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Patrick Miron

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  1. A Secular Bible Question

    GREAT! So then you believe that there is BUT ONE True God That God CAN have only one True set of Faith Beliefs And that He Founded only One True Church {All churches are defined by their own freely chosen set of Faith-beliefs} All biblically provable Continued Blessings, Patrick
  2. A Secular Bible Question

    I LOVED this! Even though of it is not literally from the GOSPELS... Thanks for sharing it, Patrick
  3. A Secular Bible Question

    THAT my friend is both a wise and an interesting choice: How do YOU define "Truth"? Blessings, Patrick
  4. A Secular Bible Question

    God choice; I've been asked this before and received a passing grade from JESUS. Continued Blessings, Patrick
  5. 1 John 4:8 God IS love.

    What a beautiful thought and shared witness. THANK YOU! While reading this I felt a pain of deep sorrow for those who for whatever reason have left the Catholic church. Only the Catholic & Orthodox Churches HAVE Jesus alive and in Person: "Really, Truly and Substantially Present" in our churches and in Holy Communion testified to by FIVE different Catholic Authors of the New Testament; four of whom gave their lives as martyrs; {the 5th. John tried to by was saved miraculously from being BOILED IN OIL}... So in a literal sense leaving the RCC is abandoning God. Heb. 6: 2-6 [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [3] And this will we do, if God permit. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, {Catholic Holy Communion}the powers of the world to come, DOUAY BIBLE EXPLANATIONS>>>[1] "The word of the beginning": The first rudiments of the Christian doctrine. [4] "It is impossible": The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell. [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. [8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt." May God guide their path back to Him, Patrick
  6. A Secular Bible Question

    If you were asked: Can YOU choose One Word to describe the entire Bible; WHAT would that one word be? And Why?
  7. PAPAL INFALLIBILITY

    OK my friend, I can see that is YOU'RE Story and your going to stick with it. Good luck with that. BTW; I thought they were Jewish-Catholics May GOD guide our paths, Patrick
  8. I'm A Roman Catholic

    I wonder my friend if you'd care to share WHY YOU left the RCC? [1] Hi again Brother Patrick in Jesus' name. Not in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? That will be for the future millenniam, but for now we read in Col 3:17 in the Catholic bible I have that "Whatever I do in in word, or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus. My friend, it is small things at first that tradition surpasses, but they grow in importance to the saint of God as error creeps in. King James Version Matthew 28:19-20 “19 Go YOU therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and, lo, I am with YOU always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. NOTE my new friend that here Jesus is speaking directly to and exclusively too His Catholic Apostles; who HE instructs on what HE demands be done in Christian Baptism. [2] Thanks for your kind reply. I’ll be glad to give my testimony as to the reasons of my conversion from Catholicism, although I will not go into all the negative issues many bring forth in religious differences. My beliefs were challenged simply with the word of God, and I would search my bible to counter anything I didn’t know, and/or believe. YOU are MOST welcome! … After some of the attacks and the explosion of hated from people who have not even read in its entirely my well evidenced {and lengthy} replies is simply stupid. Ignorance in it actual and charitable meaning “not knowing”, I can deal with; ….bigoted stupidly; not so much. By the way, I’m NOT in the conversion business; which is the exclusive domain of Jesus Himself. Have you read though Heb. 6: ….” He warns them of the danger of falling by apostasy and exhorts them to patience and perseverance.” [1] Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect, not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works, and of faith towards God, [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [3] And this will we do, if God permit. [4] For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, {Holy Communion} and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, {Confirmed} [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come [DOUAY BIBLE ECPLANATIONS [1] "The word of the beginning": The first rudiments of the Christian doctrine. [4] "It is impossible": The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell. [6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. [7] For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. [8] But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.” End quotes [3] I had just been hired on a new job, and going through probably six months of classroom and online training for the position I had been hired for. One of my fellow new employees was an evangelistic non-denominational Christian, and asked if I was saved? At t 1-7he time my religious knowledge consisted of masses in Latin, and learning of much Church dogma, repetitive prayer, tradition, and I really didn’t know the answer to my friend’s question. An Informed Catholics reply to that is: “YES I am saved {Baptized} AND I’m still in the process of being saved {Sacramental Confession: John 20:19-23 and the Most Holy Eucharist which IS Jesus Himself on Person as testified to by 5 different authors of the NT.} I can address each of the above points if you’d like me to? [4] The context of his question was simple, and centered on John 3:16. Again in my Catholic bible, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that those who believe in Him may not perish, but may have life everlasting. That is a POWERFUL and Beautiful verse: AMEN! The KEY to right and full understanding of this verse is in the WORDS “who believe in Him.” … This implies a FULL & Correct belief in Him; hence also in the only Church and Only Faith desired and founded by Him personally; today’s RCC which can be proven both historically {for example the Bible is a Catholic birthed book fully authored by the end of the 1st Century}; and even Biblically if you’d care to know how? Was my Catholic bible that differently worded? It IS the percentage that HAS been changed that is notable. Not at all, and when challenged beyond my capacity to respond intelligently I would take my giant bible to my priest and go over it with him. The book of Galatians became an eye opener, and my priest began to believe I had become Lutheran on its teaching of works of the law. I reckon you’d have had to be there to really understand, but doctrines of purgatory fell away, tradition, worship of saints, including Mary and the Immaculate Conception no longer was part of my belief, and I truly came to know I am saved by having believed on my Lord Jesus Christ. Once again my new friend; I CAN address in charity and with clarity & facts each of these issues IF you’d care for me to do so? [6] You ever heard the term peace like a river? I do not believe I became any more saved, but I came to have a desire and hunger unsurpassed in my former walk with Christ. King David once said in Psalms, Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation, and for the first time I came to know that through coming to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord that brought closer me to God. It’s SAD that you could not find true JOY in the Catholic Church; especially because only in the Catholic & Orthodox Churches Jesus Christ is: Really, Truly and Substanually {actually} Present on Person. That my friend is what you have chosen to deny. The single biggest difference in Catholic & Protestant worship is that Catholic Worship IS Divine focused- Worship because GOD is really present to us; while Protestant worship has its focus on making YOU feel good about being there. Catholic Worship is {or ought to be} God-Centered-Worship. It is not about making US “feel good or even wanted for that matter.” It’s ALL about God and pleasing Him. [7] Bottom line, are we saved eternally or not, and why? ANSWER: We are saved eternally by: Being Baptized & dying without any unconfessed; or unremitted Mortal sins {1 John 5: 16-17; John 20:19-23} …. This IS God’s way unchanged by 19th Century mortal men. Much of the so-called Protestant churches do not believe this either, but I do. The Charismatic movement in The Catholic Church brought much light into the lives that partook of it, but control and tradition seem to continue, and again growing even to the point of returning to the Latin Mass by Pope Francis. As for Pope Francis and the Latin Mass: FROMYOUR LIPS to God’s ears. I’m 73 and remember the Latin Mass very well. [8] God loves you Patrick, and so do I. And my new friend, I LOVE You too! May our God guide OUR life paths to His Divine Will, Patrick
  9. PAPAL INFALLIBILITY

    My dear friend in Christ, On point #1 I was speaking directly to the POSTER; NOT the world in general. Your absolutely correct that the Bible has two distinct parts: The Old Testament which is a summary of the Jewish peoples struggles to FIND and believe in just One True God {Triune}…. It was authored by Jews to whom we owe a GREAT debt. The second part of the Bible; the so called “New Testament” was fully authored by Men known today to be Catholics. THAT FACT, and the fact that it was Catholic men who guided by the Holy Spirit; selected the 46 OT books to use; gives credence to the bible being a “Catholic Birthed Book,” Thank you for the quote. I AM well aware of it. CATHOLIC COMMENTARY: “Ver. 22.—Ye worship what (Arabic, whom) ye know not, &c. Here Christ gives a direct answer to the woman, and decides the Jews to be in the right in the controversy concerning the worship of God, condemning the Samaritans as schismatics. He says, You, 0 ye Samaritans, worship ye know not what, because ye worship God together with your Assyrian idols; and associating God as it were with idols, ye worship a false or fictitious God. Again the Samaritans had their own heresies and errors, which S. Epiphanius recapitulates. In the same manner the Turks and Jews worship a God whom they know not, because they deny Him to be in a Trinity of Persons. So also Calvin with his followers, in denying the omnipotence of God, and making Him cruel in condemning some men to hell without any demerit on their part, worship not a true, but a false God. For the true God is Almighty, and most kind. 2. and better. Ye worship, i.e. ye have a method of worship and sacrifice which ye do not know to have proceeded from God. For ye have framed it out of your own imagination, contrary to the will and law of God. But we Jews know what we worship, because we follow the way of worshipping God which was prescribed by Moses. For salvation, &c. Both because I, Christ, who am the Author of salvation, am not born of the Samaritans, but of the Jews, as well as because the true knowledge and worship of God, which leads men to salvation, formerly emanated from the Jews to the Gentiles, and now in the New Law will emanate from Me, a Jew, to all nations. END QUOTES Ahhhhh, JESUS was the First “Roman Catholic”….. HE it was who founded the RCC Church and Faith. Eph. 2: [19] Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, [20] Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: [21] In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. [22] In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.” Shalom; truly sorry for the omission. Your point is well taken. Patrick
  10. I'm A Roman Catholic

    I LOVE that quote! It was written BY CATHOLICS for non-catholics. My friend have YOU actually taken the time to READ ANY of my lengthy POST that include the evidence of our teachings and beliefs? If not you do me a grave injustice; by being too lazy to do so. I was very specific and expect YOU to be the same. God Bless you! Patrick
  11. PAPAL INFALLIBILITY

    Regards my Code of Canon Law POST: My friend in Christ, The Bible is only as "good" as the person reading it {Hence the thousands of differing Protestant churches; each identified by its OWN self- interpretation of the same Bible. For example you do not rightly grasp: Mt 10: 1-8 {God shares HIS Powers with His Catholic Apostles} Mt 16: 15-19 {and the unlimited POWERS & Authority of the Key's to Heavens Gate} John 17:17-20 { Where Jesus Gives HIMSELF as the Personal warranty of Catholic Church {HIS CHURCH] on ALL matters of Faith and Morals {RE: The Code of Canon Law}.... NO other Church can make and evidence THIS claim. Eph. 2: 20-22 {Where we are TAUGHT that Christ Church is "BUILT UPON THE CATHOLIC APOSTLES; JESUS HIMSELF BEING THE CORNERSTONE"} Eph. 4:1-6 {Where Christ specifies that He DESIRES just One True Church and Faith {and no my friend; this cannot mean all faiths are equal. Even GOD can have only one True set of Faith beliefs.} Mt. 28: 19-20 {Where Jesus directly and exclusively COMMANDS His Catholic Apostles to teach ALL that He has taught THEM to the entire World} 2 Peter 1: [16] For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. [17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," [18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. [19] And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. [20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, [21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Douay Bible explanation 20 "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation"... This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. 21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost. End Quotes Yes my friend, Catholics can quote the bible too; after all the Bible is a Catholic Birthed Book. God Bless you, Patrick
  12. I'm A Roman Catholic

    THANK YOU, Your kindness here is earth-shattering after the barrage of hate-mongrels I have had to endure. Ignorance is bliss and its parroted pontification of other-people hatred for what they don't even claim to have investigated themselves is staggering. I signed on to discuss and give evidence of the RCC teachings and beliefs. I certainly did not expect accolades and agreements; but thought that I might at least encounter a few people with intelligence enough to at least reasonably question what I spent hours doing. I wonder my friend if you'd care to share WHY YOU left the RCC? May God guide our paths, Thanks again, Patrick
  13. Musings in regard to Hell

    You've defined a soul [I'm being generous here] but you didn't provide support for it. What in the world does "immaterial essence" mean? End quotes Permit me to answer with a question: Quantify for me your “freewill:” What is its size, shape, color and weight? Hint it comes with your “mind” {not speaking here of your brain} & “intellect” {not meaning your “I.Q.”} …They too are part of the human Soul which is Rational, and that which animates LIFE. ….Si WHERE do they come from and WHY? On 5/10/2018 at 7:22 PM, Patrick Miron said: The reason Hell exist; is because Heaven also exist. Reward and punishment {Life and Death}, and we choose which it will be. There are Christians that don't believe in hell the way you do, they believe the "soul" is destroyed. I also don't see the necessity for hell to exist merely because heaven does. End quote Actions have consequences: Good for good; Evil for evil.
  14. PAPAL INFALLIBILITY

    Once again I will number your points and hopefully, respond with evidence of each. BUT first I will attempt to answer the final question, born of ignorance and extreme- prejudice. CODE OF CANON LAW {1983} BOOK III. THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI Can. 747 §1. The Church, to which Christ the Lord has entrusted the deposit of faith so that with the assistance of the Holy Spirit it might protect the revealed truth reverently, examine it more closely, and proclaim and expound it faithfully, has the duty and innate right, independent of any human power whatsoever, to preach the gospel to all peoples, also using the means of social communication proper to it. §2. It belongs to the Church always and everywhere to announce moral principles, even about the social order, and To render judgment concerning any human affairs insofar as the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls requires it. Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know. §2. No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience. Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held. §2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively. §3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident. Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them. §2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal ofsubmission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it. Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops. Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth. Can. 755 §1. It is above all for the entire college of bishops and the Apostolic See to foster and direct among Catholics the ecumenical movement whose purpose is the restoration among all Christians of the unity which the Church is bound to promote by the will of Christ. §2. It is likewise for the bishops and, according to the norm of law, the conferences of bishops to promote this same unity and to impart practical norms according to the various needs and opportunities of the circumstances; they are to be attentive to the prescripts issued by the supreme authority of the Church. END QUOTES SUMMARY OF ABOVE: Canon #749 Infallible pronouncements MUST: 1 Be on Faith and or Morals ONLY 2 Be declared to be an Infallible Pronouncement 3. Has to be done and identified from the “Chair of Peter” 4 Is Proclaimed to be “a definitive pronouncement” on this PRECISE issue of Faith or Morals. END Hence numbers, 1a, definition is incorrect & 1b,3,4,6,&7 simply DO NOT qualify by definition as a “Infallible Pronouncement” Answer: The apostles never regarded any man to be infallible. Only the Word of God is regarded as without error. Ahhhh, not exactly true: 1 Like the words bible and purgatory are not found in the Bible; Infallibility was a recognized thing; just not articulated in this precise manner. The example of Paul correcting Peter is correct; BUT not relevant to this issue; this was a Church Practice NOT a Dogmatic Issue. Practices ARE changeable; Dogmas are not in their core teachings. As to the recognized PRIMACY of Peter 7 ROME: The Early Church Fathers on The Primacy of Peter/Rome The Early Church Fathers understood from the beginning that Peter and his successors held a place of primacy in the Church. Clement of Rome Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]). Ignatius of Antioch You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]). Irenaeus “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190 Irenaeus But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]). Clement of Alexandria [T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]). Tertullian [T]he Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loose and, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]). Letter of Clement to James Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]). Cyprian The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church" . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. [A.D. 251]). END QUOTES [1a] If Peter was pope, which the Bible says he was not, then he made mistakes as in Galatians 2:11-14 when he was deceived by Judaizers. "But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT EXPRESSED THAT PETER WAS “NOT” I can provide a list of 50 Peter Bible FIRST if you’d care to see it? This example deals with a Church PRACTICE, NOT a matter of faith or Morals DOCTRINE. Popes Innocent III, Gregory XI, Clement IV, Hadrian VI, and Paul IV all disagreed with papal infallibility. Paul IV {1555-1559} was the last Pope mentioned; these disputes were what brought to “a head” the need for the Church to declare for the first time a Dogmatic Proclamation to end confusion; NOT existent in the EARLY church; but became a political issue as the Church grew. So Vatican One made it an Infallible Dogma of the RCC for the 1st time. PRIOR to this, it was various Popes just sharing their PERSONAL OPINIONS; not speaking Infallibily. “In addition a large number of subjects for discussion had been sent by the bishops of various countries. Thus, for instance, the bishops of the church provinces of Quebec and Halifax demanded the lessening of the impediments to marriage, revision of the Breviary, and, above all, the reform and codification of the entire canon law. The petition of Archbishop Spalding of Baltimore treated, among other things, the relations between Church and State religious indifference, secret societies, and the infallibility of the pope. The definition of this last was demanded by various bishops. Others desired a revision of the index of forbidden books. No less than nine petitions bearing nearly two hundred signatures demanded the definition of the bodily Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. Over three hundred fathers of the council requested the elevation of St. Joseph as patron saint of the Universal Church.” …… …… “ On account of the violent disputes which had been carried on everywhere for the past year over the question of papal infallibility the overwhelming majority considered the conciliar discussion and decision of the question to be imperatively necessary. On the other hand the minority, comprising about one-fifth of the total number, feared the worst from the definition, the apostasy of many wavering Catholics, an increased estrangement of those separated from the Church, and interference with the affairs of the Church by the Governments of the different countries. The minority, therefore, allowed itself to be guided by opportunist considerations. Only a few bishops appear to have had doubts as to the dogma itself. END QUOTED ….. ….. “On account of the war which threatened to break out between Germany and France, a number of fathers of both opinions had returned home. Shortly before the fourth public session a large number of the bishops of the minority left Rome with the permission of the directing officers of the council. They did not oppose the dogma of papal infallibility itself, but were against its definition as inopportune. On Monday, 18 July, 1870, one day before the outbreak of the Franco-German War, 435 fathers of the council assembled at St. Peter's under the presidency of Pope Pius IX. The last vote was now taken; 433 fathers voted placet, and only two, Bishop Aloisio Riccio of Cajazzo, Italy, and Bishop Edward Fitzgerald of Little Rock, Arkansas, voted non placet. During the proceedings a thunderstorm broke over the Vatican, and amid thunder and lightning the pope promulgated the new dogma, like a Moses promulgating the law on Mount Sinai. … END QUOTED IT WAS NOT A DFINED DOGMA UNTIL VATICAN 1; July 18, 1870 5. Pope Eugene IV (1431) had Joan of Arc burned alive as a witch, but later Pope Benedict IV in 1919 declared her to be a saint. This was NOT ever a dogmatic issue; It was a localized Moral issue at that time and place. …. The latter pronouncement, some 500 years later was a more informed; more humanizing From the Catholic encyclopedia: THIS WAS FGAR MORE A POLITICAL ISSUE AT THAT TIME AND PLACE THAN A RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION; HENCE A FAR LATER {500 YEARS LATER} A MORE OBJECTION CONCLUSION WAS REACHED. “No words can adequately describe the disgraceful ingratitude and apathy of Charles and his advisers in leaving the Maid to her fate. If military force had not availed, they had prisoners like the Earl of Suffolk in their hands, for whom she could have been exchanged. Joan was sold by John of Luxembourg to the English for a sum which would amount to several hundred thousand dollars in modern money. There can be no doubt that the English, partly because they feared their prisoner with a superstitious terror, partly because they were ashamed of the dread which she inspired, were determined at all costs to take her life. They could not put her to death for having beaten them, but they could get her sentenced as a witchand a heretic. Moreover, they had a tool ready to their hand in Pierre Cauchon, the Bishop of Beauvais, an unscrupulous and ambitious man who was the creature of the Burgundian party. A pretext for invoking his authority was found in the fact that Compiègne, where Joan was captured, lay in the Diocese of Beauvais. Still, as Beauvais was in the hands of the French, the trial took place at Rouen — the latter see being at that time vacant. This raised many points of technical legality which were summarily settled by the parties interested. The Vicar of the Inquisition at first, upon some scruple of jurisdiction, refused to attend, but this difficulty was overcome before the trial ended. Throughout the trial Cauchon's assessors consisted almost entirely of Frenchmen, for the most part theologians and doctors of the University of Paris. Preliminary meetings of the court took place in January, but it was only on 21 February, 1431, that Joan appeared for the first time before her judges. She was not allowed an advocate, and, though accused in an ecclesiastical court, she was throughout illegally confined in the Castle of Rouen, a secular prison, where she was guarded by dissolute English soldiers. Joan bitterly complained of this. She asked to be in the church prison, where she would have had female attendants. It was undoubtedly for the better protection of her modesty under such conditions that she persisted in retaining her male attire. Before she had been handed over to the English, she had attempted to escape by desperately throwing herself from the window of the tower of Beaurevoir, an act of seeming presumption for which she was much browbeaten by her judges. This also served as a pretext for the harshness shown regarding her confinement at Rouen, where she was at first kept in an iron cage, chained by the neck, hands, and feet. On the other hand she was allowed no spiritual privileges — e.g. attendance at Mass — on account of the charge of heresy and the monstrous dress (difformitate habitus) she was wearing.” END QUOTES END OF MY COMMENTS Regards, Patrick
  15. Why I could personally never chose to be Catholic

    My new friend, I am TRULY grateful for your POST. 1st a Question: WHY would {or should} I use the King James Bible “ONLY” when it authors were rewriting it and used the Catholic Douay Bible to do so? 1st of all, comparing spiritual things with spiritual, I feel that as old as the Roman Catholic Church is; it still has not worked out it's kinks. - 1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV Bible) [13] Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. The RCC is pragmatic and ORGANIC {alive and always growing}. Your comment is too vague to really comment on it. While not surprised {I’ve been sharing my faith for about 30 years} I am amazed that with your knowledge of the bible that your understanding of it is so incomplete.. There is no possible way to compare spiritual “things” of the RCC. We Do have Jesus Christ in Person in every RCC. Nothing {though there is still much good possible} can compare with this reality. {Mt 26: 26-28; Mk. 14:22-24; Lk. 22: 17-20; John 6: 47-58 & 66-70; Paul 1st. COR 11:23-30} Catholic Holy Communion is: FROM God the Father OF God the Son BY God the Holy Spirit I feel like if I'm going to partake congregationally to worship, it is a absolute must that i am 100% comfortable with the Church and its Doctrines, all elements combined. - Galatians 1:6-7 (of Galatians 1:1-12) (KJV Bible) [6] I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. [7] Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ A Beautiful thought; thanks for sharing it. My new friend; but this only proves my point shared above, you seemingly know the bible without really understanding it. In all Catholic Churches one is truly {literally} in the Presence of Jesus Christ reserved in the Tabernacle {Ark} … One ought to be filled with AWE and Wonder; not so much “comfort”; though many Catholics have come to take this reality as an unrecognized Gift. 1 The Bible is a Catholic book: It was early Catholic Fathers; guided by the Holy Spirit {2 Tim. 3:16-17} and it was men known today to be Catholics who AUTHORED the entire New Testament. Six of whom are Catholic Apostles. This is historically Provable. 2 Todays RCC predates Calvin and his TULIP by about 1,500 years when the RCC was up until the Great Easter Schism of 1054 AD; the ONLY “Christians” on planet earth. This too is historically provable. 3 This means that logically; historically and even Biblically {Mt 10:1-8; Mt 16:15-19; John 17:17-20; Eph. 2: 19-22; Eph. 4: 1-6 and Mt 28:18-20}, which my new FRIEND, I suspect you’ll be able to grasp it true meaning given your Baptist training. But these few passages {the SHORT course} evidence that today’s RCC is the One True Faith, and Church and faith desired and established by Jesus. Here are the questions that logically need to be asked: Can I accept that there cannot {its impossible} that there be your truth and my truth; as then there would be NO TRUTH {Benedict XVI} Do I know and recognize that the RCC predates the Baptist Church by about 1,500 YEARS? And that the RCC is the One Church and Religion desired, established by Christ personally; and is basically the SAME One Faith 2,000 years ago as it is today. And that For at least the 1st. Thousand years after Christ; today’s RCC was THE ONLY “Christian Faith” on planet earth. … ALL Protestants churches and faiths {EVERY CHURCH IS SELF-IDENTIFIED BY ITS OWN FAITH} are manmade versions of the RCC from which they were grounded in. Hence ALL of them actually are in competition not only with each other; BUT literally with Jesus Himself. Eph. 4: 1-6 “1] I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] One body {means One Church} and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, {means only one true set of faith beliefs exist} one baptism. [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.” So my new friend, if today’s RCC somehow lost its PROMISED protection; then which other “church” is Christ One True Church and based on WHAT evidence? {Mt 16:15-19; John 17: 17-20; Mt 28:19-20} It is well known most Baptist have issues with Catholicism because of the Catholic claim of: transubstantiation. Within the ritual of a catholic mass, the pope holds a piece of bread, turns his back, and while his back is turned. Proclaims that it "literally" turns into the physical flesh of Christ. Thank you; I within the past week just replied in DEPTH to this issue; on this same FORUM. Please take the time to read it as the evidence of our TRUTH is very evident & compelling. Then ALSO GOOGLE Eucharistic Miracles. 3rdly, Christ is the head of the Church, There is absolutely no need for a Pope. It is opposite of scriptural and from what Iv heard, Pagan derived. - 1 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV Bible) [3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. END QUOTE REPLY: Eph. 2: 19- 22“[19] So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, {singular; identified by its FAITH] [20] built upon the foundation of the[Catholic] apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [22] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” GOD always choose just one MAN to lead His Chosen People {Exo. 6:7; Mt 16:18} Noah, Abram, Moses, Jacob, the Judges, the Kings like David and Solomon, and the Prophets like Isaiah, and Zephaniah who lead to John the Baptist who led to Jesus, who choose 12 MEN with Peter as the HEAD {Mt 16:15-19; John 21: 13-17} John 21: [13] And Jesus cometh and taketh bread, and giveth THEM and fish in like manner. [14] This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to his disciples, after he was risen from the dead.[15] When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep” I can provide a list of 50 Peter First if you’d caré to see it? God Bless you, I have large hopes that you find a profitable King James Version Only proud and preaching Church near you & find the Bible way to Heaven. My new friend; I was deeply touched by your sincerity and charity. THANK YOU! And Easter Blessings on this Ascension Sunday: “GLORY & Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ; King of everlasting Glory.” Patrick
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