not include “physical or spatial departure” it is moot to even evaluate context—unless someone wants to argue that this is the only instance within 500 years that the term means a “physical departure”! Nevertheless, let’s argue context. To interpret the word “rebellion” in v. 3 as the “rapture” does not comport with the context, and as we will see it makes Paul unintelligible, even humorous. First, Paul is making a contrast of what precedes and what follows. The “gathering” (rapture) and parousia/day of the Lord is what follows (“For that day will not come unless”) the rebellion and revelation of the man of lawlessness. The pretrib view would have Paul in essence saying, “The rapture cannot happen until the rapture happens” But Paul is clearly marking certain events as signs or conditions that must take place before Christ’s return. Second, Paul does not simply mention “rebellion” (apostasy) and leave it at that. But the verse begins with Paul’s exhortation, “Let no one deceive you in any way.” This is followed by “For,” which in this case is called an “explanatory hoti (ὅτι).” That is to say, Paul is connecting the exhortation not to be deceived with the fact of rebellion and the man of lawlessness being revealed. In addition, some pretrib teachers have attempted to argue that since there is an article “the” before “rebellion” it indicates that the Thessalonians were familiar with some previous teaching by Paul. This is baseless, since they have to assume that it refers to the rapture. It is classic begging the question. But what does the context show us? Since this word in the Koine period always meant a “religious or political departure” should we then not be surprised that Paul makes references in this very context to “the truth” and “the Christian faith”? Indeed, he does: v. 2 “not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed” v. 3 “Let no one deceive you in any way” v. 10 “they refused to love the truth” v. 11 “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false” v. 13 “through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth” v. 15 “stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” In addition, the rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness are not two disconnected or unrelated events, but should be seen as a two-fold unifying event: “first” refers to both of the events that must happen before the day of the Lord. And what is the connection between Antichrist and the apostasy/rebellion? “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9–11. I recognize that there are other viewpoints of who actually apostatizes: My own position is #2 because I believe the immediate context in chapter 2 of the Antichrist’s activity informs us of the identity of the rebellion. Nevertheless, this is not particularly essential to my point in this article. Here is the big picture: The pretribulational “Physical Departure” argument fails on all four levels: It fails on appealing to early English versions It fails on appealing to five bodies of Greek literature It fails on appealing to its verbal cognate form It fails on appealing to context. Even the most noted pretibulational scholar John F. Walvoord did not take this “physical departure” interpretation: In the first edition of his popular book The Rapture Question (1957) he defended the “Physical Departure” argument. But after considering some of these arguments put forth by Robert H. Gundry, Walvoord rejected this common pretrib argument which he notes in his second edition of The Rapture Question (1979). Also, noted pretrib scholar Paul Feinberg writes, “there is no reason to understand Paul’s use of apostasia as a reference to the rapture” (When the Trumpet Sounds, 311). https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/09/11/does-apostasia-in-2-thessalonians-23-refer-to-a-physical-departure-i-e-the-rapture/ Another point that is (contextually) missed is when Paul says, "that the day of Christ is present". The words "is present" conveys an ongoing issue. I hear of at least two ways that pre-tribbers view those words. 1. The rapture is imminent, 2. They missed the rapture and that they are in the days of Christ's ensuing wrath. Either way implies that it is not a single day that he is referring to, but a period of days. To choose option 1, means that Paul is trying to tell them that the rapture is NOT imminent, which would be contrary to pretrib theology that the rapture IS imminent. And even if he was implying that the Thessalonians DIDN'T think the rapture was imminent, means that the revealing of the man of sin is what is preventing the rapture from happening. From there you would have to contradict the timing of the revealing of the man of sin to take place before the final 7 years and not at the midpoint found in the book of revelation [if you actually did think it was an imminency issue]. If you choose option 2, then you are admitting that the "day of Christ" is actually about days of his vengeance, as referred to in 2 Thess 1:4ff. If "day of Christ" refers to a single day, then it could only be the rapture or the 2nd advent. In which case you are back to a faulty imminency belief, OR , as you pointed out, "the rapture can't happen until the rapture takes place". In which case, this takes us back to the day of Christ being an ongoing issue, and therefore refers to a period of days and not a single day. If, the "day of Christ", is in fact, a single day, then THAT day is not the rapture, but must be referring to a specific day of falling away that occurs, OR, it refers to the day that the man of sin is revealed. Either "day" causes problems for pretrib. I personally see that day referring to a great falling away associated with the great day of tribulation associated with the 6th seal. Others see it as the revealing day of the man of sin. The falling away would refer to both Jews and Christians. To Christians, in accordance with the principles of the parable of the sower. To Jews, in accordance with Romans 11 when the Deliverer turns away (caused to depart from the truths of the law) ungodliness from Jacob. This would agree with Isaiah 6 when it speaks of a great forsaking taking place in the land of Israel. *[[Isa 6:12]] KJV* And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. I personally think that the text of 2 Thess 2 that follows, is that the revealing of the man of sin is part of God's (Christ's) punishment for rejecting the gospel message. This might appear to favor pretrib theology [that the revealing takes place after the rapture] but I don't think God will wait 3.5 after the rapture to begin punishing those that rejected the gospel. The "day of Christ" is in fact the time of his vengeance. "His vengeance" would be the distinguishable vengeance found with the 6th seal: *[[Rev 6:16]] KJV* And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Blessings The PuP
  8. Da Puppers

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Eventually, yes. But I presented the scripture that shows initially, no. It is directed only at Israel. You fail to grasp the selective judgment of God, as if He is not capable. Paul said that the wrath of God upon the Jew, will bring produce wrath and tribulation [and indignation and anguish] from them. Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing, by the mere fact that the [cause and] effects of God's wrath upon them. Do they work in tandem? Of course, but they are not the same. So what does this have to do with the church missing, not being appointed to be here, in the times of great tribulation. God will be dishing out his wrath, upon the Jews, NOT the great tribulation. It is the result of God's wrath, but not equal to. When Paul said "treasurest up unto thyself wrath", that is man's response to God's wrath being poured out on this initial segment upon the Jews. The righteous judgment of God, eternal life, being conferred, comes in simultaneous fashion as his day of wrath. The simultaneous righteous judgment [at the time of wrath upon the Jews] is unto those who are seeking for, but not yet conferred, GLORY, HONOR AND IMMORTALITY. What is expected of them? Patient continuance! (Hupomone). The two examples from Rev 13 & 14 of hupomone, were not necessarily upon the Gentile arm of the people of God, collectively defined as the church of Jews and Gentiles. But were given as examples of how the bible defines hupomone. Thayer dictionary also defines it as unswerving faith in the midst of one's greatest tribulations and persecutions. So, yes, the have negated your premise that the church will be called upon to experience the great tribulation, even as 2 Thess 1 & 2 defines its purpose: to prove those who are worthy to enter the kingdom. *[[2Th 1:5]] KJV* Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: What constitutes worthiness to enter the kingdom? We are not talking about salvation by works, but rather what will unmask feigned faith from that which is genuine. According to the parable of the sower, they are: 1. Tribulations 2. Persecutions 3. Cares of this life, and 4.Deceitfulness of riches. Concerning entering the kingdom, Jesus dais this: *[[Mat 7:21]] KJV* Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. *[[Mat 7:22]] KJV* Many will say to me IN THAT DAY, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? *[[Mat 7:23]] KJV* And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. What does hidden and/ or protecting Israel during those days, have to do with REMOVING the church. Surely you don't believe that God is going to rapture unrepentant Israel to heaven do you? The very fact that he protected a group of people, HIS people from the effects of his wrath upon others, ought to prove to you that he can selectively dish out his wrath upon whosoever, whenever, wheresoever he wants. That would be like saying that because Jesus spoke of a "future" great tribulation, that it will never come because the future will always be in the future. The expectations of God are the same for every generation. Whether it be the first century Thessalonians or us. The resulting promise of rest from our persecutors, will come to all at the same time: *[[2Th 1:7]] KJV* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: What is the obedience of the gospel? Walking by faith! *[[Rom 8:35]] KJV* Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Blessings The PuP
  9. Da Puppers

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    I would suggest some reading on the righteous judgment of God, Romans 2:1-10;2 Thess 1:1-10; Hebrews 6:10. *[[Heb 6:10]] KJV* For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. In Romans 2, Paul tells us that the day of God's wrath, that begins upon the Jew first, is also the day of revelation of the righteous judgment of God. *[[Rom 2:5]] KJV* But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; I have gone over this with you before. When indignation, wrath, tribulation and anguish comes upon the Jews, that those who are seeking for glory, honor and immortality, to have patient continuance (G5281,hupomone) in well doing. I have also shown you that hupomone is to persevere with faith thru even the greatest trials and suffering. Here is a scriptural demonstration of hupomone: *[[Rev 13:10]] KJV* He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. *[[Rev 14:11]] KJV* And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. HERE is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 2 THESS 1 also speaks of the righteous judgment of God: *[[2Th 1:4]] KJV* So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Blessings The PuP
  10. Da Puppers

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    In reading some of your posts, i think you grasp the scope of things (of the GT) concerning the comprehensive effect upon the whole world, but are a little bit amiss concerning the scope of things that will affect each of the millions of individuals affected. Paul said this: *[[1Co 10:13]] KJV* There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. What WILL make the great tribulation, THE WORST EVER, will be the comprehensive scope of those affected and not the individual tribulations that men will experience. Tell me, what tribulations might we exempt us from that day coming upon the people of God? Death coming slowly or quickly? torture by flame or sword? Jail or prison? Alone or amongst many? missiles or bullets? Tell me, what are we exempt from? Blessings The PuP
  11. Da Puppers

    The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days

    Thanks for explaining. I see things very similar concerning the timing of days. Day 1290 falling in the latter part of the feast of unleavened bread. I used to think that the battle lines between the kings of the north and south was over the land of Egypt, but i now lean more heavily to Syria. Anyhow, i see it as a place of Muslim civil war between the Shia and Sunni. I believe the tables will turn and bring on the great tribulation when they join forces in a mutual hatred of Israel. Blessings The PuP
  12. Da Puppers

    We can know the Day and Hour of His Return

    Though i don't disagree with the premise of the OP, I don't agree with the premise nor the conclusions regarding the premise. The premise is relating to knowing the "time of 'his return'". The operative word is know, G1492, eido, along with knew, , G1097, ginosko. Firstly, one should note is that this concerns the time of GREAT tribulation, the worst in all of human history, even greater than Noah's flood. You say, "how could anything be worse than Noah's flood when only 8 people survived? ". Without the intervention of God to shorten THOSE days of great tribulation, NO FLESH would be saved. The comparison of population in Noah's day to that of that day, is miniscule. An estimated thousand times more people will die in the great tribulation than in the flood of Noah. By sheer numbers alone that future day will be most terrible. The forbearance of God to shorten the days, speaks very loud to the great fear upon men's hearts, that will cause many to perish just from the thought of how terrible it really will be: *[[Luk 21:26]] KJV* Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. It is the hour in which heaven and earth would pass away, that Jesus responds: *[[Mat 24:35]] KJV* Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Jesus said that no man nor angel, knows how bad it will be in that hour. No man has ever experienced any time like it. Not even in Noah's day. Look at what Jesus said concerning the days of Noah: *[[Mat 24:38]] KJV* For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [Jesus was not referring to the 100+ 'years ' before the flood, but the days]. *[[Mat 24:39]] KJV* And knew [ginosko] not UNTIL the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Now we know that the doors of the ark were open until 7 days before the flood. When God shut the doors, the people outside the ark knew that judgment was imminent...7 DAYS BEFORE! The scripture also says that it never, ever rained until that day. Notice Jesus's words again. UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME...! And not "when God shut the doors". When Jesus said that no man KNOWS the day and hour, it is not a quantitative measure of when, but rather a qualitative measure of what the day will encompass. Jesus said that the great tribulation WILL BE the worst ever... and not that it WOULD HAVE BEEN the worst. With or without the shortening of days, it will still be the worst in all of human history. Even yet, it will be instigated by the wickedness of men, and that by comparative tribulations of men, will be the worst in all of human history. It is God's hand that puts a stay on the wicked devices of man. So, yes, I agree with Jesus, when he says "no man knows the day or hour". It is not a question of mystery concerning when, but rather about the what. *[[1Th 5:1]] KJV* But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. Blessings The PuP
  13. Da Puppers

    The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days

    You say that you are: "Considering an entirely different understanding". And I have heard you refer to yourself as a "short tribber". Am i rightly understanding you to mean that the great tribulation occurs between days 1290 and 1335? Could you elaborate some? The PuP
  14. Da Puppers

    SIGNS in the Sun and Moon

    You might try paying attention to the context: *[[Rev 16:21]] KJV* And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. The PuP