JoeChan82

Ok. Love the name you chose, by the way.

Appreciate that.

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

This may seem off topic...

When did we get to truth consisting of, "I think....", or "I believe..." instead of, "The Lord says...", "As it is written...", or "The scriptures say..."?

I don't see where it's ok just to believe anything and it's truth.

 

Or, you may exactly on topic. Just saying.

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The key to knowing the truth is to know that ONLY PAUL received revelation of the rapture of the church.  People have been trying for centuries to find Paul's rapture elsewhere in scripture, but it is not in the Olivet Discourse.  It is not to be found in the gospels. It is myth to assume Paul's rapture is mentioned in other places.

You have confirmed what I have guessed before: it is going to be impossible to be expecting Christ when you believe you will see the beast first. Good luck with that!

Hey, I found it!

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

5 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

God ask us to reason with Him 

Isa 1:18

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
KJV

so God is a God of reason... we just fail to keep up if you would  

I cannot argue with that, nor do I want to. If there are limits in our reasoning, they are our limits. Keep up the good work.

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:06 PM, enoob57 said:

I can say this there is an eternity past where there was not sin and an eternity future where there is no sin and the period of sin is removed from those eternities... and we being eternal children with God have no need to give any thought past this ….

 

Let me take a second bite at the apple. Here is the Bible as understood by pure logic: Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore Mary is the mother of God. That is logical, but not true. Example two: God can do anything. God is good. Why does God not stop evil? That is also logical, but incorrect.  My only point is that the Bible cannot be understood by logic alone. I was not attempting to discredit your OP. In fact, I am in agreement with the OP. Did that clear up my intentions for you any?

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The logic is extremely so... all sin is born from lie. As God has explained Himself to us He fills eternity with His Will and in that is way, truth and life... no matter the distinction of being- truth is all there is and is seen in the subjective nature of lie: a lie is totally dependent upon truth which must exist prior to any lie. The very nature of existence of lie- truth must be in place for it to even begin... yet truth 'IS' reliant only upon itself as God's sole possession in expression of Himself without end! The very nature of free will is in God without limits, without any form of restriction, in fact the ideal of restriction was born out of lie in that truth could be bound with a beginning and it is here that lucifer began his work to proclaim himself to be god...
I know that God has explained this to me by His Word

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
KJV

In this truth I must enter the vehicle of faith without bringing anything of my first begin with me for I am not yet but I am in Him... and it is in this depth that I find God presence in me for I accept the truth born out of His Word by The Presence of The Holy Spirit within me fulfilling this verse

1 John 4:13-19

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.
KJV

and again

1 Cor 2:10-13

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
KJV

because this logic precedes sin and proceeds the same in the eternal state we have been given the truth without end as possession now and it is the power of God unto salvation Through Christ alone! Having this truth formed within us we see clearly what Jesus was teaching us by the power of The Holy Spirit

John 8:32-36

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
KJV

This is such a solid witness to my heart that I know I shall not return to the vomit of my first begin and birth because there remain no further attraction (in s/Spirit) for me... 

That was deep! Your scripture references were spot on. I especially liked what you said about truth being in place first, before a lie can exist. What a thought!

This really boils down to the sovereignty of God vs the free will of man, doesn't it? Is God completely sovereign? Yes. Does man have a free will? Yes. Both of these are equally true. Did God create sin? No. Sounds illogical, doesn't it? That's because it is illogical. The truths of the Bible are spiritually discerned. We believe it, because our Bibles say it. We are foolish to the Greeks.

1Co 1:22-24  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 1:26-29  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Our founders were aware of the dangers of the state and church marriage. It goes without saying that when Jesus does it, it will be done to perfection. Whether the protestants or the catholics held power, the results were the same; namely persecution of the nonconformists. It is ironic that the Puritans, who themselves fled before persecution, set up the same system and became persecutors. The argument in favor of establishing a state church is to prevent cults. For some reason, it never does that. Enforcing church doctrine by the sword of government leads inevitably to tyranny. When you missed church in Massachusetts during the 1600's it wasn't the minister that visited your door, it was the sheriff. To conclude that the U.S. Constitution was somehow anti religion is to ignore our own history. Ben Franklin praised Christianity as the only means to morality and encouraged it. The hue and cry of the ungodly is, "Separation of church and state". Nope. Religion was to flourish without interference from the state.  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.  

I am looking for a review on my position on Matthew 16:13-23. I am dealing with a guy who thinks that Peter is the rock upon which the church is built. I think it is Peter's confession. (The guy claims not to be Catholic.) Please review this and point out any flaws in my arguments or logic or exegesis. Many thanks.

Matt 16:13-23 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

First look at the context of this conversation. In verse 13, “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” That is the question put to the disciples. Then verse 15 says, “But whom say ye that I am?” Same conversation and the same context are in view, namely who is Jesus Christ. Peter answers, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Good answer. The correct answer. Jesus Himself confirms this. We're all good so far.

Verses 17-19 are where debate is. When Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build this church” what is He talking about? Does this mean that Peter is the rock as some insist? The context would seem to dictate that it the confession itself. Look at verse 20. Jesus is staying with His original topic, namely His identity. Then look at verse 23. Jesus said unto Peter, “ Get thee behind me, Satan”. So is Peter the rock or is he Satan. Neither. What changed in Peter? His confession changed. Christ builds His church on Peter's first confession, but when Peter is appalled by the cross and says, “Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.”, Jesus rebukes it as coming from Satan.

So what about the keys and the church and the remittance of sins? In verse 17, Jesus said, “for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” So God the Father gave the first confession to Peter. We know that later in this very gospel, Jesus gives the great commission to the disciples and at Pentecost, Jesus delegates the power to accomplish the great commission to these disciples. That is the key to the kingdom of heaven. So what about binding and loosing? Verse says 19 says, “and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Notice the word 'whatsoever'. 'Whatsoever' is not 'whosoever' is it? No, we cannot forgive all sin against God and pronounce salvation. Only God can do that. John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 

4 hours ago, Hadasa said:

Then you have a problem with the Word! Learn the meaning of semantics.

se·man·tics

səˈman(t)iks/

noun

noun: semantics; noun: logical semantics; noun: lexical semantics

Nice dodge, but the burden of proof rests with you.

2 hours ago, Hadasa said:

If only your opinion NOT SUBSTANTIATED  by scripture is your only means of rebuttal then you will NOT convince me otherwise. PROVE ME WRONG!

The Bible says nothing about the assumption of Mary. Nothing for it. Nothing against it. So arguing from a position of silence is pointless.

1 hour ago, Hadasa said:

The Holy Trinity is defined by the Word , no semantics needed , HE'S GOT IT COVERED! And they were given a New song , the everlasting Gospel!

Make no mistake, I believe the trinity. What I don't believe is making Mary the Queen of Heaven by saying that Christ is God and therefore Mary is the mother of God. That is the semantics to which I referred. 

1 hour ago, Hadasa said:

A person spent page upon page saying why Mother Miriam(Mary) is not the God Bearer and posting all kinds of scripture which they falsely interpreted.

Now you are playing at semantics. You cannot explain nor define the trinity. If that is your basis for defending the assumption of Mary, you will persuade no one here.

If you want to see an example of the old and the new covenants being unified by Christ, study the book of Ruth. In the book of Ruth you have a Jewish and a Gentile bride, namely Naomi and Ruth. Both are redeemed by the child born in Bethlehem Judah. That child is the kinsman redeemer. 

Ruth 4:13-22 ¶ So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son. 14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel. 15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him. 16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it. 

18 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I don't see prophesy as there to "predict the future". Rather, I see it as there to prove God's power and sovereignty. I don't think there was a person alive (other than possibly John the Baptist, and only possibly) that accurately predicted Jesus as he actually came to be with us and was killed and resurrected. I think the same thing will happen regarding the 70th week. We all have our theories, but I think it will happen in ways none of us expected or imagined.

I could not have said it better myself. Especially when we see that some future events are specifically sealed. Who knows exactly what those seven thunders said and what effect they might have concerning timings and events.

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

All the events of the Exodus which foreshadow events of the End Times were sequential in time. There are no scriptures that prove the events of the End Times will not likewise be sequential. On the contrary, the three examples above show that each of these End Time earthquakes will take place under completely different circumstances.

I have never considered using the examples you provided as an argument for a sequential unfolding of the seals/trumpets/vials, but I love it. After all, it is the literal fulfillment of past prophecies that lends credence for the literal fulfillment of future prophecies. In like fashion the three holy convocations outlined in the Law with their respective feasts (eg. Passover/Feast of unleavened bread) surely have their past fulfillments in Christ as our Passover and First fruits/Feast of Weeks was fulfilled at Pentecost. When I look at the Fall feasts; tabernacles, trumpets, Day of Atonement, Jubilee etc. I see these as still future.

16 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

So really, there are two questions to answer here. Is it 2300 evenings PLUS mornings.....(1150 days).....or 2300 evenings and mornings (2300 days)?

It seems that the KJV translated the same as Wycliff, except that Wycliff included the euentid (evening) and morewtid (morning) and then used the word "daies" (days).  Plus it is really fun to read! Bottom line is that I am satisfied that either way it is translated, it means a day. This is important to defend against the Day/Age Theory of creation, that's why I got into the evening and the morning thing to begin with. (Not trying to open a whole new debate here with creation!)

Daniel 8:14 And he seide to hym, Til to the euentid and morewtid, two thousynde daies and thre hundrid; and the seyntuarie schal be clensid.

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

• “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:15-16

When Jesus makes the statement "I am coming like a thief" the armies are gathering together for Armageddon.  The day of the Lord is still future to the armies gathering.  All that's left at that point is the third woe which is the seventh trumpet and bowl, the seventh plague.

Excellent point. I think that the fact that this verse being written in Revelation 16 is another good argument against the pretribulation rapture theory. I used this verse in an other topic and it was explained away as only a pre-tribber can.

18 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I was just mentioning that the Great Earthquake maybe a marker if it is the same Great Earthquake mentioned 3 times in Revelation.  Also in the 6th seal it closely matches Mathew 24 even though Matthew 24 does not mention it as the Great Earthquake but the other signs in Mathew 24 do match the 6th seal.

So all that was overkill I guess. And here I thought I had killed the big one for you. ? Determining the markers is a tough but critical topic. When it comes to precise timings in Revelation it gets real foggy to me.  

בֹּקֶר bôqer, bo'-ker - properly, dawn (as the break of day); generally, morning:

It's the same Hebrew word rendered "and the morning" in creation. A different word is used for "And the evening" in Gen 1:5 etc. When the phrase "and the evening and the morning" is used it means one day. The Jews count their days starting in the evening. Anyway, that's how I see it. 

45 minutes ago, Diaste said:

This may be a stupid question but we are assuming these time periods are all in the 2nd half? No overlap?

Daniel heard one saint ask another saint how long the temple would be desolate. He answered 2,300 days (Daniel 8:13-14). The saints are given into the antichrist’s hand for 1,260 days (3½ years), but the desolation continues 1,040 days past that. This setting up of the image (the abomination of desolation) also starts the clock ticking for the 2,300 days (Daniel 8:14) that the temple will be desolate. That overruns the 3½-year (1,260- day) Great Tribulation by 1,040 days.

I copied and pasted this from Kent Hovind's book.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

That isn't the argument. It's the thesis. We are trying to explore the validity of a pretrib rapture and if it's an actual event or if it exists as only an idea, an idea that perhaps has become the first class section of the Dreamliner to eternity.

So it's not a conclusion that pretrib doctrine exists because of privilege, but whether the doctrine has become the table of the elite, and if that is justified or not.

 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

How about if I phrase the question like this; Is 1Thess 4:9 only for the Church or does this verse apply to all believers regardless of the dispensation (i.e. age of law, age of grace, tribulation period, or millennium) that they were born in?

19 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

There are 3 great earthquakes documented in Revelation.  Are these all the same event as Matthew 24,  In addition to Zechariah, Isaiah and Ezekiel?   

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

There is a great earthquake at the 6th seal, the two witnesses being resurrected, Babylon falling and at the 7th bowl which should be after the 7th seal.  Are all these the same event in the Wrath of God?

Hey Brother Duke, I looked at the references to the earthquakes you mentioned. I'm afraid that a lot goes into that question that I do not understand. The timing of these earthquakes is difficult. Matt 24 seems to be mentioning to a bunch of earthquakes that will occur near the end and not a specific one, so I don't think these quakes are the ones in Revelation.

Matt24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

In Revelation, I see an earthquake during the 6th seal (Rev 6:12-17), during the 7th seal (Rev 8:1-6), at the resurrection of the 2 witnesses (Rev 11:11-13), during the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18-19), and at the 7th vial (Rev 16:17-21). Some people see the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials operating concurrently. They might see some of these earthquakes as the same event with different details in their respective descriptions. I am still of the opinion that the 3 sets of 7 judgements as sequential. My view is not without its own difficulties, but the differences in the descriptions of the earthquakes are enough for me to doubt that they are the same event, but look at the similarities in these passages.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here are the various descriptions of the rest of the earthquakes in Revelation:

Revelation 8:5-6 During the 7th seal; no description given.  … and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 11:11-13 During the resurrection of the 2 witnesses; 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: 

Revelation 11:18-19 During the 7th trumpet;  …  and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16:17-21 During the 7th vial …  and. there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

So, I agree with you that God's wrath doesn't get poured out immediately after the sixth seal is opened, but the time of His wrath begins at that point with the plagues.   His wrath or anger is toward those who don't yield to His plague judgments, those who don't repent of their idolatry.

Thanks. I have no problem with your explanation here. I'm glad you took the time to elaborate.