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Da Puppers

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  1. I think you are confusing a robe of righteousness with a crown of righteousness. Paul said that he would give to Paul and as many as that love his appearing, a crown of righteousness AT HIS APPEARING. Next, we see that the martyrs under the altar in heaven, at the time of the opening of the 5th seal, are given white robes and told to wait for their brethren who are to be killed as they were before revenge would be administered on those responsible. This is before the rapture, because, Jesus (in Luke 17 & 21) and Paul (in 2 Thess 1:7,8) says that Jesus will be our avenger AT HIS REVELATION . So too then, the great multitude of rev 7, has not put on the cloak of immortality. I.e., white robes are symbolic of the righteousness of Christ, and not immortality. If I didn't make it clear, Death & Hell are the abode of the wicked, even tho I don't know how to distinguish why a person goes to one or the other. The story of the rich man and Lazarus confirms that the wicked dead suffer torment in hell, and that the righteous dwell in the paradise of Abraham's bosom. A great gulf is fixed between Hell and Paradise. As I have already said, paradise surrounds the throne of God. As revelation 4,7 & 15 testifies and the molten sea that Solomon placed beneath the cherubim of the mercy seat, the sea of glass is the abode of the unresurrected righteous souls. At the time of the GWTJ, there are souls of the dead abiding in the abode of Death, Hell and the Sea of glass. They are emptied at that time and the resurrected dead then stand before the throne to be judged for their works (in the flesh). It is not a judgment of whether one is saved or not. Jesus said that all judgment was given to him and that judgment consisted of one of 2 things. The resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. It is OUR faith IN JESUS, and not Jesus himself, nor our works that determines our eligibility for the resurrection of life. [Jesus is the intercessory advocate between God and man, but it is the Father that says yes or no to the pleas of Jesus. Jesus said he would confess/deny our "faith/lack of" BEFORE THE FATHER] . And it is the absence of faith that seals and confirms our condemnation to the lake of fire. [He that believes not is condemned already]. All that are in the grave shall hear his voice... some to life, some to damnation. With all that being said, where (and please give your explanation of why) in my explanation do you see that I am in error, to claim that this is equal to annihilitionism? Be Blessed The PuP
  2. No, I don't believe in soul sleep. Death & Hell,imo, can/are used with an interchangeable definition. [I am not simply talking about death being one definition, and hell As another, but rather conceptually defined] It refers to both: 1. As a place(s), and 2. The state of man when the body is separated from the soul and/ or spirit of man. It is only a temporal punishment because: 1. The reunification of the body and soul is certain. Because this reunification of the body & soul is at point in time, either just before or just after the millennium, the torment "in hell " is a finite punishment, in regards to time, i.e., it will end and be replaced by an eternal one at the point of resurrection. 2. The terminus for death/ hell are when they are cast into the lake of fire. The concept of this place of separation will cease upon the final resurrecting of all of mankind at the time of the GWTJ. With the completed resurrection of all, and the abolishment of death, the place (abode) of death/ hell is empty and no one else will suffer death/ separation. Therefore, "death/ hell" is only a temporal punishment. It's not saying that punishment is only temporal, but the punishment that is experienced via death/ hell is. The punishment of the wicked is everlasting. As you are probably aware, the book of Enoch describes the abode of the departed souls as consisting of 4 compartments. Three of these are readily identifiable from our bibles. They are Death, Hell and Paradise. Enoch, explains at length, that the righteous (souls) are in a place that we cam paradise (even tho he may not specifically name it as such). Rev 2/3 states that the tree of life sits in the middle of the paradise of God. The 4th, I believe to be the abyss, aka known as the bottomless pit. This agrees with the idea that demons are the spirits of "souls" created thru giants as offspring of the angels that sinned and that have been chained up in tartaros. If you don't recall the subject of the 4 compartments from Enoch, I highly recommend doing a refresher course. I don't recall the chapters, other than somewhere in the first 15. It is good that we agree that Abaddon/ Apollyon is the same as the beast that ascends from the B.P. This means that you agree that he (already) has an immortal body. If I can get you to see that this beast from the earth is one and the same, I will feel like I have accomplished much. I would point you back to Daniel 7 where it says that these 4 beasts are kings that "arise from the earth", and that the beast from the earth in Rev 13, is this 4th king. After all, John says that Abaddon is the king from the bottomless pit. One last thought (here). I believe that Jude says that these angels that are reserved in chains are to be kept there until the judgmen of the great day (of God?). I am not adamant, but I believe that Enoch states this to be at the time of the GWTJ, and therefore are not the ones released at the 5th trumpet. It very well could be them, but I lean towards it not being them. I believe that Enoch says that there were (only) 200 angels that sinned. Be Blessed The PuP
  3. Verse list: Rev 9:1-3 KJV And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Men, are only rarely given the ability to see into the "physical " realm of the spirit world. Elisha and Gehazi were permitted to see the multitude of God's chariots that surrounded them. Jesus could see the demons in people before casting them out. From this passage of scripture, it is revealed to us that the bottomless pit is located somewhere beneath the surface of the air, because, this STAR, being cast to the earth that has the key to the B.P. and smoke (and locusts) arise/goes up from the pit and darkening the sun from view. My point being that this STAR had to descend into the earth to open the pit. My 2nd point being that Apollyon ascended from the PIT that was beneath the earth. Apollyon may or may not be the star that fell, but he unquestionably arises from the pit beneath the earth. But the pit is not the lake of fire. The LoF is located somewhere else, far, far, far away and is a place that is reserved for everlasting torment. It is located far away so that it cannot be seen and bring a remembrance into the hearts of the saints OF THOSE WHO DWELL THERE. There will be no tears in our eternal home! This leads me to the beasts from the sea and earh, later referred to as the beast and false prophet. Their end result is that they will be cast into the lake of fire. What this means is that they are in possession of an eternal nature during their time on earth. And because Apollyon is an angel, he too possesses an eternal nature. Unless you can believe that the seals, trumpets and vials are not of a concurrent concurrent nature, you would be hard pressed to believe me when I tell you that timing of the 5th trumpet and the 42 month rise and reign of the beast from the earth, occur at the same time. Let me assure you that I arrived at the simultaneous timing of these 2 events before I equated them to be one and the same. Let there be no confusion. Apollyon, the false prophet, beast from the earth, and the beast that ascends from the B.P. are all one and the same. Be Blessed The PuP
  4. What you don't get, and probably never will, is that God is in the midst of a process that will bring all of Israel to Jerusalem for judgment... to the temple for worship. He will bring upon them the worst of the heathen, where you can throw out the rules of the Geneva convention. The intensity of his fiery wrath that he will bring upon them, no mortal man has ever experienced. The day that no man knows is not about when it will take place, but rather it is about what and how bad it will be. You can believe otherwise if you want, but that only means that that day of the righteous judgment of the wrath of the lamb, will come upon you unprepared. Verse list: Rom 2:5-7 KJVBut after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom 8:17 KJVAnd if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:18 KJVFor I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 1Co 4:12 KJVAnd labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 2Co 1:5-7 KJVFor as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. Eph 6:13 KJV Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Phi 1:29 KJVFor unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Phi 3:10 KJVThat I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 1Th 3:3-4 KJVThat no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 2Th 1:4-5 KJVSo that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 1Ti 1:16 KJVHowbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 2Ti 1:12 KJVFor the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2Ti 2:10-12 KJVTherefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 2Ti 3:12 KJVYea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Be Blessed The PuP
  5. Nothing to ponder. You esteem the mere writings of men to be the words of God and ascribe "fulfilment" to things that are yet to be fulfilled. 1. Luk 21:22 KJV For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Written things that are to be fulfilled in these days of vengeance are the writings of the prophets of God, not the prophecies of men. You unequivocally claimed this to be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem: [THE FOLLOWING IS YOUR QUOTATION, NOT MINE] I ask you, were all the prophets fulfilled? Luk 24:44 KJV And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. You seem to bee blind to your own prescription for interpreting the Olivet Discourse, concerning ye,you,your & ALL. Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise YE, when YE shall see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. There is nothing to ponder because your esteem of the words of God and men are much different than mine. Be Blessed The PuP
  6. Rev 1:20 & 12:4,9 unequivocally equates the symbolic use of star for an angel. So, the star that was cast down in Rev 9:1 is an angel. So, when Apollyon is identified as the "Angel of the bottomless pit", you can't rule out that Apollyon and the star that was cast down are one and the same. It is an inconclusive yes or no. But I do agree with you that Apollyon is the beast that ascends from the pit. But I do think that the definition of "fall from heaven", meaning to be thrown/ cast down, AND the fact that this STAR is an angel with the key to the bottomless pit, would, according to your view, mean that there are 2 angels in view with ties to the B.P. The result would be an ambiguous reference to THE ANGEL of the B.P. Enough said to say that we agree that Apollyon is the beast that ascends from the pit. Jesus said that nothing would pass from the law until ALL of it was fulfilled. Besides this, Because Passover in which Jesus was crucified did not fall on the 1st day of the week the fulfilment of the 7 days of unleavened cannot be said to have been fulfilled. If you believe that the coming of Jesus will be in accordance with the "fulfilment" of the fall feasts, namely that of the day of atonement or the feast of Tabernacles, then it is 100% certain that the 1263.5 days of the ministry of the 2 witnesses, OR the 1290th day before when the AoD is set up, [one or the other] will fall within, on, or very near the feast of unleavened bread. Be Blessed The PuP
  7. What I don't understand about your view, is that: As the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, is he not the star that falls (pipto/cast down) FROM HEAVEN at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, how can he fall from heaven if he is currently in the pit? Be Blessed The PuP
  8. I pray that any disagreements that we have would only further encourage OUR pursuit of the truth. I wholeheartedly agree that neither of us has a monopoly on the truth. Atter all, I did say that I want to pick your brain, meaning that I want to see things from your perspective, in hopes of increasing my understanding of things. It's a narrow minded perspective that produces a narrow minded understanding. Let's not let any disagreements we have hinder our brain picking. Be very blessed The PuP
  9. I used to hold to the view that the 7 heads of Rev 13 & 17 was referring to an era portraying 7 kingdoms [for a long time, I might add]... until I began to see that the 7 heads are the 7 kings found within the 4th beast kingdom. What officially changed my mind? 2 principal elements within Daniel 7. 1. The little horn dies (as the leader of this 4th beast) and is succeeded by "another that shall rise after, and be diverse from the first". Dan 7:24 KJV And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Here it says that this another shall arise AFTER THEM. But earlier in Daniel 7 it says that the little horn rises AMONG them and that this little horn dies [and is given to the burning flame] Dan 7:8 KJV I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up AMONG them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. What had me confused for the longest time was why does John speak of a beast from the earth AND a beast from the sea with the beast from the earth arising after the beast from the sea. So when I read that "another shall arise after" in Daniel, I had to ask myself, "is this referring to two kings arising out of this one kingdom or is there 2 beasts being referred to? Since Daniel's vision is a vision of 4 beasts rising from the sea, the answer had to be that there were not 5 beasts rising from the sea, but that there were in fact 2 different kings who would rule over this 4th kingdom/ beast. Daniel goes so far to tell us that this 4th beast IS the 4th kingdom. Granted a kingdom must have a king to rule over it, but a beast is a kingdom, and not simply a king. When you apply this consistency [a beast = a kingdom] this eliminates the notion from Rev 13 that the 7 heads represents 7 different kingdoms. But rather they (the heads) represent the 7 kings ruling over the 10 sovereign nations/ horns of Daniels 4th beast. The beast from the earth (Rev 13) is this 2nd king of this same kingdom that "arises after the first (king) " Ultimately this means that the one head (of the 7) that receives the mortal wound is the little horn whose body is given to the burning flame. And, because he is seen to recover as one of the 7 heads on the beast from the sea, the kingdom of the 4th beast continues on, but with a new head(a king! ). The beast from the earth with 2 horns is this same kingdom, but now having 2 heads/ horns. Let me post that verse for you. Rev 13:11 KJV And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. Be Blessed The PuP
  10. In speaking of the DOTL, Joel says this, It is... Joe 2:2 KJV A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. FROM this we know that the time of Jacobs trouble and the DOTL are synonymous, and that it will be the worst of times. I didn't use the word tribulation because I am not sure that the "tribulation of those days", that is immediately followed by this time of Jacobs trouble is included in these contiguous periods of time. The period of tribulation that precedes Jacobs trouble will (my opinion) probably be the worst "tribulation" that the world will ever know, only to be followed by an even worse period of time. It's like running a preliminary track race where someone sets a world record, only to have it bested in the race finals. Let me finish this post by saying that I question your reasoning that a horn represents a king. Here's why. Daniel was told that 3 of the first horns were uprooted, meaning that they were deposed from authority. If this meant that both the king and his kingdom ceased from authority, There should be a noted decrease in the number of horns. But there is not. This 4th kingdom is always referred to as having 10 horns. Though 3 kings are uprooted, those kingdoms' governmental authority [sovereignty] remains. There are 10 horns, but only 7 kings. Be Blessed The PuP P.S. I think the words "governments authority" would be better replaced with sovereignty.
  11. Thank you for your reply. Tho we differ in regards to the rapture, we share several views. Instead of just one day, in the very near middle of the 70th week, I believe that it takes 7 days for the 7 seals. [To explain in very brief fashion, The seals are opened during the feast of unleavened bread (Deuteronomy calls it eating the bread of affliction) and Armageddon takes place 3.5 years later at the feast of Tabernacles...1269 days is a common length of time between Passover and Tabernacles]. We also share a common view (tho a minority opinion) of Apollyon. I do want to ask, Do you equate Apollyon with either the false prophet and/ or the man of sin? Be Blessed The PuP
  12. The inferrent view that the AoD equates to the man of sin "sitting" in the temple is akin to a forensic pathologist comes forward (50 years after the murder of Jane Doe) with evidence that John Doe murdered his wife, when no evidence, up to that time, has been brought forward to even suspect that he was involved in her murder. No one wants to believe it, primarily because they thought they knew that John could not do such a thing. Equating "standing where it ought not" has been equated with "sitting in the temple", for such an extended period of time now, that it is just assumed to be true. As you know, changing long held beliefs, based on unsubstantiated evidence, is hard to change. Because so few alternatives have been presented, and because the truth of the matter has been elusive to identify (the Day of Christ is one of those mysteries), people have accepted the most plausible explanation that was based on an errant understanding that there would be a pretrib rapture of the church. Though I haven't specifically researched the origins of this view of the AoD = standing in the temple, all evidence points to this being the only basis for inferring this view. Paul did not speak of the man of sin as a revelation of a mystery per se, but noted that his revealing was absent from their understanding of when the day of Christ would come. Paul then elaborates to say that his revelation is equated with deceiving those who rejected the gospel in favor of the pursuit of pleasure. As you know that Romans 1 says that God's wrath is revealed from heaven against those who hold the truth IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, this revelation of the man of sin is part of this manifestation of the wrath of God. The revelation of Jesus is to manifest the secrets of men's hearts. These people acknowledge God and/ or Jesus with their mouths, but with their hearts they deny him. They maintain a secret denial of the lordship of Christ. Look at these words from Titus: Verse list: Tit 1:15-16 KJV Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 THEY profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. The word "they" in verse 16 is referring back to the "them" in v15 that are defiled and UNBELIEVING. Their WORKS serve to deny their profession of faith. Romans 2:1-10 and 2 Thess 1:4-10 speaks of G5281, hupomone, [suffering the greatest tribulation and persecution with enduring patience], as being part of the righteous judgment of God. Remember that the purpose of the man of sin is directed at these who profess to know God, but are workers of iniquity. Recall Jesus's words in Matt 7: "IN THAT DAY...I will say, depart from me he workers of iniquity". What day is Jesus referring to? The day that it comes time to ENTER the kingdom of heaven. I don't know if I have gotten my point across, but my point is this. The order of things are this: 1. AoD 2.Great tribulation and desolation (church present), 3.Revelation of the man of sin. My point being that because the AoD is seen before HE is revealed means that Paul is not alluding to the AoD when he speaks of this man of sin. They are totally different events. I'm not trying to be critical, just trying to get you to grasp the basics of my understanding, but if this is not within your grasp of understanding how things happen, our views take divergent paths at this point. If you wish to pursue my thought patterns, I would be glad to continue. Be Blessed The PuP
  13. Here is something that you may not be aware of. If day 1 of the 1290/1335 days begins on Tishri 1, Day #1334/5 falls on Pentecost about 70% of the time. "Blessed is he...Dan 12:12" corresponds to the future outpouring of the spirit on the feast of Pentecost, and the 7 trumpets correspond to the feast of weeks. Be Blessed The PuP
  14. Again, you make more claims of "fulfilled" scripture WITHOUT the support of scripture. I get it now. You believe "prophetic writing " equates to being scripture. And this is why "prophetic writing" does not stand alone. Let me reiterate what Peter said. "No prophecy of SCRIPTURE is of private interpretation". But you think he says that no writing of man, that I/you believe fulfills scripture, is not a private interpretation. You make two mistakes. 1. You disregard what the real scriptures say. All 3 synoptic writers include the parable of the fig tree. To which, Matthew says: Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise YE, when YE shall see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors...Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled. Matthew and Mark both say that ALL these things shall come on "this generation". Mar 13:30 KJV Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be done. Included in the list of ALL things that (this generation) "THEY" shall SEE is Jesus coming in the clouds with power and glory: Mat 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mar 13:26 KJV And then shall THEY see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Luk 21:27 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory...Luk 21:32 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Secondly, you disregard what the scriptures say, even when you quote them: Luk 21:22 KJV For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN may be fulfilled. You need to pay more attention to what God says, and less of what man says. Be Blessed The PuP
  15. Am I understanding this statement right?... Like the Abomination committed by Antiochus,The abominable action comes first, andthe time of desolations follows. That you place the 1290 days at the beginning of the 70th week? [I agree with that assessment. And to that I would say that this is one of the most fundamental building blocks to eschatology that almost no one gets it right. I do want to "pick your brain" and dialogue about our beliefs]. Be Blessed The PuP
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