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mlssufan01

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  1. It seems as though this concept of Boundaries, preached by Henry Cloud, is becoming incredibly widespread these days...I've had my suspicions, but could never quite articulate things well...however, this blog from someone who, to the best of my knowledge, seems to be Calvinist (not 100% sure), seems to put into words what I had trouble expressing. cloud visited his church and this is his review: http://thetrustworthyword.blogspot.com/2016/07/a-response-to-dr-henry-clouds-sermon-at.html
  2. What do you mean a-milennial? I think the issue of biblical knowledge is a case by case basis with each individual, however; they also seem to pull verses to reinforce their theology many times, rather than use the context of the biblical account.
  3. I'm not at all suggesting all Calvinists are unsaved. However I am concerned that they make bold claims about ones salvation, and seem to think that unless you believe exactly as they do, you cannot be saved. They pretty much declare everyone a heretic who does not conform to their teaching 100%
  4. Ok but irregardless of this, he was still the leader over a nation exercising capital punishment for heresy..it seems very clear that he authorized the death of anywhere between 38 to 78 people (albeit reasons unknown for every case), even if he himself did not do the killing. It's like saying Pontius Pilate didnt kill Jesus because he isnt the one that actually crucified him, but Scripture makes it clear Pilate is responsible. It still shows me there was no conviction by the Holy Spirit.
  5. Even this phrase agree to disagree was brought up, where the congregants said saying agree to disagree is sinful. They seem to say we must all believe the same thing or else it is sin. That's sort of why I'm hesitant about this church...it seems extremely prideful and self righteous.
  6. first off, I apologize if my tone was condescending; over text tone can be lost; I was trying to point out a flaw in the source material--yes it is true I missed the last paragraph, as I was probably blinded by the title of reformed answers and also church history sources that refer to a historical library known to be pro-Calvinist. I'm actually shocked someone could have read those sources and still come away disagreeing with Calvinism. However, while these documents perhaps partially explain what happened...there's still many deviations on this story...some Calvinists even say Calvin did not even authorize the murder of anybody-from walking alongside Calvinists, one thing they preach is Sola Scriptura--Scripture Alone; which is actually very good...however John Calvin used this method to justify his murders, as, from what I have read, says he used Leviticus's command to put to death as a command from God to kill heretics. So I'm just trying to process that conundrum;;;are there sources outside the Bible that can contribute to our spiritual growth, would be a way to put it.
  7. You're answering from a Reformed Theology website, which of course is going to skew the facts in favor of John Calvin...and even then does not support it's claim with evidence--nor does it mention any repentance on the part of John Calvin. Murder is murder, no matter what the law may say. This website is actually trying to defend that John Calvin murdered someone--again a lack of conviction of sin. Even if the other party is a heretic or wanted for murder, it does not negate your sinfulness nor make justification for your sin. The Bible states that we are not to take eye for an eye, but rather turn the other cheek. Granted, in the face of persecution this becomes increasingly difficult, I will attest to that, but nowhere does the Bible say one man's sin is grounds for our retaliation. If the President declared murder to be legal, that would not make murder biblical, even on the grounds of heresy. This actually specifically shows Calvin's tendency towards self-protection, nation-state protection, and doctrinal protection, over dying to self and laying down his life, as commanded by the Bible. Your argument is like McDonald's saying Burger King is bad because it has too many calories, and saying McDonald's is good by referring you to the McDonald's Calorie chart that lists calories and tells you it's amazing. This seems to be swaying me to the knowledge that either John Calvin could not possibly have been convicted by the Holy Spirit, or the doctrine that the Holy Spirit convicts the elect is unbiblical, or that conviction of the Holy Spirit is not grounds for judging the salvation of a man. Perhaps you could lead me to an unbiased source of the facts...perhaps a historical account written by someone without an agenda to convert to their theology?
  8. I'm not sure what youd like me to ask. You could interpret my question as a search for true biblical doctrine perhaps, but I would really like to know if Calvin killed, or even authorized the killing of people he claimed were heretics.
  9. I've been attending a Calvinist church (at first didn't know that's what it was); and at first they seemed loving...they seem to, at least from what I can see, have a decent knowledge of the Bible...although some concepts can be very confusing, such as predestination, election, and limited atonement. However, the Bible also says we will know a true follower by their fruit, as John MacArthur says on a Grace to You Podcast, it's how we recognize unbelievers. knowing them by their lifestyle---however there is also much in the Bible about discerning with brothers as well..the Bible says a man cannot hate his brother and claim to love God; it also says that the fruit of the spirit is love joy peace patience kindness goodness gentleness and self-control; and the works of the flesh are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[ drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[ such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yet, researching John Calvin, I've seen claims of him burning and killing people; some claim he killed as many as 78 people, while some claim he killed nobody--I cannot see evidence on either side of the argument. This is of great concern, because one of the main points of the Calvinists is that the Holy Spirit will convict believers and it is proof of their conversion--but if Calvin killed 78 people--or even approved of the killing of 78 people, heretical or not, then we would see that there is no conviction in his heart about the Bible's command to not murder, and to pray for his enemies. Furthermore, many Calvinists reject any teaching that does not 100% agree with theirs, and calls it heretical. However, we see in 1 John 4 that By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, in other words, even if someone perhaps misunderstands or misinterprets Scripture, but still professes Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected would not be a false prophet, at least this is what I see. But many Calvinists will look at people who preach Jesus and call them heretics. Thus, I am confused. I was given a link to a video by Sye Ten Bruggencate, and while I couldn't necessarily disagree with his biblical knowledge; and it was good he is preaching the Gospel- his behavior was deplorable and sinful and disrespectful, when trying to have a conversation with people. Another big issue the seemingly idolatrous nature of Calvinism to love and shout all Calvinist teachers, such as Sproul, Spurgeon, ; and modern-day leaders like Voddie Baucham, Jeff Durbin, and John MacArthur; But Paul warns of following men, saying some follow Paul, and others Apollos, but I follow Christ. Here we see a lot of following of biblical teachers referring to the Bible, and a myriad of people idolizing the teachers alongside their worship of Jesus. I really want to like this church, I really do...but I also want to love my neighbor in a way that honors Jesus, and I just don't think the way they do it does that, but perhaps some healthy debate could help clear the issues for me. This is a link to the video, I put the start time where he interacts in a debate forum. Edit: Video deleted - videos are only allowed in the video threads (there is a video section in the forums)
  10. In reference to being willing to change...all of us need to change something...nobody is perfect, we need each other's help. .Sometimes you don't recognize your sin and sometimes I don't recognize mine. If I can identify it, I can change it. If you can identify it, and gently point this out to me, I can then change. When nobody can point to where change is needed, even among church counsel, then perhaps we have a separate issue. Perhaps someone thinks something is sin when it is not. Perhaps someone thinks something is not sin when it is. This is why you need more than one pastor, more than two people, sometimes more than three people.
  11. Here are some references, though admittedly, only some of them are actual direct references to the author himself, while some are just stories of those who either dealt with the man or heard radio stories...so most would not consider it worthy evidence. The Youtube Videos, however, point to his use of one-sided arguments...in this video we see a caller badmouth her mother, and Henry Cloud supports her boundary, despite never talking to the mother. In the following website I would forward you to the comments, as it exemplifies my narrative of people's commentary on boundaries. While I certainly can't point you to any 100% fullproof source indicating their truthfulness, I would concede that there is enough witness testimony here to at least call his method of boundary-giving into question: http://pastor-ricks-musings.blogspot.com/ As for Henry Cloud saying people called him selfish, this is found here. Edited by George -- Placed the videos on the videos forum and linked to the page below.
  12. I am not the author of the article...it was written by another Christian author, so those are not my words. I think it's more along the lines I think we can set sinful boundaries as well. I'm not saying all boundaries are bad, but I am saying some are. Besides this point, setting a boundary doesnt stop someone from crossing that boundary. You tell a child dont touch that stove, it's hot, they still do it. This is a good boundary. But you can also tell a child to never eat apples because they ate one that made them sick, when in fact most apples are healthy. This is a bad boundary. What I am saying is boundaries are created by humans who still implement human nature in their boundary making. Hopefully that makes sense.
  13. When my pastor said he was implementing boundaries, my mind went to a million different places...were they right, were the boundaries sinful, am I overthinking this, why won't they reconcile, it feels like they won't forgive me when I'm willing to change. Have I even done anything wrong? What I tend to do when I look a Christian resource that isn't the Bible...is ask how has it affected people, both positively and negatively? Even if I disagree with it, is there any truth anywhere to be found? That's sort of where my thinking went with Henry Cloud's books on Boundaries...All of the supporters are those that give boundaries...there is not one positive review by someone who said boundaries were implemented and it helped them see the light...The vast majority of reviews are either those who gave boundaries...those who were hurt by boundaries, or those who regretted giving boundaries. I have yet to find someone who was thankful someone gave them a boundary. However...I also must take into account the sad reality of the worst case scenarios...rape, murder, abuse, surely it would be wise to place a boundary on these people, wouldn't it? I frantically searched Scripture hoping that God would show me the truth. I saw some vague interpretations...such as Jesus getting away from crowds to pray, or going to the temple, to the frustration of his earthly parents, but nowhere did I see Jesus ending relationships, in particular with his disciples. I saw his teaching of going and being reconciled, which by definition is the restoring of relationship. Many people refer to Paul and Barnabas having a division, but even this, I could not find instruction...only an account of events. The only actual teaching of boundaries was this: in 1 Corinthians, a man was engaged in incest with his mother, and had no remorse or repentance...Paul instructed Corinth to remove him from fellowship, to be handed over to Satan. However...in 2 Corinthians, Paul instructs them to reconcile...to forgive him, welcome him, and comfort him, so that he may not despair..can you imagine...having to associate with a sinner who committed such a heinous act? Yet that is what God said there. I began searching all cases of boundaries...a concept which did not originate in Christian circles, but finds it's origins within mental health and psychology...boundaries was a hot button topic in the 80's, while Henry Cloud's book wasn't published until 1992. I seriously questioned a lot of his behavior...as it seems to me people rebuked his theology and he just didn't care. People told him he was selfish and he essentially said there was no way he could possibly be wrong on this; while I don't think he's all wrong...an attitude of this manner struck me as extremely dangerous. I began to decide that boundaries were not really good or bad...they were amoral...they can be used righteously or sinfully. I see Henry Cloud very swiftly instructing couples to divorce without proper marriage counseling or even discussing matters with both parties; I also read the countless hurts of those who were engaged in his ministry..he seemed extremely dangerous. Then I discovered an article by Ed Welch...and his take on boundaries really hit on a lot of what I was feeling. It's about a 10-page essay, but I feel it is quite a good read, and a much better approach to relationships with a more biblical view of boundaries. I would appreciate feedback. https://womenscareministry.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/boundaries.pdf
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