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WordSword

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About WordSword

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    netchaplain@sbcglobal.net

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    Bible study and sharing beliefs with other Christians; Chess, boating, fishing and camping.

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  1. I believe all who have posted replies in this thread are proper in the manner of seeking truth, and I believe (suspecting the same for most) it's through God using one another in the Body. As it's been mentioned, God gives some understanding more than others, and it's my belief He does this in accordance to how much we give ourselves to learning to love others as Christ loved, because it's always all about God's love in the believer and to others, esp. other believers! Concerning the issue whether or not Christians will be in the tribulation, what we understand and believe concerning our thoughts on the Book of Revelation, it's mainly for the blessing of encouragement, and has no effect of one's eternal salvation. We will learn what God will be showing us independently, according to our maturity level in Christ and the Word. I believe it's mostly what we do with the Pauline Epistles, because God has used Paul the most for our spiritual growth in the Lord Jesus, through His love in us for one another.
  2. Hi, and thanks for your applicable reply! Your point is clear considering this and numerous passages like it in Revelation, but this book is the most difficult to make certain conclusive determinations, and when one refers to Bible commentators it will be noticed that much of the book has varying conclusions to many who scholastically over many years have studied it. It's also common knowledge among the commentators that much of the material presented in this Book cannot (more than all the other Books except Daniel) base most conclusions on what is read, but must coalesce Revelation and Daniel to parallel all of Scripture. If my reply sounds like I'm dodging your reply it's only because Revelation is often misinterpreted due to taking the readings as they are seen (at face value) without any true sense of learning apart from the community of Bible commentators, who know and understand the Word more than most, because God has used most of them to research, and learn its languages, customs and traditions more than most who merely just read it and study it on their own or in a Church setting. Even in this scholastic setting of commentators there is often differences of opinions, which IMO can lead to more misinterpretations by unlearned Bible readers. It's commonly known and respected that Christians can have varying opinions of what they believe the Word is saying to them, so one can believe one way concerning a Biblical issue, while another can believe differently, which is expected because believers very in their understandings and this is accepted.
  3. One disadvantage in studying Scripture is the unknowingly over-paralleling the dispensations of God’s administrations concerning God’s people, Israel and God’s children, the Christians. Though much teaching within the prior Covenant typified and “shadowed” the coming “very image” (Heb 10:1), there is a point at which proper understanding between the prior and the present Everlasting Covenant (Heb 13:20) can breach into misunderstanding concerning the designed intentions contained within the truths of each! Among the many Biblical subjects that seem to be a bit unclear for immediate understanding, the issue concerning the translation or “change” of the Church (1Co 15:51, 52; 1Th 4:13-18) is surly not least among them. Of this subject, only the chronology of its occurrence concerning “that day and hour” is unrevealed (Mat 24:36). Though for the learned and discerning, there appears to be the possibility of approximating its season (Mat 24:32, 33). But knowing when of its transpiration is secondary to knowing of its “blessing,” which is towards “he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it” (Rev 1:3). While an unbeliever can only await the grave, believers can await the rapture, or translation! Whichever of the two believers choose to await can significantly determine the quality of their walk. Be it dread or joy, one thing is for certain, the majority of the world can only await the prior; and for those of this company whose lives will tarry, there first “shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Mat 24:21). NC Church sans Tribulation (Reposted and reedited from 2013 for new viewers) Not only is the Church a product of this specific age with no relation whatever to any other age, but each believer is perfectly accepted now and forever before God on the ground of his position in Christ, and, being saved out of this world, he is no more of this world than Christ is of this world (Jhn 15:18, 19; 17:14, 16). The coming tribulation (not even remotely related to Acts 14:22, noting the words “coming tribulation”—NC) is the judgement of this world. Israel has her part in it since, being not yet saved (Rom 11:26), she is of the world. The believer, being what he is in Christ, has no more a rightful place in this world’s judgements than Christ Himself or any unfallen angel. Back of the theories that the Church (Body of Christ) will enter or pass through the tribulation is the Arminian heresy that the believer contributes something to his own acceptance before God, and, having failed to some extent is this responsibility, he will be purged by the suffering which the tribulation affords. There is a line of truth which concerns the believer’s personal faithfulness; but this is consummated before Christ at His judgment seat in heaven. As for any condemnation, or other judgment, the Christian is wholly delivered forever on the most righteous ground that a Substitute bore the condemnation and judgment and has provided a perfect standing before God. It is established by Scripture that the believer is delivered from all condemning judgments (John 3:18; 5:24; Rom 5:1; 8:1, 33, 34; 1 Cor 11:31, 32). In general, those who contend that the Church will experience the tribulation assert that all believers—spiritual and unspiritual (carnal babes-in-Christ - 1Co 3:1, unlearned but not “carnally minded” because that is “death” Rom 8:6—NC) will enter that period of suffering, though there are those believing in a partial rapture who assert that the Church will be divided and the spiritual element, which always includes those who advance this notion, will go directly to heaven, while the unspiritual will suffer for their sins in the tribulation. This constitutes a Protestant purgatory. The answer to all such conceptions is the recognition of the truth that, when members of this sinful race go to heaven, it is not on the ground of their own merit, but only through the merit of Christ. It is to be remembered that each believer is already perfectly justified forever (Rom 5:1; 8:30, 33, 34; Heb 10:14), and this wholly within the range of divine justice (Rom 3:26). Thus the contention that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation becomes and insult to, and unbelief towards (though ignorantly—NC) the measureless grace of God in His Beloved Son. Those who entertain the idea that the Church experiences the great tribulation must reckon with the fact that of upwards of seventy-five generations (2,250 years, given a generation is about 30 years—NC) who comprise that company, all but the present generation have entered Glory without the supposed benefits of that purging experience. Why, then, should the last generation suffer that from which the vast host have been spared? On this point a specious argument has been advanced, namely, that as the Church has suffered martyrdom in certain periods of her history she may be expected to suffer thus again at the end of her age; but back of this claim is the failure to recognize that past sufferings were due to the attack of wicked men upon the Church, while the great tribulation is God’s judgment upon wicked men. Wholly justified believers have no place among evil men who are destined to eternal doom. - L S Chafer (1871-1952)
  4. Sanctification Many believers of late are of the notion that “sanctification” is a process involving the completion of one’s salvation, and that one cannot know for certain when, or even if one is or will be saved until this sanctification process is complete! Be encouraged, dearly beloved in Christ to know that at the moment one is brought to faith in Christ, all within is complete and entire concerning “all things that pertain to life and godliness” (2Pe 1:3), which most importantly includes—redemption within salvation! As one cannot grow into “being holy” (either one is are isn’t), so also one does not grow into being sanctified, nor is it ever descriptively used in Scripture to denote a process. It’s not as though one can do anything to be sanctified (which comes only by the Spirit at rebirth - 1Co 6:11; 2Th 2:13; 1Pe 1:2), it must be imputed, which is the same for all the attributes of God (except salvation, which is imparted and not imputed). Any concept that tends to attribute works towards producing or retaining redemption (usually inadvertently) detracts from attributing glory to God. Works are the fruit of godliness, and not the source of godliness, which is solely of God; and the most prevalent trademark of doctrinal-error within Christianity is works-attribution towards the apprehension and retention of godliness, which detracts testimony from unlearned believers. I believe that the sole provision in spiritual growth of one’s faith of Christianity (faith is the only godly attribute which grows, and in strength of quality not quantity, as all else is complete) lies within that which concerns its completeness and permanency (because they are the derivatives of all growth truths); and one’s testimony of love to others and the endurance of trials will be manifested in accordance to the level of the understanding and application of these two Biblical truths. With the most important growth truths comes also the most difficulties (of course) concerning their understanding and application, which answers to why there is not only a waning in many Christians spiritual growth, but also in the number of many long time Church attendees (within the last couple generations). NC
  5. Please know this isn't to debate your comment but discuss its meaning (Rom 11:29). The verse concerns all the gifts of God (esp. redemption or salvation), but verse 29 is particularly Israel's Covenant (vs 26, 27), and the Christian's Covenant is also in the subject (vs 28, 30).
  6. To avoid the appearance of merely arguing, we need to supply some type of what we feel is support (preferably Scripture) with our comments and opinions, otherwise we're just debating and discussing what we believe but not why. Thanks. I also wanted you to know I like the manner of sincerity you show. I'm also not liking much that in the thread it looks like a lot of others are coming against you (hope you don't see it that way, which you may not), but that's not what is happening. I think it's from a good working concern you truly have for how we communicate the Word, and thanks for it.
  7. True, it's always a matter of one's understanding and opinion, such as that I see the Reformation supporting the concept: https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/reformation-study-bible/Rom.11.29
  8. Apostasy is descriptive of one who shows a false profession by discontinuing the profession and never returning again to it. The phrase "falling away" has been much misinterpreted. Many entertain the thought that it intends the meaning of falling from salvation, but verse 26 is not in reference to salvation itself but to the Gospel of salvation (knowledge of the truth), e.g. “received (learned, but not accepted) the knowledge of the truth.” Thus, if we continue to live after sin, even after having the knowledge of the truth, etc. Only the knowledge was received, but not the truth. I think Henry's comment here designs the same intention: "The exhortations against apostasy and to perseverance, are urged by many strong reasons. The sin here mentioned is a total and final falling away, when men, with a full and fixed will and resolution, despise and reject Christ, the only Savior; despise and resist the Spirit, the only Sanctifier; and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life." (just my opinion - blessings!) 26-31: https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mhn/hebrews-10.html
  9. I would need specific verses, so we can share our opinions with one another (only in love, as I'm sure you agree) and we don't need to pursue this in this way if you prefer. Thanks.
  10. I was going to send you Henry's commentary concerning the "irrevocable gifts of God" (Rom 11:29) but it is intimidatingly supportive of OSAS, so I chose not to send it, but verses 22-32 can be viewed here: https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mhn/romans-11.html
  11. Give a check on Romans 11:29 with some Bible commentaries, and not suggesting this out of opposition but just for the purpose of seeking truth.
  12. In my 40 years of growth in the faith I've only started noticing only a couples churches out of about 20 I fellowshipped just within the last 15 that were uncertain about the doctrine. Even in all those years before the last 15, nearly all Christian radio programs and churches accepted OSAS, so to me nonacceptance of the doctrine is only recent in a general sense. I have yet to see any Bible commentators (out of about a dozen I have used) that do not support the doctrine. The strongest commentator supporters are those circa late 1800's and prior.
  13. Again, good points, because to unbelievers, those professing faith and arguing can appear false. But that's typical of unbelievers, to ever attempt to make believers appear hypocritical of our faith, because they are intimidated and threatened to see the truth genuinely practiced. I think an important note is that it's mostly when we are in disagreements because of our different understandings gives more opportunity to learn to disagree in a loving way, so they cannot avoid seeing us as Christ's disciples as we continue to learn and grow in the love of God for one another (Jhn 13:35).
  14. I don't see a problem with this, or with anyone desiring to limit its discussion, but the doctrine is so prevalent is scripture's growth teachings that it's difficult to avoid sharing what and when you desire about it. Myself, I also see no problem keeping it out in the open, it gives more opportunity for truth revealing concerning it the more it is discussed (just my opinion). Appreciate your genuine concern and intentions, God bless.
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