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dhchristian

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About dhchristian

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  1. dhchristian

    Maps & Charts

    This would be a great resource to have and point to, Might want to pin at the top of the forum.
  2. Birth pangs versus Conception: The difference between tribulation and Great Tribulation Having established in the first two comments above, what the early church understood of the end times, Pre-Revelation, We have established one of our navigational points. Their basis being the Olivet discourse. The chronology that is found there can be simplified by saying Birth pangs, leading to the abomination of desolation/ Great tribulation leading to the believers rescue and redemption. If all we had was the Olivet discourse, then 70 AD looks like a supreme candidate for the A of D and the Great tribulation, But we are given a second point of Navigation, and that being the Revelation given to John, which was given on the Island of Patmos around 90 AD well after the events of 70AD. Within that new Revelation we can still see this same structure, But with more details added to it, which Points to a yet future fulfillment of these events. So While the Olivet discourse has both a nearness to the events, and a distance to the events, That could be read like the Preterists and Amillennialists interpret end times, Revelation adds the futurist element to this, and clearly states that these events are pre-millennial, and yet to have their fulfillment. I Mentioned in the previous post how the birthpangs in the Olivet discourse match the first five seals given by John in Revelation. Well he also gives us a sixth seal that matches the events that come after the Abomination of desolation and Great tribulation. So now, in a simplified manner we can state this timeline as seals 1-5, followed by and culminating in an event (A of D) followed by a time of Great tribulation, followed by our sixth seal redemption. The seals in revelation are easy to find but where is the A of D and the Great tribulation? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (rev. 7:14) In this verse we see the term Great tribulation and this is event occurs during the sixth seal looking back, meaning the Great tribulation precedes the sixth seal. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev. 13:5-7) Here we see both an abomination of desolation and a time of 42 months to make War on the saints and to over come them. Because revelation 13 comes after revelation 7, many have come up with all kinds of timelines that place these events after the sixth seal events, But what this in effect does is negate the chronology of the Olivet discourse. You see, Birth pangs lead to the time of Birth, and the great tribulation which is involved in child birth. When the first five seals were opened at the time of the early church, they were the tribulation which john in revelation aligned himself with, But they are not the great tribulation of Giving Birth. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (rev. 1:9) Some in the past have asserted that the great tribulation was in 70 AD, But John would have stated that here, but instead he called what he experienced and the church up until that time as merely tribulation. All of those birth pangs at the time of birth will be magnified in a great tribulation Known as Child Birth. The Great tribulation is the time we as the church give Birth, meaning those 5 seals of pangs are intensified in that final time of great tribulation. This Birth and Joy following the sorrow of Labor is found throughout scripture here is a sampling. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3:16) Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. (Isa 51:11) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. (John 16:21) Fear took hold upon them there, and pain, as of a woman in travail. (Psalm48;6) Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. (Isa 54:1) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1 Thess. 5:3) As You can see, the simplicity of Revelation is as simple as child birth. Birth pangs, and tribulation, lead to great tribulation and birth, which leads to Joy and redemption. None of this happened in 70AD, And John makes it clear that this is yet to come, We in the church age are partakers in those birthpangs Some of us, perhaps in this generation will be partakers in the Birth itself, But Know this that Joy follows that Great tribulation of Birth. The fact that there are antagonists involved in the great tribulation does not take away form this simplicity of revelation. Any Human on earth can understand this timeline of revelation, and there is no need for doctorate studies of theology to understand this. In fact those things can confuse the simplicity of events.
  3. Quick question for you Iamlamad, How is it that the martyrs who die for the testimony of Christ Jesus in the 70th week are any different than Stephen and the church age martyrs? I agree with you on the 5th seal being opened 2000 years ago in time for Stephen.
  4. No, He did not. You're ASSUMING that it is "yet to come" because you can't make sense of it in history; however, it DID happen in the First Century, even if you can't see it or recognize it. Why do you think God allowed the works of Josephus and those of Eusebius Pamphili and those of Epiphanius of Salamis to survive all these years? They give us the RECORD of what the Christians did in that early church of Jerusalem! They DID escape when they saw Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and when the Roman Gentiles stood within the Temple grounds, desecrating those grounds! They escaped into the mountains of Israel and then to Pella in the region of the Decapolis ("Ten towns") in 66 A.D., long before the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. They managed to get out while God distracted their enemies, fighting against one another. I Address this in my Post on John's chronology. It is in the section on immanency. You'll have to show me where exactly. See, what you've said thus far sounds like you're talking about Revelation 20:7-8 and I HOPE that's NOT what you're talking about! That comes AFTER the Millennium, however, we will be resurrected BEFORE the Millennium begins! And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. (Rev 13;5-6) Coupled 12:6ff Where the Woman flees into the Wilderness, Satan is cast down to earth and He comes in great wrath... which is to say great tribulation. Have you ever had God speak to you through a verse that was totally out of context with the intent of the Author and applied it to you? He has with me, as my calling comes from a passage in Isaiah that clearly talks about Jacob yet He applied this to myself ,and it has proven to be true in my service to Him. This is the Problem with theology alone at approaching the Word of God, There is revelation and relationship as well, as the Word of God comes to life. I Do not discount nor negate theology, and Greek studies, or even Hebrew studies, But just like the Hebrew roots movement has distorted the Gospel of Grace, so too can this sort of rigid intellectual approach to scriptures. A.W. Tozer called this the Cult of textualism, And if You are not familiar with this term, You should be, because it the exact opposite of the Post modernist mindset of relativism. Scroll down in this Link to the sub title "Falls victim to its virtues" to Understand this... http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19117&forum=36 You say I am walking the fence, That is a compliment, and yes it is "treacherously tricky", You have to keep your eyes fixed on Jesus and the cross, He is the "Way". Paul writes: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (Eph 4:14-15) He acknowledges that narrow way upon which we walk, the fence if you will, and encourages us to continue in this not falling back into the cunning craftiness of man centered religion. With that I encourage you yourself to turn your focus back on Christ Jesus and the simplicity of the Gospel of Grace. When You do, the Word of God will come to life, and the divine revelations will broaden your understanding of the Bible as well as enrich your relationship with Christ Jesus. He lives in the Word of God, if you let him become the head, and not the hierarchy of men, and the wisdom of men. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Cor 2;5)
  5. Yuert, You are delving into the world of Demons and demon possession, by watching those movies, and the life you have lived, the music you listen to. They have control over you right now, and the nightmares are just a manifestation of that. If you are serious about what you said of wanting to return to Jesus You need to pray the following: Heavenly Father, I need you, I need you to break the Bonds of these spirits that are influencing me. Protect me in Jesus name from these spirits, and cleanse me from them. Loose those chains they have over me, and place me under the protection of the Your shed blood on the cross. In Jesus name Amen. This is just a beginning, You may have gone to church as kid, and even said a prayer of salvation, But you are an adult now, and you have to make that choice yourself now to be born again. Your heavenly Father is waiting for you to Return to Him and make that choice to follow Him of your own free will as an adult. Get on your knees and Repent, Call out to Him And he will cleanse you, and fill you with His peace. Talk to him as if you are talking to your Father. God bless.
  6. Just realized I forgot to post the link I spoke about. Here it is. https://www.challies.com/articles/10-strengths-and-10-dangers-of-systematic-theology/ I'll respond to the rest in the AM.
  7. At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mat. 11:25) As I read your comment, the above verse popped into my head. Do You really think Jesus is that complicated? Do You really think His Words are so complicated that we have to know the Nuances of the Greek language to comprehend what is said? If You take the time to read my Post, (which I am not done with yet) you will see a simplicity there that can be explained to the most novice of Bible students. About the Only complicated thing is the tool being used to come up with the chronology which is triangulation, and to most with a High school diploma you can explain this in about a half a page or so. The Fact is, Jesus Spoke of an abomination which is yet to come. It did not come in 70AD because John does mention it in Revelation, and it is the wrath of Satan.... His short while to do as he wills. The structure I pose is very simple, but counter intuitive to the intelligentsia. It is first and foremost based on common sense a Simple literary reading of the text. Although Revelation is written in a more complicated literary style when it comes to chronology, it is no different than say a Hollywood movie centered on an event similar to a Robert Altman film, where multiple stories are told all coming together at a certain event, for example like an airplane crash. Each story shows the story of a different victim in those movies, so they may jump back to the Pilot fighting in a war over "Macho Grande", and how this affects his love life, and then the story jumps back and shows a family on the plane getting ready in the morning.... You catch my drift.... It is all just a simple story, no need for convoluted literary translations of words and Doctorate level Greek studies. A Lot of what you are doing is nothing more than complicating the simple, and is a tactic as old as the church with Gnostics and the Greek Philosophers. But if you remember what Paul said about the wisdom of the wise in 1 cor. 1:19 then you will then begin to see that perhaps the approach you are taking is the wrong one to understanding Prophecy. For me Personally, I Have seen people use their extensive knowledge of Greek to corrupt the simplicity of the Gospel over and the resulting errors we are still dealing with in the church today. Lutheranism, Calvinism, are non-heretical errors, but errors nonetheless, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the SDA teachings of Ellen White are heretical. Jonathon Taze Russel particularly used his knowledge of the Greek to twist scripture to say exactly the opposite of what common sense dictated by using the wrong article in John 1:1,and I could list hundred of these sorts of examples. Unfortunately they are getting worse in this day of the WWW and common folk having access to translation software, and you are seeing knowledge increasing, But they are never arriving at the Truth. I Am not saying theology is bad, or learning the nuances of the Greek language is bad, or that the access to these translation tools are bad for common people to have, but they can be used for ill gotten gain and or to lead into error. But when it comes to understanding prophecy simplicity is the way to go. Simply reading the Word of God as written, And the Spirit of Truth teaching you as you go. This is all you need. This is all I have chosen to use. Apart from Strong's concordance as a dictionary, this is pretty much all I have done to get where I am at, And you know what, how He has shown me the events are unfolding makes perfect sense. Take the time to read the following article on the strengths and dangers of Systematic theology, and you will better understand what I am getting at. Jesus did not use the brightest mind to propogate the truth, but the simple, and sometimes we lose sight of that fact. Even Paul who was well educated counted this as nothing compared to the Gospel, and called preaching the Gospel foolishness. It is from this rejection that he came up with his approach of Pauline Ignorance, similar to Socratic Ignorance which is what I am doing myself, trying to follow in his footsteps. God Bless.
  8. Bible Predicts this will occur in Luke 21, and Matthew 24. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Matthew 24:9-12 It is only going to get worse, Luke adds: But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.(Luke 21:12) The Laws are already on the books where children can be taken away from parents if they refuse to let their child explore gender ambiguity, They are also trying to make it a hate crime to use wrong gender pronouns.... Canada passed a law Thursday making it illegal to use the wrong gender pronouns. Critics say that Canadians who do not subscribe to progressive gender theory could be accused of hate crimes, jailed, fined, and made to take anti-bias training. Basically what is next, concentration camps for Christians. Are you ready for that? Link: The article is from 2017 just to give you an idea when last Thursday was. https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/06/19/canadians-face-hate-crimes-using-wrong-gender-pronouns/
  9. 1 The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 2 The vision of the seals Rev. 4-8:5 3 The vision of the Trumpets Rev 8:6-11 4 The vision of the characters Rev 12-14 5 The vision of the Bowls of wrath Rev 15-16 6 the vision of the battles Rev. 17-19 7 The vision of the Millennium and eternity Rev. 20-end Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. (Rev. 1:19 ESV) Here is a Post I started on this so that I can get all my chronology in one place. It will probably take another 3-4 posts to complete it all.
  10. The Doctrine of Immanence Throughout the Epistles of the Apostles there is a what has come to be known as the doctrine of immanency. Some examples of this are as follows: And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. (Romans 13:11-12) behold, the judge standeth before the door. (James 5:9b) But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.....For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:7,17) This immanency in the apostles came from the fact that they all knew and understood the opening parts of the Olivet discourse. Like John said in Revelation, I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, (1:9A) These Opened seals were dealt with in the lives of the Apostles in the persecution they faced themselves, the famine, the wars, and rumors of wars, and their role in preaching the Gospel to the Uttermost parts of the World. Many have Observed these similarities in the opening of the Olivet discourse with the first five seals. (NOTE: Matthew is in BLACK text, Luke is in RED text, and Mark is in GREEN text. I Only included 1 verse from Mark as this is almost the same wording wise as Matthew.) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Underlined Above are what in effect are the first five seals of Revelation. All the Apostles knew that the next thing to happen was that the Abomination would occur which was followed by the Great tribulation and then their rescue after that tribulation. I am sure many thought the events leading up to 70 AD destruction of the Temple was this time, and many Christians fled Jerusalem because of this prophecy wisely so, But it was not until John Received his visions on the Isle of Patmos, that these events were clarified in the Body of Christ, which came circa 90AD. Thus all the apostles knew before was that the main event that would be a trigger is the Abomination of Desolation, which would mark the beginning of a time of great tribulation After which they would be redeemed, the second coming of Christ. We, Now with hindsight can appreciate this and Know that His coming is immanent as well, And we too are sharing in their tribulation, And suffering for the name of Jesus, and will face Great tribulation before he comes. In the Wisdom of God, He chose not to reveal these things to the apostles, and the church until after the events of 70AD,because he Knew this would be used as Impetus by those early believers to flee Jerusalem, and Thus sparing the church to preach the Gospel throughout the World. But now we see another Abomination approaching that we must contend with before our redemption comes. This Second coming is Just as immanent as it was in the Apostles day and age, and has been throughout church History. Many In the church associate the doctrine of immanence with the Pre-trib rapture, But as you can see this doctrine as applied to the Early apostolic church before the siege and destruction of Jerusalem clearly showed They understood that the Return of Christ to restore all things would not happen until after the Great tribulation. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-17)
  11. I am starting this post to gather my thoughts together on, seeing as the other one is gone off on a tangent. And I wanted to Gather together what I have in one cohesive Post. The Following is a list of John's seven "visions" that he saw, upon which his chronology will become self evident, and no need to put parenthesis in the text. 1 The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 2 The vision of the seals Rev. 4-8:5 3 The vision of the Trumpets Rev 8:6-11 4 The vision of the characters Rev 12-14 5 The vision of the Bowls of wrath Rev 15-16 6 the vision of the battles Rev. 17-19 7 The vision of the Millennium and eternity Rev. 20-end Of these seven visions each is chronological within the vision itself, so for example seal one will come first, and seal two second. But each vision is distinct from the others. Each has a different start point, some 2000 years ago, some not until the final week of Revelation. The First vision serves as an introduction and stops at the beginning of the final week, the Last vision as a conclusion and starts at the end of the final week. The Other five end at the Day of the LORD. Of those Middle five visions, There is overlap in chronology, so for example, Trumpet five can be followed by seal six and trumpet six, But never will trumpet 5 precede trumpet 4. The start time of the visions are as follows. Dates are approximates. 1 Pentecost, 30AD 2 Resurrection 30 AD 3 Start of the final week TBD 4 At the birth of Christ 4/3 BC 5 At the sixth Trumpet TBD 6 At the fifth Trumpet TBD 7 At the end of the final week TBD This all could have happened immediately after the resurrection of Christ, But the 2000 year church age was the mystery that was inserted into the timeline of events. Some of these things like the seals were opened immediately, but restrained as acknowledged by Paul writing For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:7) Thus for example the church has had to deal with things like persecution (seal 5), and pestilence (seal 4... think black plague) and False apostles (seal 1... Nicolaitans, Those who rule over the Laity) throughout church History, But they have been restrained from overcoming the church. Seal 6 and seven were never opened, because the mystery of the church age was inserted therein. At the beginning of the final week The Antichrist/Beast will be Granted Power to make war and to overcome the saints, which begins the final week. Continued Later.... BTW, You are welcome to comment, But I will not respond to your comments until after I am done presenting my full framework here.
  12. 1 The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 2 The vision of the seals Rev. 4-8:5 3 The vision of the Trumpets Rev 8:6-11 4 The vision of the characters Rev 12-14 5 The vision of the Bowls of wrath Rev 15-16 6 the vision of the battles Rev. 17-19 7 The vision of the Millennium and eternity Rev. 20-end Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. (Rev. 1:19 ESV)
  13. It is some Amazonian god. The point being that Vatican was angry about molech statue, while they were worshipping another idol in the Vatican.
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