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JoeChan82

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Everything posted by JoeChan82

  1. I have read and reread all of these posts and I am still not sure what some of you are saying. I may be opening up a floodgate, but let me state my position on the rapture as briefly as I can, then you guys can point out where you agree or disagree. I remain premillennial and believe in a literal, future, 1,000 year reign of Christ. There is indeed a future seven year period of time, which I call Daniel's seventieth week. It should not be called "The Seven Years of Tribulation", because there is both tribulation against the church and the wrath of God upon the enemies of God during this period. The wrath of God begins at the 7th trumpet, even though God's enemies call for the mountains to hide them in Rev 6, and is explained in detail during the 7 vial judgments. The church is gathered for the resurrection immediately prior to the Wrath of God and after the signs delineated in Matt 24. I will not defame the motivations of the pre-tribulationists. They base their views on certain tenants of dispensationsalism. (To wit: The church age is a parenthetical, therefore the church must be gone before God can return to dealing with national Israel, and hence the imminent return of Christ.) I consider them to be my brothers in Christ with whom I disagree on eschatology.
  2. I think that the church began with Jesus and His disciples. That seems to fit the definition of a called out assembly with Jesus Christ as the head. I have seen posts in other threads where it is stated that the church began on the day of Pentecost. I think that the church existed before Pentecost and was empowered by the Holy Spirit and members added. Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. I am not dogmatic about my position on this and really want to hear from others. There must be some ramifications to which position one holds, but I don't know what they are. I wrote a Statement of Faith once in view of a call and was corrected on this and the man correcting me was very insistent. I don't understand why this is so important, but I want to know.
  3. Proverbs 28:23 ¶ He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue. Although confronting someone that you care about is painful and can bring with it some immediate unpleasant results, I look to the Proverb above. Another secular way of stating this is, "An enemy stabs you in the back, but a friend stabs you in the front". Some of the best advice I have ever received made me angry at first. Then afterwards I realized that my friend had been right. The Holy Spirit made me face my shortcomings and when I finally did that, I went back and thanked my friend. Hope this helps somebody.
  4. Maybe I don't understand this part of your statement, but I was a pre-tribulationist for a long time. The second rate believer thing is a small splinter of that group. We called them the "Split rapture" people. I used to believe that the whole church would be raptured out before the "7 year tribulation" period. That is the standard pre-trib position. Did I misunderstand you here? Thanks.
  5. For some, it is a question of loyalties. When I have tried to show my friends that the neither the imminent return nor the pre-tribulation rapture has any Bible proof, their standard reply is either, "Believe me, you are wrong", or "Do you mean to tell me that (Pick your famous preacher) is wrong and you are right"? I know their position better than they do. I have read a long list of Dispensationalists on this specific topic. In point of fact, I used to believe all of that until the scriptures convinced me otherwise. For others, it is the fact that we are not able to state our view, or actually question their view without being vilified and shunned. I have seen missionaries' support dropped, preachers banned, and others condescended to. The only defense they have is tired old quips like, "Do you honestly believe that God would beat up his bride?" or "No rapture? Hey, that's no 'blessed hope'!" or "Read your Bible, son". BUT, because I wanted to be very sure of my position and my first loyalty is the Scriptures, until they can refute scripture with scripture, I will remained unmoved.
  6. Very clever indeed. So do I ignore the verses I quoted, reinterpret the verses, spiritualize the verses, or make an analogy of the verses?
  7. Here comes the bride - Revelation 21:9-10 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
  8. Not be argumentative here, but just a point of order. 1Cor 15:52 doesn't state who blows the trumpet. That must be inferred from 1Thes 4:16. 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
  9. I agree with your answer here. I was reacting to those who say that if we aren't raptured out before the tribulation starts, then we have no blessed hope. Without rehashing everything, I have come to believe that the "seven years of tribulation" is a misleading definition of Daniel's 70th week. I don't think that the traditional division of this week into 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation is right. I divide it into tribulation, great tribulation, and the wrath of God. I know the whole thing does last for 7 years, but I divide it by the events described during the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. So I think we are gathered out before God's wrath falls, but not until after the tribulation of those days. It is fine with me if you don't see it that way. Almost all of my friends disagree with me on this subject. Thank you for your reply!
  10. Are you asking who the Lord is here or who the Lord was rebuking? If you are asking who the Lord is, I agree with Yowm, no question about it. If you are asking who the Lord was rebuking, the answer is the devil. Michael was contending with the devil. Instead of directly rebuking the devil, Michael said to the devil, "The Lord rebuke thee".
  11. The story is told of an American Ambassador who went to England in the 1800's. His British escort took him to hear the great preachers in England. Later the escort asked the ambassador his opinion of some of the preaching he had heard, to which he replied, "What a great preacher". The escort then asked his opinion of C. H. Spurgeon, to which her replied, "What a great Savior!"
  12. Here is what Job did. Job 42:10 ¶ And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. Try that! I think it is the perfect answer to your question.
  13. I am originally from the Boston area too. No reason to murder the king's English!
  14. Let me tell you something I did recently. I subscribed to Pure Flix. This is a video streaming service that has only family and Christian content. Now I watch it as much as anything. There is no profanity, no raunchy jokes, no nudity and some of it is evangelistic! You don't have to mute or pause the show if the grandchildren come over, because it is good, clean stuff. The horror movies that I have seen have witches, spirits, Satan. Hang all that. Replace it with some wholesome shows. Hope that helps.
  15. This is meant to be humorous: Notice that the 2 main Fox News haters list their locations as "Far side of the moon" and "a galaxy far, far away"
  16. Acts 17:24-28 …. 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Titus 1:10-12 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. Hello Abdicate, Paul also quoted extrabiblical sources to prove a point, but that is not an argument for including the works of Greek poets and vain, unruly prophets into the cannon of scripture. If we take the cannon of scripture off the table, then we might as well go contend for something else, because we have no final authority. But since this is a thread on Tongues, I do not want to derail the main discussion. Do we have a thread on the authority of the scriptures somewhere else on this site? Thank you.
  17. Acts 2:5-6 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Allow me to say here specifically concerning tongues that if we apply the verses above to the Charismatic movements' version of tongues, all of it is eliminated. I have never witnessed nor heard of the orderly or practical use of tongues. What I have seen and heard is a spontaneous ejaculation of nonsense phrases repeated and repeated. The word tongues is exactly equal to the word languages. And before I am accused of not believing hard enough, let me reply that it isn't a question of faith, but the object of said faith. I do not doubt the faith of those with whom I disagree. I am sincere and I assume that you are equally sincere. Your opinion does not offend me and I hope I have not been too aggressive with my own opinion. Thank you in advance for your patience.
  18. I have followed dispensationalism as explained in the original post from 1978 (When I was saved) until sometime in 2,000, when I came to reject the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. (I hold to the pre-wrath position, but I do not profess to be an expert.) Now I still consider myself to be a dispensationalist in that I interpret the scriptures literally when the literal sense makes common sense, I recognize 7 dispensations, and I am still pre-millennial. It has caused me no small amount of internal struggle to be out of step with practically everybody I have ever gone to church with for 40 years. I remember reading C. H. Spurgeon once when he quoted 2 Peter 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Spurgeon then said, "My theology cannot explain this verse, therefore I bow to the Holy Spirit". In like fashion, I have determined to attach full authority to the Word of God and give secondary allegiance to my theology. Everybody says they do that, but usually nothing interrupts their loyalty to their theology.
  19. Yes, that does make sense to me and it is logical. Christ fulfilling the convocations and their respective associated feasts is something I have believed for a while now. I think that you breaking down the fall feasts in this thread was very helpful. Well said!
  20. Okay. So we have a guy that thinks Jesus is here, when Acts 1 says he ascended. Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then we have a guy who thinks Jesus is going to need some time to get His 1,000 year reign in order when Revelation says He'll rule with a rod of iron. Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. We also have a guy who insists over and over that Matthew 24 is not for the church and conjures an 8th trumpet based solely on that same assertion along with accusations of falsehood to any that dare ask why. Then we fight over who is alive during the 1,000 year reign. Is it spirit bodies, flesh and bone or flesh and blood, and don't forget the folks who survive the 7 years. But we also had some very clear explanations from some people who did their best to prove their positions. I say bravo to those who gave their reasons! Just for the record, I still think the last trump is the seventh trumpet, but the best of you gave me a lot to think about. Thank you.
  21. Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. The disciples are not national Israel. And even if you say they are, in Mark Jesus said "I say unto all".
  22. Thank you, Larry 2. In the interest of full disclosure, I agree with the reply from Daniel 11:36, but I did come to join this forum to be exposed to views different from my own. I worked in the federal prison system for 20 years. The inmates knew that I was a Christian and would bring me literature from all sorts of places. I have read premillennial, postmillennial, amillennial, futurist, preterist, and historicist. So feel free to tell me more. I will read it and digest it and give you feedback if you want it. Thanks again.
  23. I believe that the seven churches were seven literal churches, which existed in the day of John's writing. It also seems perfectly reasonable that we can learn from their example and the message delivered to them. Do the seven churches represent seven church ages? Maybe. Maybe not. That is just a theory, so I cannot be dogmatic.
  24. I have never heard any of that before. Is there a book on that somewhere?
  25. This is new to me. I have never heard of another week of Daniel.
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