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  1. Here is a tract I made to hand out about this topic file:///Users/downey/Desktop/God's%20Order%20tract%20for%20print.pdf
  2. Hello and God bless. No I have been working at planting churches in homes for about 30 years. It has been a wonderful journy. Difficult at times.But wonderful. God bless
  3. Hello and God bless, Hope to get into many wonderful discussions in the truth. How do i post in the regular forum and respond to post?
  4. Just wondering how I post a response to other topics in different threads? and how long does it take to do so thanks
  5. The Pastor King The Exalted Pastor Over All As shocking as this may seem, there is not one verse in the New Testament that speaks of a man over all the church called, “The Pastor”, who does most of the ministry, gets a regular salary and who acts as the head of the church. Rather, in the New Testament, we see the whole church ministering to one another in Christ who works effectually in all believers (Eph 4:11-16 , 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11) and we read of elders (plural) in every church (singular) who watch over and feed others spiritually (Acts 14:23, James 5:14, 1 Peter 5:1,2). They are not to Lord over others and control them in a supreme authority but are to be examples. Paul said to the church, “Not that we have dominion over your faith but are helpers ..” (2 Cor. 1:24). The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller. By implication, Master (as in official title..)...” (Strongs Concordance. # 2961). Jesus also warned of such a false dominion and authority over others (Matthew 20:25-27), and said “it shall not be so among you”. Yet in many gatherings today, this person called “The Pastor”, is exalted above all others as he stands on top a large platform behind a “pulpit”. He is the one who dominates and has preeminence over all others and does most of the speaking week after week. He generally rules in a large castle-like structure unbiblically called “the church” with lower ranked servants under him. Sometimes he has a sign outside with his name on it. Many flattering titles are given to him such as, “Reverend”, “Master of Divinity”, or “President”, and he uses expressions such as “My church” or “My people”. Scripture warns against one man in and exalted role having the preeminance over all in the church (3 John 9,10, 2 Cor 11:12,13,20, Acts 20:29-31, Col 2:8, Job 32:31,32) and Jesus said “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ” (Matt. 23:8,10). Almost all of the activities in the assembly today are controlled by the Pastor and no one is permitted to speak or minister unless he allows it. There is rarely opportunity for anyone else to minister as Christ leads, for they are not on the man made programs in man’s order. Many are unaware of their freedoms in the body of Christ and even if they were, they would be afraid to speak as God leads them, fearing the disapproval and rebuke of the pastor. Many dangerously look to this one man alone for all their spiritual guidance in the assembly, rather than wait on God and to be led by the Spirit in mutual edification of one another in God’s order. The Modern Pastoral Role is Unbiblical The position that the modern Pastor holds today is unbiblical. It fights against the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rom. 12:1), the mutual edification of one another in the body of Christ as He leads, (1 Cor. 14:26-38, 1 Cor 12:7, 1 Peter 4:10, 11, Col. 3:15,16, Eph. 4:16) and it hinders Gods direct leading and working in all believers in the church (Heb. 13:20,21, 1 John 2:27, Eph 4:16,21, Col 3:15,16). The role of the modern Pastor over all often quenches the spirt in the rest of the body and hinders the very function and growth of the church. This modern role of “The Pastor” today, sets him up to reign as a king (or Lord) over the body of Christ and exalts him (2 Cor. 11:12,20, Rom 12:3-5). His position as head of the church can usurp the headship of Christ in the meetings (Col 2:8, 19) and bind up the saints in the traditions and commandments of men that turn from the truth and fight against the commandments of the Lord (1 Cor 14:26-38, Col 2:8,19, Titus 1:14). Paul warned us of such serious things and said, “Beware, lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ” (Col. 2:8). The word ”spoil” implies, leading believers away and robbing them of their goods. The one modern pastor tradition does this in part and makes the word of God of no effect by this role (Mark 7:13). These controlling men don’t allow believers to edify one another in the gatherings as they are commanded to do in scripture and hinder them from being good stewards of their gifts from God (1 Cor 14:26,30,37, 38 1 Peter 4:10,11). But If any man reject God’s commands to do so they are ignorant and should not be listened to and withdrawn from (1 Cor 14:26,30,37, 2 Thess. 3:6). If anyone examines scripture closely they will see that this modern Pope-like figure called the “The Pastor “ today does not come from scripture but rather comes out of the worldly traditions of men, mixed with an OT priesthood and pagan traditions. It stems from the (so called) “church fathers”, such as; Ignatius of Antioch, Cyprian and others, from Constantine, a false Roman Catholic hierarchy and from reformers who retained many of the Catholic priest roles and misunderstanding of Christ headship in the body ministry. Many Gifts Not Just a Pastor Gift We read in scripture that God ”...gave gifts unto men...he gave some, apostles; and some, and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”, (Ephesians 4:8,11,12) Notice that the word, “pastors” is in the plural form. We do not find the singular one man pastor over all in the New Testament. All of these gifts are needed in the body of Christ and not just pastors. But somehow through the traditions of man, this one “pastor” gift come to dominate over all the other gifts. Though there are blessed pastor giftings in the body of Christ, (just as there are apostles, prophets, evangelist and teachers), the modern role of the exalted “Pastor” over all does not exist biblically and is a dangerous distortion spiritually to the church. Many of those in this unbiblical role may be true believers and loving men with sincerity and have many good qualities, Others may be seeking their own glory and reputation. But either way they are still in error in this exalted role and they still hinder the body from functioning in Christ. Despite the confusion of many religious forms today and the multitude of believers who gather in them, with the exalted Pastor over all, their various spiritual moments, evangelistic aspects and some good ministration seen in many of these gatherings, there is still a great problem in the churches and it must be corrected and set in God’s order. We see in many assemblies today a weak, dysfunctional body that plays church and cannot follow the leading of the Spirit in the assembly as good stewards in mutual edification. Instead they are forced to look at the back of each others heads and are drawn after the exalted man on the the platform. Is Jesus Christ outside of many gatherings today knocking and wanting to come into them and to “sup” with them (Revelation 3:16-20) and to participate with them, or is He ready to spew some out of his mouth, while they think all is well and they are rich and increased with goods and need nothing. The reality is, that if this modern role of the Pastor today was taken away from most assemblies they could not function and would most likely be in a fearful panic and possibly collapse. But if you take away the modern one man Pastor role over all from a true biblical church gathering, they would still be able to use their gifts and edify one another and minister as God intended in His order. God’s Order and Man’s Order God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry and fruits of the Spirit and sets the order in the gatherings, (Titus 1:5, Col. 2:5, Psalm 37:23, Eph. 4:15,16, 1 Tim 3:15, 1 Cor. 14:26-37, 1 Cor. 11:34, Heb 13:20,21, 1 John 2:27). No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, even many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and the dominion of exalted leaders. Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s carnal mind and human wisdom, and by what they know naturally ( 1 Cor 2, Jude 1:10) and is regulated by the modern pastor role, programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world. Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along. God’s order is very different than mans order and traditions in the church. “Give us a King” There is a story in the bible where God’s people said, “Give us a King, to judge us” (1 Samuel 8:6). God allowed it, but told Samuel, “they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me that I should not reign over them” (1 Samuel 8:7). God also told Samuel to warn them that the king would bring them into bondage, take their goods and use them for his glory (1 Samuel 8:11-19). Saul also had some of the Levites killed (1 Sam. 22:17,18). The Levites being a type of the priesthood of all believers. Similarly, as Saul had them killed and they could no longer minister, so the modern one man Pastor Lord also quenches the spirit in the body and hinders or cuts off the priesthood of all believers where they can no longer minister freely. Today, similar to the story of Saul, you can almost hear the people cry, “Give us a Pastor, like all the other churches”, especially when they are looking for a new one. But by doing so, they may be rejecting God from reigning over them in the gatherings. Body Ministry to One Another The bible teaches that Christ is to lead in every part of the body as the head of the church, “From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love” (Ephesians 4:16). This is how Jesus Christ builds (or edifies) His church. Notice, that through Christ headship the whole body can edify one another, and not just rely on one man the Pastor. This should be allowed to happen every time the saints gather together in Christ and wait on the Lord. When the church comes together all can have something revealed to them and share it (1 Cor.14:30). They can also have a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation and interpretation, (1 Cor.14:26); comfort and edify one another (1 Thess. 5:11); use all their gifts as they wait on God (Rom. 12:1-10); have a spiritual manifestation to profit all (1 Cor 12:7-); admonish one another (Rom. 15:14); teach one another (Col. 3:16); exhort one another, (Heb. 3:13); warn unruly (1Thess. 5:14); confess their faults one to one another (James 5:16); anoint the sick (James 5:14); prophesy to one another (1 Cor. 14:31); discipline erring brethren (1 Cor5:3-5, 6:1-6); pray for one another (James 5:14-); lead in prayer and song (1 Cor. 14:15); have a psalm, hymn or spiritual song (Col. 3:16); any man can speak or minister as God leads (1 Peter 4:10,11). We must follow after Christ who will lead us in this way, and not follow after man-made programs and dead rituals and the exalted Pastor role that quench the Spirit.
  6. God's order in the Church God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry, fruits of the Spirit and sets the order. No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, many Christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and exalted leaders. Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s natural mind and human wisdom, and is regulated by programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world that can make the word of God of no effect. Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along. But If you ask many believers today, “how is a church built?” They may say something like, “well, first you save up money for years with a gathering, or one that meets in a school or community center and then you buy a piece of land or go into debt, hire a construction crew and you pay them to build the church building. Then you put some pews in it, build an altar and pulpit, have a Pastor over all and make a name for it, put a sign up on the lawn, register with the government and there you go, the church is ready. Then the whole assembly comes in and sit in rows facing the back of each others heads as they look forward to the exalted man on the podium, or “altar”, who gives a message to the church every week. But this is not how Jesus Christ builds his church, nor has he ever built His church this way. Christ builds his church from the inside out and this work starts from within all believers. The “church” is the body of Christ (Eph.1:22, 23) and a living organism. It is a spiritual house made up of living stones (1 Peter 2:5), which is built up in the revelation of Jesus Christ. This is the starting point of Jesus building. It is not a man made religious building or a corporation with bosses and employees. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, which is his body, he is not the head of institutions and man made forms. The Lord Builds the House In God’s order, all believers must “...grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.“ (Ephesians 4:15,16). This edifying (or building up) of one another in love is how Christ builds His Church from the inside out. In God’s order He arranges all things after His mighty working in the saints (Heb. 13:20, 21) as believers labourer together with him (1 Cor. 3:9). This order begins in the peace of God and by His rule (or governing) in the spirit (Col.3:15,16) as we wait on the Lord for ministry in the body one to another (Rom. 12:3-8). Only then can we grow up into him (Eph. 4:15). Despite the multitudes of believers who gather in these religious forms, with their various spiritual moments, the evangelistic aspects and some other good ministration seen in many of them, there is a great problem in the churches today and it must be addressed. It is still true today that, “Except the Lord build the house they labour in vain that build it” (Psalm 127:1). Many christians who gather today may seem to be rich and increased with goods and think they have need of nothing, but many are unaware that they are “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind and naked” (Rev. 3:17). Jesus said these serious words to the Church of Laodicea, but he also said, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him and he with me” (Rev. 3:20). Jesus wants to dwell in the hearts of all those who will open to him and to “sup” with them, and to participate with them in the assembly as they gather. Without this participation of the Lord among the church they are in danger. Jesus said to the Laodicean church, “I will spue thee out of my mouth.” (Rev. 3:16). Similarly, all should consider this question, “is Jesus Christ standing outside knocking or is he in the midst being able to effectually work in believers as they assemble?” For Christians to be able to function fully as the body of Christ, they need to withdraw from man’s order (2 Thess. 3:6, Rom. 16:17, Eph. 5:11) and walk in God’s order, even though this will be very hard for some. The commands of the Lord in this order were spoken of by Paul to the Corinthians when he said “...when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted... If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Cor. 14:26, 29-31, 37). Peter also spoke of this order and said, “As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Peter 4:10,11). If anyone neglects or hinders the ministration of the gifts from God to one another they will not be good stewards of the grace of God and they quench the spirit. This one aspect alone is so different than most assemblies today, where all the body is stifled and silenced by the one man pastor ministry and the commands of men, with their programed order, where all are bound up and unable to freely edify one another. Instead they are drawn to the exalted man who does most of the ministry. This is wrong and needs to change. Scripture speaks of a plurality of “elders in every church” (Acts 14:23, James 5:14 1 Peter 5:1-3). Never do we read of one man in the New Testament called “The Pastor” over all doing most of the ministry and getting a regular salary. Furthermore, we read of the church gathering in homes and having a meal together as they wait on the Lord and ministered to one another, in prayer and fellowship. The institutional church structures today with their programs and clergy, have hindered many of these functions in the church. In fact, when examining man’s order as opposed to God’s order we see that almost everything that is done today, from walking into a large building with a denominational name, called a “church”, and everything that is on man’s programed order, from the Pastor’s role over all that often quenches the spirit in others, to their “services” that do not allow the body to minister freely, with the pastors sermon, the pulpit, worship leaders, women leaders, false authority, collections, constitutional laws of man, ushers, theater type environment, salaried ministers, tithing, tax exemption rules, altars, rituals, exalted priest, the silent body ministry, show time religion, no consensus decisions and many more, are all based on the traditions of men and not after Christ. A Wise Master Builder God’s order was revealed to apostolic workers and also handed down to believers in scripture. Paul said that God made him a wise master builder (1 Cor. 3:10), to lay the foundation and to show God’s order for the churches. We see men like Timothy and Titus bringing others to remembrance of Paul’s ways in Christ (1 Cor. 4:17) and the order he handed down was for every church everywhere (1 Cor. 4:17, 1 Cor 14:33). God’s Order in Scripture “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:” (Titus 1:5). Here we see that Paul had a definite “order” for them to be in. The order Paul speaks of here was given by the command and leading of the Spirit and it was not by man’s order and wisdom, with programs and philosophies based upon traditions of men. Paul often warned christians against following man’s traditions and order and to beware of anything that was not after Christ (Col. 2:8). In writing to the Colossians Paul also said, “For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.” (Col. 2:5). This “order” among the Colossian believers was a spiritual order and Paul was able to behold it in the spirit. This is God’s order, not man’s order and to walk in this order a person must be in faith and the leading of the Spirit. No man can make this happen in their lives or in the assembly, although many try to. Paul wrote of how believers “ought” to behave in the church and said, “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15). All believers should keep this order, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thess. 2:15). Paul taught the same things “everywhere” and in “every church”. (1 Cor. 4:17). So are any churches today exempt? Why would any christian want to do anything different? “The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD...” (Psalm 37:23) This has always been God’s way. True spiritual authority flows from Christ to the body as we all live and speak the word of God. Authority is not a static position (Matt. 20:25-27), but only as we abide in Christ and are directed by Him ( John 15:5).
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