ShinyGospelShoes

Where in scripture does the phrase "in the heart of the earth" mean (or =) the "grave" or "tomb" or "sepulchre"? I can assure all, there is no such place. The phrase means something else entirely, and because people do not prayerfully study and ask God and read the word, they stumble on this, and come up with all manner of false doctrines.

I still do not know what you are on about.

Free free to attempt to point me in the right direction with scripture where and when you specifically think I am 'confused'.

I still do not know what you are on about. I spoke of "oneness Pentacostalism", where did I use the word "all", or approach the idea that all Pentecostals were 'oneness'? I actually appreciate certain holiness pentacostals in their dress reform.

I've actually met such an person face to face, and others online. They are seriously confused, but no more so than those who hold to the error of Romanism's doctrine.

Jesus and the Father are not "one" in their Person/Being. In their Persons/Beings they are two, and the Holy Spirit makes three. They are a perfect 'chord', a trio (three working together in unison and purpose, and are thus in total harmony, one accord). Jesus, was speaking about character, not Person, see John 5:37, 14:9-14. Otherwise what you run into is either Roman Catholicism's false 'trinity' (Rome def.*) doctrine or oneness Pentacostalism. *there are other definitions Now, consider the definition of “one” in regards JEHOVAH Elohiym (LORD God), the disciples, marriage, covenant and atonement: Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4 HOT [read from Right to Left] - שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃ Side note: The Hebrew word [H259] “אחד”, “'echâd” is not, [H905] “בּד”, “bad” nor, [H3173] “יחיד”, “yâchı̂yd”. Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100] Deuteronomy 6:4 LXX* - “... Ἄκουε, Ισραηλ· κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν·” The Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB passage is quoted in the New Testament itself: Mark 12:29 KJB - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12:29 GNT - ὁ δὲ ᾿Ιησοῦς ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὅτι πρώτη πάντων ἐντολὴ· ἄκουε, ᾿Ισραήλ, Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν Κύριος εἷς ἐστι· This is clearly explained in more detail in 1 John 5:7,8 KJB, the "are one" is defined by the next verse, "agree in one", meaning they three are one in purpose, etc, not person: 1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 GNT - ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος και τὸ ῞Αγιον Πνεύμα, καὶ οὗτοι οι τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι· 1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8 GNT - καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οι μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ, τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν. Marriage, in the King James Bible, uses these very same words to describe the at-one-ment of two persons of man-kind, a male and female in covenant relationship with God: Genesis 2:24 KJB - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Genesis 2:24 HOT - על־כן יעזב־אישׁ את־אביו ואת־אמו ודבק באשׁתו והיו לבשׂר אחד׃ Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100] Genesis 2:24 LXX* - ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν. See how “they”, being before “twain”, that is to say two persons, one male and one female, are to be after the marriage covenant, “one”: Matthew 19:5 KJB - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Matthew 19:5 GNT TR - καὶ εἶπεν, ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ κολληθήσεται τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν; Matthew 19:6 KJB - Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Matthew 19:6 GNT TR - ὥστε οὐκέτι εἰσὶ δύο, ἀλλὰ σὰρξ μία. ὃ οὖν ὁ Θεὸς συνέζευξεν, ἄνθρωπος μὴ χωριζέτω. Mark 10:6 KJB - But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. Mark 10:6 GNT TR- ἀπὸ δὲ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν αὐτούς ὁ Θεός· Mark 10:7 KJB - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; Mark 10:7 GNT TR - ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, Mark 10:8 KJB - And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. Mark 10:8 GNT TR - καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν. ὥστε οὐκέτι εἰσὶ δύο, ἀλλὰ μία σάρξ· Mark 10:9 KJB - What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Mark 10:9 GNT TR - ὃ οὖν ὁ Θεὸς συνέζευξεν ἄνθρωπος μὴ χωριζέτω. 1 Corinthians 6:16 KJB - What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1 Corinthians 6:16 GNT TR - ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ὁ κολλώμενος τῇ πόρνῃ ἓν σῶμά ἐστιν; ἔσονται γάρ, φησίν, οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν· 1 Corinthians 6:17 KJB - But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:17 GNT TR - ὁ δὲ κολλώμενος τῷ Κυρίῳ ἓν πνεῦμά ἐστι. Ephesians 5:31 KJB - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Ephesians 5:31 GNT TR - ἀντὶ τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν. They, which are entered into the marriage covenant, are to be one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. This is how Jesus Christ even spoke of Himself and the Father, along with Himself and the Disciples, and even with the disciples amongst themselves, togetherness in mind, in purpose, in harmony, but not in person: John 10:30 KJB - I and my Father are one. John 10:30 GNT TR - εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν John 17:11 KJB - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:11 GNT TR - καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ οὗτοι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ εἰσί, κἀγὼ πρὸς σὲ ἔρχομαι. πάτερ ἅγιε, τήρησον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς. John 17:21 KJB - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:21 GNT TR - ἵνα πάντες ἓν ὦσι, καθὼς σύ, πάτερ, ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν σοί, ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν ἡμῖν ἓν ὦσιν, ἵνα ὁ κόσμος πιστεύῃ ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας. John 17:22 KJB - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: John 17:22 GNT TR - κἀγὼ τὴν δόξαν ἢν δέδωκάς μοι δέδωκα αὐτοῖς, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς ἕν ἐσμεν, This is what prophecy said would be: Ezekiel 11:19 KJB - And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel 11:19 HOT - ונתתי להם לב אחד ורוח חדשׁה אתן בקרבכם והסרתי לב האבן מבשׂרם ונתתי להם לב בשׂר׃ Other passages which also speak of togetherness of multiplicity: Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 11:4 KJB - And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. Genesis 11:5 KJB - And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. Genesis 11:7 KJB - Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. Nehemiah 8:1 KJB - And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. Isaiah 6:8 KJB - Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Joshua 9:2 KJB - That they gathered themselves together, to fight with Joshua and with Israel, with one accord. Matthew 18:19 KJB - Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 3:11 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. Acts 1:14 KJB - These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Acts 2:1 KJB - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 2:46 KJB - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Acts 4:24 KJB - And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Acts 5:12 KJB - And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. Acts 7:57 KJB - Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, Acts 8:6 KJB - And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. Acts 12:20 KJB - And Herod was highly displeased with them of Tyre and Sidon: but they came with one accord to him, and, having made Blastus the king's chamberlain their friend, desired peace; because their country was nourished by the king's country. Acts 15:15 KJB - And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, Acts 15:25 KJB - It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Acts 18:12 KJB - And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat, Acts 19:29 KJB - And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre. Romans 12:16 KJB - Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. Romans 15:6 KJB - That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:10 KJB - Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 2 Corinthians 13:11 KJB - Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Ephesians 4:3 KJB - Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Ephesians 4:4 KJB - There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Philippians 1:27 KJB - Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; Philippians 2:2 KJB - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Philippians 4:2 KJB - I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. 1 Peter 3:8 KJB - Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. As seen, even the wicked can be in a similar state: Revelation 17:13 KJB - These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Revelation 17:13 GNT TR - οὗτοι μίαν γνώμην ἔχουσι, καὶ τὴν δύναμιν καὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν αὐτῶν τῷ θηρίῳ διδόασιν. Revelation 17:17 KJB - For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. Revelation 17:17 GNT TR - ὁ γὰρ Θεὸς ἔδωκεν εἰς τὰς καρδίας αὐτῶν ποιῆσαι τὴν γνώμην αὐτοῦ, καὶ ποιῆσαι μίαν γνώμην καὶ δοῦναι τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτῶν τῷ θηρίῳ ἄχρι τελεσθῶσιν οἱ λόγοι τοῦ Θεοῦ. The Bible [King James Bible for English] is a specific example of this “at-one-ment”, itself not only being a work of God and man-kind [even as Jesus is God and man], it is also “one” book, being many books, many prophets, many people, that all agree in one, even as the “law” and the “testimony” agree together with one mind, one purpose, though they are God's “two witnesses” [plural] agreeing together in witness [singular]. The 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, though each a differing personal witness, all agree together when compared prayerfully: Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. John 8:17 KJB - It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. Acts 10:43 KJB - To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Acts 15:15 KJB - And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, Romans 3:21 KJB - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 2 Corinthians 13:1 KJB - This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Etc.

Those interested in truth, will look them up. 2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Jesuitism. and the pagan Ogdoad. It ain't even true. Ready to look at scripture, at when the disciples met?

I just stated I do not have access to speakers, haven't for quite some time, therefore would request your assistance, if you desire me to consider the points therein. I would also ask if you have read what I have already given in this thread about Jude 1:9.

Interested in the following section: " Angelology, Part 3 - Classes of Angels (Jude 1:9) ... and why the Archangel Michael is not Jesus. [60 minutes] " Could you please summarize the main points of the reasons given for the negative position? I do not actually have speakers to listen to anything at the moment, and haven't had some for quite some time. If you do, I would be glad to consider the points.

I was referring to the OP. Apologies for any misunderstanding.

For any interested in the previous link given for an entire study, here is the ToC (Table of Contents) to that study for fast searching: Michael the Archangel Table Of Contents: [00] Introduction [01] Locating the main texts on Michael the Archangel in The King James Bible [02] The basic definitions of the words “Michael” and “Archangel” according to the King James Bible [03] The word “angel” as defined and used throughout the whole of the King James Bible Section [03] also includes material about the life on the other unfallen worlds, and in Heaven and also includes the Subsection: The Nature of Angels, Christ in the Resurrection, and our own Translation or Resurrection [04] Archangels in the King James Bible and in the Spirit of Prophecy/The Testimony of Jesus [05] Michael the great prince of Daniel [06] The Two Princes [07] Revelation 12, An Unbreakable Chiastic Structure [08] The Great Controversy; Michael vs Dragon [09] The Comparisons of the “Angel of the LORD” throughout the King James Bible [09-A] The LORD descends, A Shout, A Voice, A Resurrection [09-B] Moses, Joshua, Acts, A Holy Person, Holy Ground, Shoes and Worship [09-C] “...but surely, as it is written, “No man has seen God...”, Right?” [09-D] The Angel in the Pillar of Fire/Cloud, God in the Pillar of Fire/Cloud [09-E] The Wonderful Name [09-F] The Redeeming “Angel”, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, God of Israel [09-G] “The LORD rebuke thee.” - with subsection Moses Resurrection [09-H] Those who wrestle with God, Those who wrestle the Angel, The New Name [09-I] The Person who sees, hears, blesses, multiplies, and who is always with us [10] Questions and Answers; about Michael Archangel/Jesus Texts [10-A] Question 01: Did Michael need help in fighting against Satan who was interfering with the Kings of Persia in Daniel 10 KJB? [10-B] Question 02: Is not Gabriel the “angel of his presence”? [10-C] Question 03: Is the Son of God, Jesus, ever referred to as an “Angel” directly in the scripture, the King James Bible? [10-D] Question 04: How is it known that it was Michael/Jesus that Daniel saw in the passages of Daniel 10:5-9, 12:5-13 KJB? [10-E] Question 05: How do we know that the “messenger [angel] of the covenant” in Malachi 3:1 KJB is Jesus Christ? [10-F] Question 06: How can the Son of God – Jesus be Michael the archangel, since in Daniel 10:13 KJB, Michael is said to be “... one of the chief princes ...”? [10-G] Question 07: How can Jesus, who is JEHOVAH [E/I]mmanuel, be “Michael the archangel”, or “the angel of the LORD” since in Hebrews 1:1-14 KJB the passage says that Jesus is “so much better than the angels” [Hebrews 1:4 KJB], has “a more excellent name than they” [Hebrews 1:4 KJB] and all the “angels of God” are to “worship him [Jesus]” [Hebrews 1:6 KJB] because He is “the brightness of his [the Father's] glory, and the express image of his [the Father's] person” [Hebrews 1:3 KJB]? [10-H] Question 08: Are there not other persons in the King James Bible who have the name “Michael” or similar, and if “Michael the archangel” is truly the Uncreated Son of God, would it not be blasphemy for any other person, being created, to have the same name as He? [10-I] Question 09: If Jesus is Michael the archangel, how could Michael and his angels [Revelation 12:7-9 KJB] overcome by the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:7-11 KJB? [11] Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation, along with various prominent Theologians, Commentators, Concordances, Dictionaries, Lexicons and others who teach that “Michael the archangel” is the Eternal Almighty Son of God, JEHOVAH [E/I]mmanuel - Jesus, and/or the “angel of the LORD”, the very highest messenger of the Father [12] The Plan of Redemption, Who is like unto God? Michael the archangel, who shall be able to stand with Him? Daniel 11:40-45, 12:1-3 KJB [XX] Appendix 1 – The Epistles of Peter & Jude compared [XX] Appendix 2 – The Short Historical List of those who taught Jesus is Michael the archangel and/or angel of the LORD [XX] Appendix 3 – The Many Names And Titles Of The Son Of The Father – Jesus [XX] Appendix 4 – The Son of the Father, Jesus, who is JEHOVAH [E/I]mmanuel, the Eternal and great I AM, God manifest in the flesh [XX] Appendix 5 – The Cross throughout the Bible and in the Sanctuary [XX] Appendix 6 – Daniel & the Revelation compared [XX] Appendix 7 – Daniel 11:1-20 KJB, a work in progress Please keep in mind it is several years old by now, and though it ought not need any correcting (I am always open to do so), it probably needs updating with the new materials, but I cannot change out the file at the link at this time.

1. Depends on the references to "Michael" as the name is used more than for the 'archangel'. If you refer to just the passages which speak of the personage of Michael the archangel, and no other Michael, then in every single case it is a direct reference to the uncreated "Angel of the LORD", "Captain of the Host of the LORD", the Son of the Father (Jesus). Yes, Abraham saw The Son (LORD) and his two covering Cherub (that Lot also saw later) in Genesis 17-19, and yes Joshua saw JOSHUA. 2. Yes, truth is always essential, never trivial, for we are sanctified by the truth, and it is the truth which sets us free in so many ways. As stated previously, it deals with the final events (among so many other events) and the matter of character in the plan of redemption, the restoration of the image of God in mankind through the gospel. It would be akin to asking if it was essential to understand who Immanuel is and what the name means. Therefore, it is an accurate view.

Me neither. I merely cited them for the official stance, among so many others. I do not ask men to follow them. I ask persons to follow Truth (Jesus), He who is as God (the Father) is, even His express image.

It is a good and honest question, though I personally think that the link gotquestions is a bad source to go to for information on it. Even though it might have some good points, all things are to be tested by the word of God, and not merely taken as correct, simply because it sounds nice, is tidy looking, and simplisitic and uses scripture and is run by Christians. None of those things, which are beneficial, are the criteria as the standard and foundation as the word of God is. Thus: 1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Act_17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

WTS/JW teach it. I do not, as it is gross error, and I cited the verse from their own NWT and the KJB to demonstrate that it is direct violation of one of the clearest scriptures on Jesus' resurrected and glorified body. as a P.S. here is another very clear text to show them: Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. In fact, in the NWT they had to change this verse in order to make their doctrine work.

1522 was still a little early Luther. He 'grew up' since that time and wholeheartedly embraced Revelation.

I didn't confirm or deny anything, as I see it irrelevant to the OP. I did give you a definition to work with though.

I never said Luther made everyone believe what he said. I simply stated he did teach it as others also stated he did (citation upon request). Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546) was a German monk [Order of St. Augustine], Catholic priest, professor of theology and seminal figure of the 16th-century movement in Christianity known later as the Protestant Reformation, "the Dr. Luther" of the Lutheran movement. [German] D. Martin Luthers Werke: Kritische Gesamtausgabe; D. Martin Luthers Deutsche Bibel 1522-1546, Elfter Band Zweite Halft Die Ubersetzung des Prophetenteils des Alten Testaments (Daniel bis Maleachi). Hermann Bohlaus Nachfolger / Weimar; 1960. Full Text of Page 108: "... [Page 108; 1541 Translation; Page 109; 1545 Translation] 1541 ... Er nennets gepflanzt, Denn der Bapst hat ein Paradis aller luft zu Rom, oder in der Kirchen, gemacht, da er aller Welt, Gut, Gewalt und Ehre, frey nach seinem willen braucht. BVR selbigen zeit, wird sich auffmachen der grosse Furst Michael, der fur die Kinder deines Volks stehet, Denn es wird ein solche trübselige Zeit sein als nicht gewest ist, sint das Leute gewest sind, bis auss diese zeit. WIE wol Michael eins Engels name ist, doch verstehen wir hie, gleich wie auch Apoc. XII. den hErrn Christum selbs da durch, Die hie niden auff Erden mit seinen Engeln, das ist Predigern, streittet wider den Teufel, durchs Evangelium, Denn er nennet in den grossen Fursten. DERselbige hat sich nu auffgemacht, und stehet fur die Christen, und tröstet sie, mit dem Wort der Gnaden. DENn his da her ist die grewlichst zeit gewest, als auff Erden ie gewest ist, WIE Christus diese wort auch füret, Matth. [Bl. XIII.] XXIIII. Und wo diese Tage nicht verkürzt weren und auffgehöret hetten, So were sein Mensch selig worden, auch die Edomiten, Moabiten, Ammoniten nicht. DENN es schon angefangen in Welschenlanden, zu Rom und mehr Orten. Das man Epicurisch aus dem Glauben ein gespött gemacht, und die Kinder auch nicht mehr teusset. Also were beide Tauffe, Sacrament, und Wort alles aus gewest, und sein Mensch mehr selig worden. ... ... 9: Dan[iel]. 12,1 14: Off[enbarung]. 12,7. 19: Matth[ew]. 24,21f." [Page 108; 1541 Translation; Page 109; 1545 Translation] - https://archive.org/stream/s12werkediedeuts11luth#page/108/mode/1up https://archive.org/stream/s12werkediedeuts11luth#page/109/mode/1up

I am defending scriptural truth, and not once have I defended "cultlike positions", and all the while stated I was not for such positions, and even wrote against those positions in this thread on several occasions. The "JW doctrine that 'Michael the archangel, first creation ..." is heresy in the first degree and grievously so. The Son is eternal, uncreated, self-existing, I AM (the Son), etc. The last part about "rose as a spirit'" is just plain error, as may be seen in their own 'silver sword', just look up in their NWT: Luke 24:39 NWT - See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.” - Link Luk_24:39 KJB Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Again, as shown in several instances, the WTS/JW got their doctrine from the "bible Students" which stemmed from the "advent" movement in the 19th cent (mid 1800's), which carried a large portion of Reformation doctrine into it, of which the WTS later distorted, by mixing Reformation and Roman Catholicism doctrines. It is Romanism which teaches that Michael is nothing but a created being, an angel by nature, for they did this to increase their angel-veneration (worship; dulia). It does this for a specific reason, which I shall not get into here. I do not "seem" to deny it. I wholeheartedly have denied it on several occasions. The Son of God is eternal Deity, always was with the Father. There was never a time in eternity past when the Son was not. There was never a time in eternity past when the Son was not equal with the Father.

The Son (Jesus) is identified as "Angel of the LORD" in the OT. Do you see that as correct and accurate?

Interesting question, but again, non-sequitur. It would depend on how I define '7th day adventist' in answering that question. For instance, Jesus kept the 7th day and taught about His second coming. So from that perspective ... again, way off OP (Michael). While Seventh-day Adventists do indeed teach this very theology, the Reformation, long before Seventh-day Adventists taught it (as already cited). Luther, Melanchthon, Hengstengberg, Oeclampadius, Genevans, and thousands of others, of which a brief listing was given.

Non-sequitur to the entire OP (Michael)., and you also seem to have a great misunderstanding about what Seventh-day Adventists teach on what happened at Calvary, but I do not intend to get into it in this thread. I am already having to deal with so many other off-topic conversations that are trying to creep in ("sons of God", "WTS/JW", "LDS", etc).

I took this at face value: " Because I grew up in a cult, I recognise my teaching and understanding of what the Bible says was often incorrect, please be patient with me if I word a question wrongly, I have a lot to unlearn. Sometimes (often) I do not realise I have learned something incorrectly until it is pointed out to me. Please gently correct me if i am erring. " I was correcting you in the only way I know, that my own statement was seen clearly. Apologies if so doing offended you. I would ask that you at least please continue to read the evidences as each presents, and pray to God about what is said and study to shew yourself approved. Sorry to see you leave. I wasn't quite sure at which part I offended. I wasn't intending to.

Exactly. Now with this text, we have something to work with.