dhchristian

looks like I finally touched a nerve..... LOL. I Just gave you three, yet you cannot see those three at work in you. As i said at the outset exposing these assumptions is like trying to get an evolutionist to admit their science is not Objective, and that they begin with certain assumptions that slant their discoveries. There is no disdain, What you see as an attack against you which you label as "Ad Hominem" arguments is nothing more than simple observation from my end. You shall know a tree by its fruits.... I Know eschatology is not the topic of this post, but it is one of those fruit I have observed, It is a theory based on Humanism Not Depravity by its very nature. If you have an honest bone in your body you will admit this. God is using a "simple" argument like this to expose a weakness in your position, the question is what is your reaction? Will this cause you to entrench yourself deeper in the error? Or will you actually seek the Truth and grow in the Spirit, and learn to say with the Prophets of old "Lord thou Knowest"? Will you remain in your own carnal understanding of the fleshly mind? Or will you be Holy Spirit Taught? The latter takes Brokenness, and an utter disdain for your own understanding to accomplish, and is based acknowledging that our carnal mind is a deceiver, and fallen, and in need of being transformed. When I see that brokenness in you is when I will Know you truly are not a Humanist Christian. Before you respond, May I suggest you go and watch a video compilation by Leonard Ravenhill called "To the Preacher: The Idolatry of Intelligence by Leonard Ravenhill". You might learn something.

I Already have. 1. This thread is caused by Humanism in the church, Not just you particularly. It is prevalent in the post Modern churches of our day, It entered in in the early 1900's with the introductions of new translations using and more heavily relying on the Alexandrian Texts, But also on the assumptions of Humanism that pervaded this era. 2. Your eschatology is based on these humanistic assumptions and in fact Only Humanism can produce this "Kingdom now/ Dominionist" eschatology you espouse. 3. Your reliance on the carnal mind and the wisdom of men over the Divine revelation. Your faith is in your own capacity to understand, Whereas true saving faith and the peace that comes from it surpasses all understanding and His love is incomprehensible by the mind of man. Humanism is all over the modern church, and they have put God into the box of human understanding which is limited and fallen (Carnal). Operating in this realm the church has lost touch with The Spirit, they have quenched the Spirit, and are self deceived by their Understanding of what is Truth. They mistake mental enlightenment with Spiritual insight, and in so doing Oppose the move of the Spirit as has been seen in this OP. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. ( Romans 8:6-8)

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3-4) Amen Peter, Your on the right track, Read the 5th verse of the passage quoted above. God Bless

Moderators there are now two comments that are hidden on page 59 still, Please rectify, Either with an explanation of why they are not approved or if it they are being overlooked. No Need to post this comment.

Not once have i ever seen you Not attack the person, You did so with @Gideon and you have done so with myself and you are doing so with Peter. Because you see the weakness of your position on this OP you instead try to pick it apart and disgrace it without Interaction. An Ad hominem argument is a sign of weakness of ones own position and an attempt to level the playing field of the debate, Yelling louder and not letting the other side be articulated. This is in fact what SJW's do to silence the facts all the time. "You're a racist, a misogynist, white privaledge" etc. This is all you are doing but on a much more intellectual scale. You are silencing the debate by nitpicking the one presenting what he himself is in the process of discovering, Meanwhile the one who can explain this to you keeps having their comments blocked on this site by Moderators who are equally complicit in this sort silencing. Now if you have any degree of philosophical Knowledge, You will admit that I am right, that you are trying to silence by use of intellectual superiority the voices of those who have less education than you do, and I am telling you you are deceiving yourself, and so did Paul in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3. It is there he presents the Christian alternative to Socratic ignorance, a concept I am sure you are familiar with which leads to in the worldly sense one to be "ever learning but never arriving at the truth" But in Paul's version "to Know nothing save Christ and him Crucified" Which leads to all truth. The carnal mind and wisdom of this world is a deceiver and it will deceive the wisest of men and they will look down on those who are simple in the faith, But it is those simple in the faith that God uses to confound the wise, as he is doing here. Do You understand? What Peter is Posting in this thread is a brilliant and simple observation of a theological distinction that has been missing in the church part of it is the result of a humanistic mindset of the modern translators (No I am not KJV only) But this is a prime example of how the culture of the translators affects the translation of scripture, So When you come at it from a libertarian perspective you are going to have that bias in your perspective, Or if you come from a paternalistic perspective your bias will be paternalistic, A Monarchial perspective is going to have Monarchial overtones, and a culture that is Humanistic as is the culture of modernism then the translations will have a humanistic perspective. Understanding a distinction such as this gives the church a whole new way of studying the Word of God, Put simply, what Peter is saying here is good hermeneutics and adds a whole diverse field to Biblical study of the cultures of translations and how they affect the translation. He probably does not even see this himself as he is mainly concerned with accuracy of truth he is presenting. So In conclusion, what you are in fact doing is trying to silence something that is brilliant and will be a benefit to the church, in arriving at the Truth of the Word of God. Either you do not see this (Ignorance), You do not want to admit this ( too proud to be proven wrong), Or you are Opposing Truth willfully. Oh And BTW, for the record, I studied the sociology and Philosophy of Knowledge and could appeal to authority as well, but instead choose not to. You Know, Epistemology. So I fully understand the Socratic method and its flaws therein, Which is what Paul, Knew full well from his studies... Again, take the time to read the first 3 chapters in 1 Corinthians with this in mind, as this will put your carnal mind in its rightful place.

To me these are all ad hominem arguments against Peter. I Could say the same for anyone who is stuck in the error of humanism and self deception.... A.W. Tozer on self deception: OF ALL FORMS OF DECEPTION, self-deception is the most deadly, and of all deceived persons the self-deceived are the least likely to discover the fraud. The reason for this is simple. When a man is deceived by another he is deceived against his will. He is contending against an adversary and is temporarily the victim of the other's guile. Since he expects his foe to take advantage of him he is watchful and quick to suspect trickery. Under such circumstances it is possible to be deceived sometimes and for a short while, but because the victim is resisting he may break out of the trap and escape before too long. With the self-deceived it is quite different. He is his own enemy and is working a fraud upon himself. He wants to believe the lie and is psychologically conditioned to do so. He does not resist the deceit but collaborates with it against himself. There is no struggle, because the victim surrenders before the fight begins. He enjoys being deceived. It is altogether possible to practice fraud upon our own souls and go deceived to judgment. "If a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing," said Paul, "he deceiveth himself." With this agrees the inspired James: "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." The farther we push into the sanctuary the greater becomes the danger of self-deception. The deeply religious man is far more vulnerable than the easygoing fellow who takes his religion lightly. This latter may be deceived but he is not likely to be self-deceived. Under the pressure of deep spiritual concern, and before his heart has been wholly conquered by the Spirit of God, a man may be driven to try every dodge to save face and preserve a semblance of his old independence. This is always dangerous and if persisted in may prove calamitous. The fallen heart is by nature idolatrous. There appears to be no limit to which some of us will go to save our idol, while at the same time telling ourselves eagerly that we are trusting in Christ alone. It takes a violent act of renunciation to deliver us from the hidden idol, and since very few modern Christians understand that such an act is necessary, and only a small number of those who know are willing to do, it follows that relatively few professors of the Christian faith these days have ever experienced the painful act of renunciation that frees the heart from idolatry. Prayer is usually recommended as the panacea for all ills and the key to open every prison door, and it would indeed be difficult to overstate the advantages and privilege of Spirit-inspired prayer. But we must not forget that unless we are wise and watchful prayer itself may become a source of self-deception. There are as many kinds of prayer as there are problems and some kinds are not acceptable to God. The prophets of the Old Testament denounced Israel for trying to hide their iniquities behind their prayers. Christ flatly rejected the prayers of hypocrites and James declared that some religious persons ask and receive not because they ask amiss. To escape self-deception the praying man must come out clean and honest. He cannot hide in the cross while concealing in his bosom the golden wedge and the goodly Babylonish garment. Grace will save a man but it will not save him and his idol. The blood of Christ will shield the penitent sinner alone, but never the sinner and his idol. Faith will justify the sinner, but it will never justify the sinner and his sin. No amount of pleading will make evil good or wrong right. A man may engage in a great deal of humble talk before God and get no response because unknown to himself he is using prayer to disguise disobedience. He may lie for hours in sackcloth and ashes with no higher motive than to try to persuade God to come over on his side so he can have his own way. He may grovel before God in a welter of self-accusation, refuse to give up his secret sin and be rejected for his pains. It can happen. Dr. H. M. Shuman once said to me in private conversation that he believed the one quality God required a man to have before He would save him was honesty. With this I heartily agree. However dishonest the man may have been before, he must put away his duplicity if he is to be accepted before the Lord. Double dealing is unutterably offensive to God. The insincere man has no claim on mercy. For such a man the cross of Christ provides no remedy. Christ can and will save a man who has been dishonest, but He cannot save him while he is dishonest. Absolute candor is an indispensable requisite to salvation. How may we remain free from self-deception? The answer sounds old-fashioned and dull but here it is: Mean what you say and never say what you do not mean, either to God or man. Think candid thoughts and act forthrightly always, whatever the consequence. To do this will bring the cross into your life and keep you dead to self and to public opinion. And it may get you into trouble sometimes, too. But a guileless mind is a great treasure; it is worth any price. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=173

“It is easier to fool the people, than to convince them they have been fooled." Mark Twain. As I wrote earlier on here, those who are fully immersed in the humanistic form of Christianity trying to convince them that their assumptions are off is like trying to convince an evolutionist that their assumptions are off. Self deception is the hardest deception to recognize and overcome, because at its heart is a lie you see as the truth. As for unity there will be both a false unity and a true unity of the Spirit. The false unity is built on ecumenism and tolerance, but the true Unity is Built on the fulness of Christ. Where he is the head , the all in all of the church, which is what your humanistic Christianity cannot grasp because its faith is in the human carnal mind and human mental capacities. All one has to do is carefully read the first 3 chapters of 1 corinthians to see this, But yet humanism is incapable of dealing with the deception of the mind. You sit here and lump me into a camp (holiness) when you do not know me, others here have accused me of legalism, others of preaching lawlessness, others of being a Calvinist, others of being an Arminian, I have been accused of being a catholic for my positions on who are saints, I am accused of being charismatic by fundamentalist and a fundamentalist by charismatics, I am accused of being a cessationist by some and a continuist by others, But one who is In Christ is all of these things for they are living in the fulness of Christ. It is you who are "labelling" people here, putting them into the box of your own understanding instead of seeing them as complex Human beings with diverse beliefs. It is you who are dividing them in your mind into rational units that you can comprehend them with your carnal mind. Is this an ad hominem response Or an accurate one. To the one who is self deceived they will see any rebuke, correction or otherwise as an ad hominem attack against themselves, Or as the SJW's do "cry victim" even when they are in the wrong. what @Peterlag has conveyed in this post Is so much bigger than what you are able to see, because you like many in Christendom are being self deceived by the lies of Humanism, and it is this humanism that forms other parts of your understanding such as your dominionist/ kingdom now eschatology. This problem of Humanism in the church is far bigger than just you, and pervades much of the institutional church of our day, and for this reason God is raising up a new Priesthood as he did in Israel, a Holy remnant, a silent revival, a treasured possession of his while the old goes on into the harlotry of humanism.... This has all been predicted in Prophecy and is coming to pass right now. The question for any here who read this is where does your faith stand? Is it based in humanism or based in the character and authority of Jesus Christ Who is faithful? Remember this is subtile, and the devil is known for the subtility of his deception.... Work out your faith with fear and trembling.

Can the mods please post my "hidden" comment on page 57. There is nothing offensive in that comment and will help this conversation along towards the truth of what is being shown here...

Why would I "oyvey" Peter for posting what Is a brilliant assessment of a scriptural error that has pervaded the modern church, that is leading a majority of Christians down the wrong path of Humanism as opposed to true faith? To the contrary I will praise him for it, just as @Gideon was doing the same and others who have been run off this site by those humanistic easy-believism Christians. Is this me or Peter or Gideon being Harsh and mean spirited? No It is us trying to obey scriptures to reprove rebuke and exhort those who are falling in all love for them. The Faith of the church has morphed from the faith OF Jesus to the faith IN Jesus which is the Humanistic translation of these verses. The focus has gone from what Jesus Does and resting in His promises to what we do and as a result the church is largely powerless and dying in narcissism, a look at me and how much better i am attitude all the while they are wretched miserable pitiable naked and Blind... the self delusion of the Laodicean church. It is the very mind that you hold in such high esteem, the carnal mind that is leading to that delusion of prosperity and the lack of need of anything. Holiness is learning to rest in the provision of God, learning to trust fully in what he has done, Not as a license to sin but as a desire to be with him fully and whole heartedly.... to learn to love the Lord your God with all your heart. Read the following from Tozer and compare it to modern Christianity.... This in a nutshell is the faith OF Jesus. Compare this to the modern churches view where Jesus is something we mold into our image and you will see the difference. What Is Faith? Remember that faith is not a noble quality found only in superior men. It is not a virtue attainable by a limited few. It is not the ability to persuade ourselves that black is white or that something we desire will come to pass if we only wish hard enough. Faith is simply the bringing of our minds into accord with the truth. It is adjusting our expectations to the promises of God in complete assurance that the God of the whole earth cannot lie. A man looks at a mountain and affirms, "That is a mountain." There is no particular virtue in the affirmation. It is simply accepting the fact that stands before him and bringing his belief into accord with the fact. The man does not create the mountain by believing, nor could he annihilate it by denying. And so with the truth of God. The believing man accepts a promise of God as a fact as solid as a mountain and vastly more enduring. His faith changes nothing except his own personal relation to the word of promise. God's Word is true whether we believe it or not. Human unbelief cannot alter the character of God. Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality. The man's faith in the mountain is valid only because the mountain is there; otherwise it would be mere imagination and would need to be sharply corrected to rescue the man from harmful delusion. So God is what He is in Himself. He does not become what we believe. "I AM That I AM." We are on safe ground only when we know what kind of God He is and adjust our entire being to the holy concept. http://www.cmalliance.org/devotions/tozer?id=495

He is preaching what is known as holiness, Not sinless perfectionism. This site has no tolerance for this being taught, and My Posts too are being moderated because of this. @Gideon as well, as others have also been expelled for preaching this and are being silenced here, and in fact i have a comment that is not being approved on the previous page about this as well, which would explain the "oy veys", which is that You, and others here are unable to see what the point of the post is because of a humanistic bias in your assumptions that you carry in your theology, as do the moderators here. There is a pattern of attack here to these sorts of posters who are trying to show you what your theology may be missing, but none want to hear of it, But those with ears do hear. This is the silent revival of the end times holy remnant, the saints of the next dispensation, The Overcomers, This comes from all backgrounds, But is neither protestant nor catholic nor charismatic, But are those who have come to the fulness of Christ from all of those backgrounds. The Question is are you one? Or are you still arguing with the carnal mind? In other words, you are seeing a move of the Holy Ghost in your midst, and are opposing it because your mind cannot grasp it, But it cannot be grasped by the carnal mind and therein lies the problem..... yet this move of the Spirit is very Logical and based in Truth, and the Word of God. What did God do when the priesthood of Old Israel became corrupt? He raised up a new priesthood, the others just died off. He is doing the same with the institutional church of our day which has become corrupt. Between legalism and lawlessness, Satan's two towers, there is the way of Holiness.

Peter, God Bless you for taking this stand, Few people in Christian circles see this because they are so caught up in the Humanistic view of Christianity, It is like trying to tell an evolutionists their assumptions are off and their science is not objective, it is so ingrained into how they think. Then there are those who do not want this message getting out, so that those in the easy believism camp will begin to workout their faith with fear and trembling, and instead want to live in their comfortable state. There have been others here who have tried to show this and continually get run off of this site for doing so, which is the testimony of this site. It is for the testimony of Jesus which you are sharing in. When We are weak, HE is strong. I wrote the following elsewhere On a different topic which pertains to this topic, hope it helps and blesses you. Trusting in the Lord and His Providence is not like crossing your fingers, If You see it that way you have a powerless faith, and serve a powerless God. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Cor. 12:9-10) It is this sort of faith, which is required to enter His resting place, It is this kind of Trust that allows us to face giants in the land and allows us to enter his promised Land. It is this kind of faith that overcomes Not only the evils of persecution, But also the seductions of this world, The Lust of the flesh, the Lust of the eyes and the pride of Life. (1 John 2:16). It is this kind of faith, that allows us to overcome as Christ overcame (Rev. 3:21) Everything else falls short, I encourage you to find His strength made perfect in you, By Learning to fully trust in his providence. Partial belief is a stench in the nostrils of God, this being the very definition of complacency in The Christian, and the very sin of Laodiceans.... We are all Laodiceans... So do you trust your own strength, Or His strength? If the former, you are standing on sinking sand. My hope is built on nothing less Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness; I dare not trust the sweetest frame, But wholly lean on Jesus’ name. Refrain: On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand; All other ground is sinking sand, All other ground is sinking sand. When darkness veils His lovely face, I rest on His unchanging grace; In every high and stormy gale, My anchor holds within the veil. His oath, His covenant, His blood Support me in the whelming flood; When all around my soul gives way, He then is all my hope and stay. When He shall come with trumpet sound, Oh, may I then in Him be found; Dressed in His righteousness alone, Faultless to stand before the throne.

So Much Truth Here, Amen. Without Him We can do nothing (John 15:5) What we are seeing here opposing this truth is simply humanism, faith misplaced in human achievement and strength. The contrast can be stated as follows: "I Will, I Will, I will...." (Isa. 14:12-14) vs "Christ Is all in all" (Eph. 1:23) But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. (John 15:21)

Read verses 1-9, Particularly 2, 5, and 9. In Particular compare how verse 9 has been altered from the KJV to the NIV re: the topic of this post. My personal belief is that the modern translators had this cultural bias (humanism) creep in to their translations, and that it was not a conscious attempt to bring in heresy, But a cultural one. Living in a monarchial world tends to lean towards an "authoritative text" translation, Living in a democratic world tends to lean towards a humanistic text and less authoritative. Which is the right "culture", in which the original text was written in, or closer to it is, is the Monarchial culture. Hence the KJV is more accurate in its interpretation. In Questions like this, this is why I put more value in the KJV. Even the NKJV gets these things wrong, and such is the subtilty of the serpent. The culture bias at the time of translation reflects in that translation. I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. (NIV) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)

Gainsaying scripturally is the opposition to God appointed leadership ( Gainsaying of Korah) church leadership today is a career choice as opposed to a calling to service, so the Gainsayer will elevate themselves to the position of Power in the church, and boast of their credentials such their educational accomplishment for the purpose of self aggrandizement. All gainsaying does this, and like the Pharisees Jesus spoke of they like the chief seats in the synagogues and all the attention drawn to themselves. A True minister called of God does not need to gainsay in this respect, they are not usurpers seeking power But their authority is granted and empowered by God. The internet is full of these sorts of self exalted ones in this modern humanist Christian mindset. Good question which needed further clarification. Jude 1:11 couples gainsaying with Balaam's error, which is to do so for reward, so I lump them together as intricately tied to one another.

What we are seeing with the Humanist Christian model is a form of gainsaying in the church, even with those who serve (Especially with those who serve) A minister is the position of a servant, a slave of righteousness as Paul calls it, not a career choice to make a living at. Gainsaying not only involves financial gain but also personal fame and notoriety, They like the best seats in the synagogue, and to be called rabbi etc. (see Matthew 23) That is the perversion humanism brings, and the Jews of Jesus day were no exception. Humanism is like a serpent that creeps into safe place, and perverts that place. What was once based on Christ Jesus alone, is now based on Jesus Plus me.... My works add to salvation, when salvation is by grace alone. Faith is merely receiving that Grace, It is not our belief or how much we believe in him, but how much He is in us, whether He is LORD, or merely savior. Yes there is a progression in this, Yes we receive the truth for selfish reasons (eternal life) But we eventually reach the fulness of Christ in our walk, if we do not we are stuck in complacency which is the sin of the Laodicean church, thinking they are rich and in need of Nothing. Laodicea is still a "church", and her members are Christians, But they are stuck there, Like an eaglet who has yet to learn to fly. They may flap their wings hard, and squawk loudly, But until they learn to trust the thermals to lift them they will struggle to soar. The Faith of Christ is that thing we trust in to lift us up, Not our strength. When we are weak, He is strong. An Eagle when he is soring barely has to flap his wings. When We actually come to see this is when we submit to Him. (Read James 4:1-10). Instead of Praying to "strengthen my faith" we should pray "help me to put to death the old man and put on the new" We do this by receiving the testimony of Jesus Christ, and the faith of Christ. When the Laodicean church begins to see this is when the end time revival will begin and the outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits will begin. This comes not from our strength and will, but from His work in us. He is the potter we are the clay, Christian humanism says, "I am the potter and I will mold myself as I see fit". Most people fear the loss of this "control" in their lives, But submitting to the authority of God is the most liberating thing a person can do, and one little preposition can change the entire meaning of the word of God from Christianity to Humanism. Such is the subtilty of the serpent, and the deception and denial of this end time church, a form of self deception. When a person begins to see this and tries to explain it as Peter has here, notice all the opposition that arises.... This is because most serve themselves rather than God. Hard words to hear, But those who have ears will hear. The Singleness or simplicity in Christ Jesus stands in contradiction to the subtilty of the serpent. This is what the old Hymns have that the new ones have lost, for example: My hope is built on nothing less Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness; I dare not trust the sweetest frame, But wholly lean on Jesus’ name. Refrain: On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand; All other ground is sinking sand, All other ground is sinking sand. When darkness veils His lovely face, I rest on His unchanging grace; In every high and stormy gale, My anchor holds within the veil. His oath, His covenant, His blood Support me in the whelming flood; When all around my soul gives way, He then is all my hope and stay. When He shall come with trumpet sound, Oh, may I then in Him be found; Dressed in His righteousness alone, Faultless to stand before the throne. Compared to this.... Make way through the waters Walk me through the fire Do what You are famous for What You are famous for Shut the mouths of lions Bring dry bones to life and Do what You are famous for What You are famous for I believe in You, God I believe in You Do You see the difference between these hymns? One is from the mid 19th century, the other is contemporary. The contemporary one is saying if "I believe, therefore, He will do", the old hymn says "what He has done, is the basis of my faith". The Latter makes God a servant of your belief, while the other makes us the servant because of what he has done. To Me this is a huge difference.