Hands On

This topic of "Can or are Christians allowed to become angry?" came up in a Bible Study session we had about two years back.I shan't go into too many details as to what brought up this matter.The conclusion we came to according to the Bible is a big "Yes".For instance we find Christ in His incarnated/human form expression this exact emotion as in "1 Then Jesus went back to the synagogue, where there was a man who had a paralyzed hand. 2 Some people were there who wanted to accuse Jesus of doing wrong; so they watched him closely to see whether he would cure the man on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man, "Come up here to the front." 4 Then he asked the people, "What does our Law allow us to do on the Sabbath? To help or to harm? To save someone's life or to destroy it?" But they did not say a thing. 5 Jesus was angry (my bold) as he looked around at them, but at the same time he felt sorry for them, because they were so stubborn and wrong. Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and it became well again. 6 So the Pharisees left the synagogue and met at once with some members of Herod's party, and they made plans to kill Jesus. "(Good News Bible Mk 3 :1-5) Of course there is also the very well known temple incident as well where Christ got angry and chased out the money lenders and other business activities in God's Holy House. (Jn 2:15) Christ even beat the living daylights out of them " as in "So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple; he scattered the coins of the money changes and overturned their tables"(N.I.V.Jn 2:15) Anger is a natural human emotion as much as "happiness and joy" are.We must just ensure that as William Barclay suggests in his exposition on this issue that it is "God controlled anger" and does not linger on.In other words is it a thing that Christ would say or do?No matter whether it is family or whoever, I believe.

Bob Utley on his site offers these following guide lines : " This issue must be dealt with in two ways. 1. believers are admonished not to judge one another (cf. Matt. 7:1-5; Luke 6:37,42; Rom. 2:1-11; James 4:11-12) 2. believers are admonished to evaluate leaders (cf. Matt. 7:6,15-16; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; and 1 John 4:1-6) Some criteria for proper evaluation may be helpful. 1. evaluation should be for the purpose of affirmation (cf. 1 John 4:1 – "test" with a view toward approval) 2. evaluation should be done in humility and gentleness (cf. Gal. 6:1) 3. evaluation must not focus on personal preference issues (cf. Rom. 14:1-23; 1 Cor. 8:1-13; 10:23-33) 4. evaluation should identify those leaders who have "no handle for criticism" from within the church or the community (cf. 1 Timothy 3)."(Utley. This issue must be dealt with in two ways. 1. believers are admonished not to judge one another (cf. Matt. 7:1-5; Luke 6:37,42; Rom. 2:1-11; James 4:11-12) 2. believers are admonished to evaluate leaders (cf. Matt. 7:6,15-16; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; and 1 John 4:1-6) Some criteria for proper evaluation may be helpful. 1. evaluation should be for the purpose of affirmation (cf. 1 John 4:1 – "test" with a view toward approval) 2. evaluation should be done in humility and gentleness (cf. Gal. 6:1) 3. evaluation must not focus on personal preference issues (cf. Rom. 14:1-23; 1 Cor. 8:1-13; 10:23-33) 4. evaluation should identify those leaders who have "no handle for criticism" from within the church or the community (cf. 1 Timothy 3)."(Utley.freebiblecommentary.org)

This might well be an argument from silence, but looking up various Bible Dictionaries and Googling about,I can find no evidence that Jethro was from the direct line of Ismael. The New Bible Dictionary tells us "Jethro.Moses' father-in-law Reuel, called Jethro in Ex 3,1;4:18.He brought Zipporah and her sons to meet Moses at Mt.Horeb, and held a sacrifice to Yaweh...Moses persuaded Jethro's son Hobad to join the Israelites In Jdg.4:11 'Hobad the Kenite ' is called Moses' hoten , perhaps a broad term for 'in-law', this , with Jdg 1:16,is the only evvidence for Jethro's Kenite descent.The name may mean 'pre-eminence."(Douglas and others The New Bible Dictionary). According to Hasting's Dictionary " KENITES.—A nomadic tribe, closely connected with the Amalekites (wh. see), and probably indeed a branch of them, but having friendly relations with Israel, and ultimately, it seems, at least in the main, absorbed in Judah. Hobab, Moses' father-in-law (Jg 116 411 RVm), who had been invited by Moses and had doubtless accepted the invitation—to be a guide to Israel in the wilderness (Nu lO29-32), was a Kenite; and his descendants came up from Jericho with the tribe of Judah into the S. part of their territory (Arad is about 17 miles S. of Hebron), though afterwards, true to their Bedouin instincts, they roamed beyond the border an'd rejoined their kinsmen, the Amalekites, in the N. of the Sinaitic Peninsula (Jg 116 read in this verse, with MSS of LXX, 'the Amalekite' for 'the people'—three letters have dropped out in the Heb.). Also in support of Appy " Also in support of Appy there is Fasset’s Bible Dictionary,who in turn refer to “E. Wilton (Imperial Dictionary). suggests that Kenites is a religious rather than a gentilic term, meaning "a worshipper of the goddess Kain", one form of Ashtoreth or Astarte. This would account for God's denunciation of the Kenites by Balaam (Num_24:21-22 margin). Evidently the Kenites to be dispossessed by Israel (Gen_15:19) were distinct from the Kenites to whom Hobab and Jethro belonged. The latter were of Midianite origin, sprung from Abraham and Keturah, occupying the region E. of Egypt and W. of Seir and the gulf of Akabah (Gen_25:2); the former were Canaanites of the city Kain, which was taken by Judah (Jos_15:57). The Canaanite Kenites Balaam denounces; or else more probably Balaam's prophecy is "Kain (the Midianite Kenites) shall not be exterminated until Asshur shall carry him away into captivity" (Keil).”(Fausset’s Bible Dictionary).No mention is made of any link with Ishmael."

This is the best overly opinioned anti- mother-in-law vaccine I can offer thanks to : psychologytoday.com/us/blog/communication-success/201512/5 "How can you effectively handle difficult relatives who insist on imposing their views? Below are five important keys, with references from my book, How to Communicate Effectively and Handle Difficult People. Not all of the tips below may apply to your particular situation. Simply use what works and leave the rest. 1. Set Boundaries Diplomatically When a relative insists on levying her or his opinion onto you, respond assertively and diplomatically with “I” and “It” statements. For example, if someone says to you: “When are you going to settle down?” respond with any combination of the following: “I prefer to focus on other priorities right now.” “I prefer not to have attachments right now.” “It’s important for me to take the time I need before settling down.” “It doesn’t work for me to settle down right now.” “I made a promise to myself that I will establish myself before settling down.” What these “I” and “It” statements have in common is that they are more difficult to outright disagree with. After all, you’re simply exercising your own choice as an adult. Should a relative insist on grilling you, avoid getting defensive by engaging in arguments or giving justifications. Instead, say briefly and succinctly, “It’s my choice.” Repeat the short “I” and “It” statements until the difficult relative gives up. 2. Say: “Thank You” to Terminate the Topic An effective way to halt unsolicited advice is simply to say “thank you” in a firm tone of voice. It’s a polite and yet powerful way to indicate that you no longer wish to discuss the matter. You can use “thank you” as part of a diplomatic and/or assertive statement. For example: “I appreciate your input. THANK YOU.” “I’m okay with the way things are, but THANK YOU.” “I’m happy with my decision right now, but THANK YOU.” How long can an opinionated relative keep up with her or his jabber if you keep saying “thank you”? Probably not much. 3. Change the Topic If a stubborn relative doesn’t take your diplomatic hints, and continues to pursue an unwelcome issue, take control of the situation by changing the topic. You can do this easily by posing questions of a completely different nature back to the relative (pick a subject she or he will enjoy talking about). Or, if you’re in a group environment, ask your question to someone else. Cut off the stream of unsolicited advice, and redirect the focus."

For me its the attempt by finite mankind to outsmart his infinite God. "19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight.As it is written (ftJob 5:13 my insert): He catches the wise in their craftiness 20 and again, 'The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile (ft Ps 94:11 my insert)"(N.IV.1 Cor.3:19-20)Although the following quote is not Scriptural nevertheless from a logical point of view it more than states the obvious in the citation from Scientist Isaac Asimov "Furthermore , the advance of technology cannot help but increase the power of the individual human being to commit effective violence...This continues without limit.Human beings now have at their disposal a series of weapons deadlier than they have ever had, and they still strive for a further intensification of deadliness. We can conclude that it is impossible for any species to be intelligent without coming to understand the meaning of competition, to foresee the dangers of losing out in competition, to develop an indefinite number of material things and immaterial abstractions over which to compete, and to develop weapons of increasing power that will help them compete. Consequently , when the time comes where the weapons the intelligent species develops are so powerful and destructive that they outstrip the capacity of the species to recover and rebuild - the civilization automatically comes to an end."(Isaac,Azimov. Exraterrestrial Civilizations p 211)Besides the Book of Revelation as our guide and warning we can be sure that God will destroy any "foolishness" (1 Cor.3:19) that gets in His way or purpose with this world and universe.I don't believe it will be a relatively soft "tap on the wrist", as in "confusing languages"(Gen.11:9).

We have got Pentecost Week coming up in March or April OF 2021 -virus permitting- but these thoughts are greatly appreciated and should prove most relevant and useful indeed. Thank you very much.

Of course one should read read the section pertaining to the unjust judge.If I repeat a comment already made here I apologetiese. However Leon Morris offers this interpretation of verse 8 "Vindication will be done speedily ,but we should understand this in terms of God's time (in which one day is as a thousand years...2Pet.3:8)...When He asks whether the Son of man will find faith on earth, he is not suggesting that there will be no believers.He is saying that the characteristic of the world's people at that time will not be faith.Men of the world never recognize the ways of God and they will not see His vindication of His elect."(Morris,Tyndale New Testament Commentaries.Luke.263-264) As far as the Church is concerned Norval Geldenhuys offers this view "But the serious question is whether, according to His promises, the faithful are going to persevere in faith,so that when Jesus , the Son of Man, will come in glory He will find on earth real faith in Him and His promises.This question by no means implies that at Christ's coming the Christian church will no longer exist- for He says expressly (verse 7) that God's own elect will still continually be praying to Him that justice should be done to them.No:His question (verse 8b) is intended as a warning that believers should take heed not to let their faith waver, notwithstanding His apparent delay in coming So He concludes the parable with a powerful summons to His followers to maintain true belief in Him, through whom the Father will give final victory."(Geldenhuys. The New London Commentary on the New Testament.The Gospel of Luke.447)

Of course there could be many interpretations with regard to vv 23 and 23 and after digging about a bit, I find this explanation by David Guzik quite acceptable in that it all seems to boil down to faith in God's promises no matter what comes our way .Guzik writes "3. (Exo_5:22-23) Moses complains about the problem to God. So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Lord, why have You brought trouble on this people? Why is it You have sent me? For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in Your name, he has done evil to this people; neither have You delivered Your people at all.” a. Lord, why have You brought trouble on this people? Moses is good in his example of boldly pouring out his heart to God; but he fell short in remembering God’s promise. b. Neither have You delivered Your people at all: Back at the burning bush, God said: But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go. (Exo_3:19-20) As far as God is concerned, everything is moving according to plan. i. Even though God warned Moses, it seems he hoped it would all come easy. Moses wished that he would ask, Pharaoh would say “yes” and God would be glorified. Why else would Moses say to God, neither have You delivered Your people at all? c. Why is it You have sent me? In this tough time, the same old fears came crashing in on Moses: “I’m not the man God should send.” “God won’t come through.” “Pharaoh and the Egyptians are too strong.” There was still unbelief and lack of focus on God that had to be cleared out of Moses. i. “The agony of soul through which Moses passed must have been as death to him. He died to his self-esteem, to his castle-building, to pride in his miracles, to the enthusiasm of his people, to everything that a popular leader loves. As he lay there on the ground alone before God, wishing himself back in Midian, and thinking himself hardly used, he was falling as a grain of wheat into the ground to die, no longer to abide alone, but to bear much fruit.” (Meyer) ii. Moses probably thought that the dying to himself was finished after 40 years of tending sheep in Midian, but it wasn’t. It never is. God still will use adversity to train us to trust in Him until the day we go to be with Him in heaven."(Guzik.David.e-Sword.softonic.com2018.Web.

Of course the original meaning and inspiration behind the melody and lyrics from what I have read, is that he dedicated it to his little son who fell from a balcony in the high rise flat and obviously was lost.Looking at Eric's history and the way the record industry boosted him and the popularity that he achieved ,virtually affording him "divine status" with graffiti such a "Clapton is God" ect.,one can imagine that the loss of his son "brought him to his senses"(Lk.15:17) as a remorseful father, away from a materialistic world where the world only knows your "name" when you mean "money"! If drugs and alkohol is what it takes "prince of this world"(Jn 12;31) will say; "tell someone who cares"!Of course we don't really know what our normal human relationships will be like when we enter heaven as children saved, considering " 29.Jesus replied, 'You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.30.At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage, they will be like angels in heaven."(N.I.V.Mt 22:29-30). Songs like paintings mean different things to different people. Therefore I believe it totally acceptable to allegories on the literal intention behind the song and view it as Christ not "knowing" a particular individual in terms of shepherd and sheep example above. Also in this context , "32 Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in Heaven"(Mt 10:32-33)

Indeed God's idea of wisdom is miles different to ou fleshy notion of wisdom, eg "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, all those who practice it have a good understanding.His praise endures forever."English Standard Version. Ps.111:10)Also "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.,and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight."(Prov.9:10).Therefore the result will always be "18 You should not fool yourself. If any of you think that you are wise by this world's standards, you should become a fool, in order to be really wise. 19 .For what this world considers to be wisdom is nonsense in God's sight. As the scripture says, "God traps the wise in their cleverness"; 20.and another scripture says, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless." (cf Job 5:13 my insert)"(T.E.V.Good News Bible.1 Cor.3:18-20)

I think we should look at the historical context of this prophecy.Isaiah is addressing the Northern Kingdom and Judah before they are destroyed and exiled by the Babylonians ,Assyrians ect. around 791-715 according to Thiele's regnal dates.I is quite obvious that wars take its toll on the male population for example in WWI the French lost approximately I million males, Germany I million and the English 1/2 million.I suppose the USA also lost many when they entered War. To be left without any male support and not having any children to carry the family or tribal name was a great shame back in the days of the OT e.g.Ex:21:10.Isaiah is pointing to these ramifications where seduction and attraction would be useless "Isa. 3:16) where there would be few males to seduce.The situation would leave women begging for basic needs such as food and clothing.This would lead a situation against the will of God as read in Gen 3.The reference to "that day" in Isa 3:7,18;4:1 could also have a multi -fulfillment beyond the fall on Samaria and Judah, to the Tribulation(Revelation) as well, according to many students.Relying on materialistic things and people's opinions instead of relying God's will, seems to be the big lesson here.

I believe we are predestined because as it is written "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"(N,I.V. Jer.1 .5)We as Christians are also therefore predestined by God by His grace, to obey His calling to us as individuals.He is after all infinite.There is nothing that he does not know! And that includes mortal you and me.

For sure we have a little ensemble with two guitars and a bass guitar.We haven't got together for some time now but when we do I play the classical guitar and arrange the accompaniment instruments.The whole idea is to over back ground music about a half hour before the actual service begins to keep the folks "busy" as it were.During the actual service we would play with organ backtracks because the traditional pipe organist of years back ,is virtually extinct around these parts.We try and stick to well known classical pieces for the classical guitar eg. Bach''s Cantata 147 "Jesus Joy mens Desiring", Beethoven's "Fur Elize",Romance and various pieces by Matteo Carcassi and Fernando Sor, from the early 1800's early Romantic Period.There are of course many other pieces quite suitable for the occasion. In my most humble opinion ,it is a great opportunity for any classical musician to stay on the top of his or her game especially, seen in the light that actual concert recitals are very rare for most classical players nowadays, unless you are very very famous.So for a violinist, or any instrument for that matter go for it an get as much match practice as possible and what better opportunity to present your God given gift in His service a "living sacrifice" Rom 12:1.It is amazing what a bit of imagination can do in the Arts where "there are no rules, only possibilities" (See Stanley Yates "J.S.Bach:Six Unaccompanied Cello Suits Arranged for Guitar.) for instance.I am sure you will be able to put something together with all the music and scores, freely available on the site in most cases.

That is why we are fortunate to have lexicons like "Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries" easily obtainable free on line.There many programs out there today helping those who have not been fortunate enough to learn Greek and Hebrew but nevertheless do help to overcome difficulties in Scriptural interpretation.Just as their are many good Lawyers and Legal practitioners out there who get by without actually studied Latin Grammar but use Latin Dictionaries , so there are many Christians both Biblically and un-Biblically trained, who strive to learn the meaning and will of God as revealed in the Bible by means of Bible Dictionaries,and other sources.I believe limiting our Christian salvation to an ability to be proficient in any language (eg.Hebrew ) is not crucial to our salvation. After all, according to my understanding, Christ spoke "Aramaic". A Persian language! Late Edit .Sorry I forgot these verses in support of the above , "28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you are Christ's. then you are Abraham's offspring , heirs according to promise."(English Standard Version.Gal.3:28-29)

A very helpful book which I read on the above discussion in general, is by Kurt Koch (Th.D)called "Demonology Past and Present" He addresses many of the points raised here so far .A quick perusal of its context; should explain what I mean. "1.Christian Couseling and Occultism 2. Demonololgy, Past Past and Present. 3. Mediumistic Powers, Natural Powers and Spiritual Gifts 4.Occult Subjection,the Neglect Factor in Mental Illnesses 5. Miracles of Healing Today- Their Biblical, Suggestive or Demonic Character 6.Demon Possession and Deliverance."(Koch, Kurt. .Demonology,Past and Present .Kregel.Grand Rapids.1973) One could possibly Google around a bit and find it in pdf . Maybe a freebie even.Its in very plain and simple read nothing too academic or technical, in my humble opinion.The bottom line being that Satan also has the power to heal, but on his terms, according to Koch.We must bear in mind "pseudo- Christianity" is easy pickings for him and his buddies .Peter's caution remains a consistent reminder "8.Be self-controlled and alert.Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.9.Resist him. standing firm in the faith,because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings."(N,I.V.Disciple Study Bible.(I Pet.5:8-9).Also not without good reason "10.Let no one be found among you...who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft. 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.12.Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord,..."(Deut.18:10-11)

I go along with the early Church Fathers in their selection of the accepted canon .They had to sift through a lot of "nice tries" riding on the ticket of the original Disciples.Works like "Gospel Thomas" and even "Judas Iscariot" and many other counterfeits also found in caves such as "Nag Hamadi Discoveries".Most of them attacking the reality of Christ's resurrection and downplaying His role as the true "Messiah".Although there are other books or letters which I would consider as "Scripture", depending on one's denominational beliefs such as the apocrypha e.g. 1 Esdras; 2 Esdras,Tobit, Judith,The Wisdom of Solomon, The Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach, or Ecclesiasticus (not Eccesiasties we know),Baruch .Also The Song of the three Holy Children;History of Susanna...1 Maccabees;2 Maccabees.That then pertaining to the O.T. which many reputable theologians like Calvin quote from in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" also many modern expositors or commentators as well especially when one seeks more insight into the customs of a particular cult in the O.T. However ,Poulet's Bible goes on to tell us that "The primary meaning of apocrypha,' hidden, secret,' seems , toward the close of the second century, to have been associated with the signification 'spurious,'and ultimately to have settled down into the latter.The separate books of this collection are treated of in distinct articles.2.New Testament Apocrypha.-A collection of legendary and spurious Gospels,Acts of the Apostles, and Epistles.They are so entirely inferior to the genuine books, so full of nonsensical and unworthy stories of Christ and the apostles, that they have never been regarded as divine, or bound up in our Bibles..."(Peloubet's Bible Dictionary.Zondervan. Grand Rapids.1967). It is also generally accepted by most scholars that when we speak of "Scriptures" then the assumption is the O.T.Bearing in mind that in the days of Christ and the early church all they had were the scrolls and oral teachings not the Bible we have today.

Even with this plague we are experiencing internationally, Its hard to believe that there are those among us humans who still continue to pit their will against that of God and not accept the sacrifice of His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, (Mt 17:5).Of cause there have been other plagues as well e.g Black Death, but in the context of this discussion and the amount of casualties one hears about on a daily basis, with modern communication as it stands,I would not be too surprised if God's "long suffering"(2 Pet.3:9) with hard headed folks who refuse to repent and fall in line with Christ has not ,has run its course. It believe it highly probable that God's punishment has moved to the next level as far as mankind is concerned.Of course some will refuse to accept and believe in spite of the warnings "15.And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month...were released to kill a third of mankind...18.A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire,smoke and sulphur that came out of their mouths ...20. The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues(my bold) still did not repent of the work of their hands:they did not stop worshiping demons:,and idols of gold,silver ...21.Nor did they repent of their murders,their magic arts,their sexual immorality or their thefts."(N.I.V.Rev.9:15-21) I believe a virus like "Covert 19" could well fall within the Greek meaning of "Plague" meaning" G4127 πληγή plēgē play-gay' From G4141; a stroke; by implication a wound; figuratively a calamity: - plague, stripe, wound (-ed).(Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries.).My plea therefore, is why test God's patience?

I am busy looking and walking through Revelation,considering all the different views of various expositors.My intention is to discover how much in Revelation are we actually experiencing at this moment.A verse which got my red lights flashing is "Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet."(N.I.V. Rev.16:13). As already pointed out on this thread each to his own while walking through this "forest".There is no doubt that there are many "theologians" who would qualify as symbolical "frogs"if we consider the slimy,slippery,creepy way they twist the truth of God's Word just as the Gnostics did in the days of the primitive church. In the days of Exodus, Ramses was bugged with literal frogs .Today we sit with symbolical "frogs" from local church to sinode level, it would seem.Please forgive me if I am merely stating the obvious.

With all respect I think it's all pretty clear that most folks here know that the Holy Spirit sees right through all of us who are believers.There is nothing we can hide from God our Father who is well aware of our strengths and weaknesses and our sincerity in correcting our sinful nature, simply because "12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword,it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit,joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitude of the heart.13.Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight.Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."(N.IV. Heb.4:12-13). On the positive side regarding the intention behind this post a good reminder to some of us might indeed forget that Christ is well aware of our deeds and thoughts and possibly do fall into the meaning of "for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God."(Rev 3:2b). I would understand this in the light of "if the shoe fits" .And yes these are questions which we must continually ask ourselves as we walk with Christ, not so much whether others are or are not sincere or not.All will come out in the wash.

Amen to that!

I believe according to Du Rand (Die A-Z van Openbaring 231)it to be a strong possibility of a combination of those elders and priests the Old Testament and New Testament apostles : Gen 21:12-13.Or the 24 in I Ch.24:4-5 "4.A larger number of leaders were found among Eleazar's descendants than among Ithamar's, and they were divided accordingly:sixteen heads of families from Eleazar's descendants and eight heads of families from Ithamar's descendants. 5 They divided them impartially by drawing lots..."This being the 24 divisions of musicians and the descendants of Levi. It is felt that "The key to an appropriate choice lies in the Greek word presbuteroi .Where the 24 elders are associated with people or church of God, 12 OT Tribes and 12 NT apostles."(Du Rand 232) Of course these are only possibilities one can't be too overly sure one way or the other.I would go along with George and take it as it is written and accept it as such, and wait till all is revealed in God's own good time.

Well whatever , I'm happy with the "James Gang" mask/s my Wife makes for me.She is really into quilting, so you can imagine what I look like when I walk into the local general dealer in our small country town.I hope the creations don't get too radical , to the point where a S.W.AT. team has to be placed on a defcon level 1 crime prevention alert.

I believe God can do anything but we must still face the consequences of our sin or crime, as in "39.One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, 'Are you not the Christ?Save yourself and us!'40 But the other rebuked him saying, Do you not fear God,since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?41.And we indeed justly , for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds,but this man has done nothing'42 And he said,Jesus ,remember me when you come into your kingdom.'43 And he said to him, Truly ,I say to you,today you will be with me in Paradise."(ESV.Lk.23:39-42).They still had to face the music for what they had done regardless of the fact that one was forgiven ,although I am not so sure whether or not, the one that rebuked Christ was.The Bible does not say as far as I Know.

Although difficult for our finite minds to fully comprehend generally,that is how it is.