DonkeySpeaksAgain

Careful about judging interpretations of prophecy... teaching others that Dan 9:27 is about the AntiChrist is VERY unbiblical and replaces Jesus with Satan. Your house is also made of glass just like the ones you are throwing stones at.

Sorry, I understand what you are saying, but all that was essentially saying a lot without actually saying anything. I would say most on this forum can agree with what you wrote, but the question not answered is "what do you mean by 'obeying'?" The question always returns to this basic thought. Our Church doctrines determine and mold our responses to speaking about "works" in relation to faith. The problem I see is that "obedience" is either attached to religious actions (works) or spiritual belief (faith) without ever even considering that it is something else altogether. On both sides of the "Faith Alone" and "faith plus works" issue, the key words appear to just not be clearly defined or even understood by the teachers themselves. Have you ever realized how there are many sermons given and yet few if any will actually define what "faith" is? Not in any of your churches, of course.

What about the UN or the Vatican? Why assume it refers to an embassy? The "BEAST" of prophecy WAS (existing in the first century) and WILL BE (existing in the last days), SO... the "Beast" is NOT a person but rather an entity (a group of some sort). Now, the leader of the beast will be a person (the A/C). All that said, the USA is NOT the beast.

Yes, "labels" create a great deal of confusion. I too agree that when the Bible says "great tribulation" it is referring to the "Church Age". The subject of this discussion is still Dan. 9:27. The 70th week began at the baptism, but I don't think just because the 70th week was cut in half that there will still be ANOTHER 70th week (or full 7 years) before the "end". Revelation CANNOT be logically broken down and tied together without encountering contradictions with the timeline. Every time a "timeframe" is given it is ALWAYS ONLY 3.5 years. The 3.5 years remaining of the 70th week (which was cut short with the Dan. 9:27 Holy Week) makes the most sense when seen as applying to the Jews (the rest of the 70th week). The "break" or gap (Church Age) began with the "interruption" of the Holy Week. It is marked by the resurrection of Jesus and it is intriguing to me to attach the "resurrection of the Church" (Rapture) to the END of it - which will ALSO mark the BEGINNING of the continuation of the 70th week (final 3.5 years). With the Church gone (most of it - we hope) the focus of Revelation then goes BACK to the Jews. Their "blindness" will NOT be removed until the END of the 70th week. I don't see another 3.5 years AFTER the 2nd coming. I do see, however, an additional 45 days to allow for the bowl judgments. Anyway, I remember considering the possibility of placing Jesus' return at the start of the "final tribulation" (I prefer this label instead of "great tribulation") but was not able to maintain the integrity of the timeline. Some contradictions prevented me from accepting or staying with that line of thinking. Initially, the 144K are said to "follow him wherever he goes" and that began the thought for me. Can't remember right now all the problems that caused me to back away, but would listen to your thoughts if you wish to write them down.

Quite alright, It may even have been one of your posts that gave me the "eureka" moment of realizing Dan. 9:27 concerns the holy week and NOT the 70th week? As I just said to Montana, I think all the evidence points to NO 7 year treaty, and NO 7 year tribulation, and that discussion among pre-mill people should be centered around a 3.5 year tribulation. I feel great harm would be done to those in that 3.5 year tribulation if all available literature talks about 7 years with the A/C appearing after 3.5 years. Imagine when Jesus returns at that point? WOW

You said this is my second or third view? How do you figure? I have always maintained there is NO 7 year tribulation. Daniel 9:27 has always been intriguing to me and I have long understood it to be the KEY verse to understanding Revelation. Yes, I have posted/written under the FALSE understanding of accepting Dan 9:27 as referring to a 7 YEAR time frame, and now I see it as being "THE 7 DAY PERIOD" of which ALL prophecy hinges - the Holy Week of the cross. SO you have never come to the understanding that you have believed something that turned out later to be not quite right? Now, there is NO Biblical evidence for the A/C making a peace treaty. NO Biblical evidence for a 7 year tribulation. The entire Pre-Millennial argument must be centered on this truth. The debate can/will continue about rapture positioning, but it must be around a 3.5 year tribulation, NOT 7. The conclusion was that Daniel 9:27 is actually referring to a one "week" period of 7 DAYS (NOT years). It does NOT change my outline, I still believe the 70th week is already HALF fulfilled and there are ONLY 3.5 years remaining for the Jews and the left-behind (not the obedient Church)- all of which are portrayed in Revelation. The "covenant" spoken of is now even more solidly in my mind to be referring to Jesus and NOT the A/C. The baptism occurs at the END of the 69th week (start of the 70th) and on a Jubilee Year and is all solidly corroborated by the Jewish Calendar, the NT, and history itself. Another poster has a quote at the bottom of each post that reads something like "an honest man will change his opinion when it is proven wrong". I don't believe I have witnessed a single person on this site (or any other) actually have his/her mind/opinion changed concerning something 'major' based on one posting. What about you? Sure, small minor issues which don't really affect anything else, but have you ever changed your view or position on something "major" after "debating" all these years? All I ever wanted was the truth, even if it means abandoning long-held assumptions. And there are MANY assumptions accepted and repeated by professors, pastors, teachers, and prophets without much reproof if any at all. I have said this before, and I will say it again now... I thank the owner(s) of this forum because it does NOT restrict or prevent people of different 'labels' from putting forth their arguments. By labels, I mean categories like pre, mid and post. I too hope there are "more" epiphanies to come. If they continue, I'll know that Scripture is molding my interpretation instead of the other way around.

One key thing in all of this is that the AoD was mentioned (for the final and last time in prophecy) way back in verse 31. That covers a LOT of time and suggests that the A/C "moving to Jerusalem" also occurs LATER (or AFTER) the AoD and NOT before. Many teach that the AoD occurs AFTER the A/C goes to Jerusalem to kick off the supposed 7 year tribulation and even place the AoD in the midpoint of that supposed 7 years? The A/C ONLY has power for 3.5 years. Dan. 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. Now, "Who are the people in verses 32-35?" The covenant mentioned goes back to verse 22 when the "prince of the covenant" is killed. Following the logical flow of the historical Roman context in these verses, one should be able to see the first century depicted here quite plainly. The cross in verse 22, the AoD in 70ad along with the destruction of the temple. Then, the "Christians" during the "Church Age" up to the "time of the end". Verses 36-39 then are directed at the A/C and/or the "Beast" kingdom. That leaves the "time of the end" from verse 40 onward. The time frame given in Daniel 12 is ONLY 3.5 years. My thoughts on what must occur FIRST ... I think the one thing that would trigger the "end" is making Jerusalem the "capital of the World" or something like that. To me, it seems to be the only viable "solution" that would be acceptable by all the different people involved.

???? What do you mean by "two"? It is much clearer now that the entire prophecy can be understood as referring to Jesus and NOT the A/C! Dan. 9:27 refers to the ONE FINAL week (7 days) of Jesus' ministry. NO 7 year covenant with the Beast, AND NO 7 year tribulation!

Sorry Brother, but I have NEVER taken the position (on this forum nor anytime after 2012) that there is still 7 years remaining of the 70 weeks prophecy. I have been very consistent about proclaiming the "gap" as being in the midpoint of the 70th week - thus ONLY 3.5 years remaining - just like it says in Revelation and everywhere else in the Bible.

Just verified for myself that there are 11 "names" used as the title of NT books. The twelveth? The Revelation of JESUS. Also, have you noticed in Enoch when he wrote about "days" (I think it was 10?) of prophecy. With one day = 1000 years, we can see how Jesus is portrayed on day 6 (if I remember correctly). Day 9 covers the Millennium and day 10 the 'ever after'. So, that leaves 2000 years from the cross to the millennium.

"John" has long been assumed to mean "loved by God". Anyway, pretty much everyone's name can be broken down in the same way. Parent's generally speaking, will always choose good positive names for their children. Few would choose names like "Apollyon" or "Destroyer" or "Satan". All that said, it is quite interesting just the same.

Thank You ALL for responding to this thread. NOW... Let me start by saying "I HAVE HAD AN EPIPHANY!" How could something so plainly written NOT be understood JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN? My apologies to everyone for not seeing this earlier and for accepting the false assumption which has led to all the debating and confusion. What am I talking about? The "assumption" that Daniel 9:27 is about the last 7 years of the '70 weeks prophecy'. Yes, it mentions "one week (seven)", BUT that one week does NOT have to be "years" as in the 70th week. Jesus does confirm/strengthen/make the "New Covenant" in that ONE WEEK (7 days of the 'Holy Week'). He enters Jerusalem on Sunday, cleanses the temple, last supper, cross, & resurrection ALL in ONE WEEK. Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Jesus confirms the covenant "with many", put an end to the need for sacrifices, and for continuing 'abominations' (unnecessary sacrifices) He destroys the temple which remains desolate UNTIL the 'completion' (2nd coming). So simple!!!

You seem to have forgotten that BOTH the wise and the foolish HAD oil, the difference was that the foolish "did not have enough oil". They were lacking something that the wise had MORE of. The solution was for the foolish to "go to the marketplace to "buy" more of whatever the "oil" represents. There are many Bible verses pertaining to oil, so a debate on the subject is very likely. For me, oil in this context is for the lamp - to keep the light burning. The lamp is also a key component to look at. ALL 10 virgins did have a lamp and ALL 10 were also referred to as "virgins". All these components would take many pages to cover fully, so in answer to your rejection of the sentence regarding the foolish virgins not being the Jews - I must point out that ONLY the 144K Jews accept Jesus at the start of the tribulation. This acceptance is the "faith" which is portrayed in the "lamp" but the 144K are not described as carrying lamps or connected to lamps in any way in Revelation. Rev. 1 explains the lamp as being a symbol of our faith (the Christians). The Jewish people DO accept Jesus but NOT until the end of the tribulation period. I too believe the Holy Spirit may be the "oil" spoken of here, but then we get into the issue of "how do we get more?" John 1 2:20 "But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge." implies that knowledge is imperative in all of this. Knowledge is gained through Scripture and it appears the foolish are either lacking knowledge or more likely following false teachings about the Scriptures. The 144K are NOT the "Church" because the Church is no longer here when the 144K are "marked" at the start of the tribulation. MEAT... "in due season" references knowledge and understanding of Scripture (more precisely prophecy). Bible verses on this imply that the "end-times" shepherds (church/religious leaders) were NOT telling their followers about the time in which they were living. In other words, correctly identifying that they are the final generation. Sure, no one knows when the rapture occurs, but we certainly CAN and SHOULD know when it is very near. The end of Luke 12 parallels the Matthew verses and I hope anyone reading this will read through it. The phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will ALWAYS be used in reference to the tribulation BEFORE the 2nd coming NOT the judgments AFTER it! (Very important to understand this) 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? "Milk" is given to babies because they cannot YET handle solid food (meat). New believers are babies surviving on the milk of faith. This is seen in the verses that follow and summarized in... 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. It seems to me that "meat" refers to Obedience in faith, faith is the foundation on which the temple is built, but the walls are built (brick by brick) by our obedience. The "WOOD, HAY AND STUBBLE" (worthless works - probably religious works) in verse 12 are what gets "burned up", while the "GOLD, SILVER, AND PRECIOUS STONES" (righteous obedience) are "refined/purified" by that same fire.

וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ How can this be translated? Can it be Committee - bride?

So, what about the phrase וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ ? Can this be translated as committee of the bride? If so, it would replace the word "consummation".

Matt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins The key is the word "then" and what is happening at this time. We must go back to the end of chapter 24 to find out... 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. What event catches everyone by surprise? The 2nd coming will NOT be unpredictable, in fact if someone studies prophecy correctly they will KNOW the very DAY of His arrival based on the two witnesses account described in Revelation. So, what event could it possibly be? Notice how Noah "entered the ark" but still had to wait for the flood! When the flood actually came, that was when the door was sealed and could NOT be opened except by God. Chapter 24 continues... 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. So, we see two people working together but only one is taken while leaving the other. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Now, we see the "WISE" servants described - apparently they are given "MEAT" or true teaching. This coincides with other Scripture concerning "milk" - we can go into all that another time. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Finally, the "FOOLISH" servants are described. They are under false teachings even to the point of "eating and drinking" with the drunken (whatever could that be referring to? - Rhetorical). The phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will ALWAYS refer to the tribulation period right before the 2nd coming in ALL PROPHECIES! Now, we have the point of which chapter 25 begins - the Rapture. The wise and foolish virgins ALL had lamps and ALL had at least some oil, but ONLY half of them were accepted for the 'reward' of obedience = the rapture. For further evidence, look at verse 10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." The "door was shut". When is the door shut? At the rapture.... but, when was the door opened? Rev3 depicts the Church Age as having an open door. John 10 says it 4 times. Acts 14:27 "and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles." Rev. 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven:" (START OF THE CHURCH AGE) Furthermore, the foolish virgins CANNOT be the Jews, because they will NOT accept Jesus until the very end of the tribulation (the acceptance will be the trigger that brings Jesus back). The parallel of this is seen in Luke 12:42-47 (faithful, wise servant versus the foolish one).

The three questions posed by the apostles were the reason for the entire discourse. 1) When will the temple be destroyed? 2) What will be the sign of your coming(return)? And, 3) What will be the sign of the end of the world? The Apostles (Christians) asked the questions - so, the answer(s) are directed at Christians. The word "elect" only arises in the context of "shortening the days of tribulation". I too agree that the "elect" are the Jews, but, the context of Isa 26 & 66 are the start of the Millenium while the context of Matt 24 and 25 is the time from the first century up to the 2nd coming.

A sincere question - I had a thought and would like to discuss it openly. Could it be that the "removal of sacrifice" as described in prophetic verses be attached somehow to the Rapture in addition to the Cross as the 'bookends' of the Church Age? Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (committee-bride), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The cross occurs halfway through the 70th week, Jesus is removed, the Church Age BEGINS, the Church Age ENDS with the rapture and the remainder of the 70th week begins. Below, could it be describing the Church and/or Jesus? Daniel 8: 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Prophecy is the ROOT of our 'theology'. How we interpret Scripture encompasses what prophecy IS. How the individual interprets the fulfillment of Scripture will determine his/her theology. Unfortunately, people develop theology first - THEN attempt to interpret Scripture BASED on that theology. Scripture is "from God" while theology comes from "man". When the two are at odds with each other - modern 'experts' will go out of the way to protect and defend their theology over and above Scripture even when Scripture itself gives us the interpretation. You also seem to be asking a separate question concerning "prophets" or people who predict future events (fortunetellers)? I believe this site will not allow anyone to say anything negative about someone who "has a vision or dream" or "hears a voice in their head"? Like the Bereans, we must study Scripture for ourselves and compare what someone says with God's Word. It (and time) are the FINAL say in the matter.

Not at all!!! I am fighting a similar fight against those who are replacing the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy as being fulfilled by the A/C. My point, in this case, is that the Hebrew words MAY (?) be translated as "committee of the bride". In which case it would point to the "rapture" in this part of the sentence instead of (I think it is commonly said to say) "consummation"? I believe you seem to be knowledgeable about the Hebrew language (as well as many others on this platform) and could possibly look closer at this without pre-conceived ideas about what it says. If anybody else wants to weigh in on this, please do. It would be greatly appreciated.

Zech 13??? Sure, it points to the 2nd coming but I don't see the "anointing" - only the acceptance of Jesus which will end the rebellion/transgression. I just posted more on this topic so I won't repeat it again.

?????????? Can't this be translated as "committee - bride"?

Shalom, Of course, they WILL accept Jesus BEFORE the end of the 'week', BUT The actual anointing has already been done. John the Baptist was a true prophet of God and one could argue that a primary purpose for his baptisms was to reveal the Messiah. Accepting Jesus is associated with the "end of transgression" as outlined below... Encyclopedias - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Transgression "TRANSGRESSION trans-gresh'-un: From "transgress," to pass over or beyond; to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing; the violation of a law or known principle of rectitude; breach of command; offense; crime; sin. In the Old Testament pesha`, occurs 80 times, rendered in all versions by "transgression." Its meaning is "rebellion". The word "rebellion" differs from this word in that it may be in the heart, though no opportunity should be granted for its manifestation: "An evil man seeketh only rebellion" (Proverbs 17:11). David Roberts Dungan" The "rebellion" (or 'transgression') of refusing to accept Jesus as the promised Messiah ENDS in the FUTURE at the END of the 70th week. Interesting that it is listed FIRST, while the "anointing" is listed LAST - but the anointing actually occurs FIRST. The second and third stipulations say they must "make an end of sins" AND "make reconciliation for iniquity". While the case can be made through using NT teaching that "sin" remains ONLY for as long as unbelief remains,... the idea that reconciliation (payment for sin) is also made in the same way cannot be accepted. The cross (the ONLY acceptable payment for ALL sin) occurs at the midpoint of the 70th week and marks the START of the "transgression". The point is, where is this "Anointing" shown in Revelation (or OT prophecies)? The only anointing of Jesus seen in prophecy comes at the START of the 70th week (when Jesus is baptized). I find it interesting to read the six stipulations backwards and see the fulfillment in that way as well. 6) the anointing (baptism - start of the 70th week) 5) sealing up vision and prophecy ('hiding' the Messiah from the Jews) 4) bring in everlasting righteousness (presenting the Gospel) (this can be seen as happening at the end of the 70th week, but the problem with that is ALL prophecy DOES NOT end at the START of the millennium - everlasting righteousness is NOT seen in prophecy until possibly the very end of the millennium, so, within the context of the 70 weeks, we must conclude it is referring to something else - something 'Spiritual' rather than physical) 3) make reconciliation for iniquity (the cross) 2) make an end of sin (faith in Jesus - as represented by the Church Age) 1) finish the transgression (Jews finally accept Jesus = end of tribulation period)(The ONLY 'thing' left for the Jews or the city to accomplish is the acceptance of Jesus)

וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ committee of the bride

Acts 10: 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power As you have said... These six task are all for Israel to fulfill and or receive. Although it is actually the "people" and/or the city of Jerusalem that are to "accomplish" them. Jesus is Jewish and even though it happened outside the city (and the Jewish nation still rejects Him), it still counts as fulfillment of "anoint the most holy".