Ruth Also

I read it soon after it was first published. I agree with the others who posted before me. Timely to bring this up: we ought to arm ourselves to suffer and to serve our Lord regardless where this pandemic and political struggle take us.

What comes to mind is that God has already showed us how He acts. Nineveh repented and God spared them. For the most part we across the globe are as wicked as any people described in Scriptures, we are self-centered, we are self-serving, we don't value justice for the poor and vulnerable, and we're even slaughtering our own offspring as a "right" for women. Our sentence is pending and this might be the first of it, but it might be that if we repent, God would again hold us in safety. At the point we all get that bad, that wicked, and fill up that cup of wrath, there will be no turning back from the end time scenario we find in the prophets and Revelation. Until then, I'm all for preaching repentance, both personal, national, and global. God is indeed sovereign in His deeds, but He's already told us what He wants from us and given us all that we need to do and be those people that He really wants.

I enjoy end-time discussions, but it comes down to practicality to me. Regardless of the time, the important controllable factor is ARE WE DOING what He told us to do, or are we playing around without seriousness. There are lots of indicators, and those are good, but the most important question is what are we doing? Are we going to be found doing as He wanted?

What God established is the TRUTH. What people say about it is always a secondary source, a commentary as it were. God established His words in the Old Testament directly to His called people through Moses: He told us what would work if we want to be His. The prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit to show how what God said applied to the situation they saw to both warn and encourage. Jesus (understandably ) spoke with authority to show how what God had said applied to the world in Truth, in contrast to the misrepresentations of the present system of religious leadership. What Peter and Paul wrote was to help people in various situations understand what God had said to begin with. They used various methods and illustrations but the intent was to help people hear the same unchanging truth about what works if we want to be His. It always encourages me to realize that God is not a moving target: He and what He says are constants we can trust with our lives.

Watch out for the established ruts so they don't trip us up as we walk this walk and run this race. Yes, God gave us commandments so we could know what to do and not do. Yes, the work of acceptance with God is finished in Christ for those who trust in Him and rest in Him. Yes there is an overcoming to be done, a work in His fields, a faith that is worked out with evidence of obedience to what He says. Don't get caught in the ruts that exclude all the components because they don't naturally exclude each other - they work together as we abide in Christ to bear much fruit and walk in the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and avoid walking in the ways of sin and death. I think I'm right that the only commanded regular fast day is the Day of Atonement. Other days were mentioned, like the big repentance of Ninevah, the several fasts Jesus did, the religious fasts that the Pharisees thought and the commentary that suggests they thought they were more righteous than the next person because they fasted more than average - twice in the week, and the fact that the disciples didn't fast while with Jesus while John's disciples fasted often. I've only gotten to page 3 of the comments and there have been some great discussions here! My thought, fast when God calls you to fast - on the Day of Atonement and on other days that He lays on your heart. Look at church history with interest but only involve yourselves in the traditions where you find they agree with the Scriptures. We, each of us,is responsible for carrying on the message of Christ to the future, and I sure don't want the message I carry forward to perpetuate tradition, rather I want it to perpetuate what living the truth in this generation looks like. In that vein, look at Leviticus around chapter 23 and get an idea of what cycle of celebrations God Himself suggested to His people. This would be a good period of time to look at the preparation for the Passover, especially in light of what Jesus Himself showed us about it with His life example. It may take these remaining weeks (roughly the period of Lent) to study and realize how deep this can get so that our hearts and minds are ready. Some groups follow the singular example of Jesus Christ and celebrate His last supper as a once a year communion with an intensity that I find compelling. No matter how often we take this cup/bread, may we show forth His death and the grand purpose and outcome, may we realize that we are taking in His life and participating in His body, and may that work in us an ongoing purpose and a life of obedience. While you are in Leviticus, look at the remaining celebrations in the cycle and see how beautifully the plan of salvation is displayed annually.

Good morning, Ravippe, You've asked a really astute question. I haven't read through the other answers but here's what comes to mind when I consider your post. What you've asked boils down to the normal and natural what's-in-it-for-me that humans ask. No criticism there, just a normal thing. Your brain, like all our brains, was designed by God to consider and conclude. So it doesn't come down to the masses, it comes down to you as an individual. I'm not convinced you will get the evidence you need for a conclusion in society or in the little pieces that the churches teach. I recommend a deep dive into the Scriptures, because that's the written evidence that we have about who God is, at least if you are considering JHWH, the God of the Bible. So, when you read the written evidence to consider it for yourself, how do you see it? I'll provide some thoughts on how I see it, but the bottom line is really how you see it. I'm just offering some suggestions here that might be helpful. It looks to me like the bottom line with God is that He wants a relationship with us, individually. Think Adam, Abraham, Moses. It looks like after that, He wants a relationship with us as a community of people who all have an individual relationship with Him. The Hebrew people and the story of the Exodus are an interesting example of this. So God makes people with the ability to think for themselves and draw conclusions and behave accordingly, and He tells people what will work for the best outcome in normal life and what will work for the best relationship possible. It pretty much comes down to this: what do you want more than anything, and what are you willing to do, give, or pay to secure this outcome? It's not so much that it's up to God. He's already given us everything needed for life and godliness if we know what can be known of God and through our knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and how Jesus showed us the Father. Examples for this kind of obedience could include these: Abraham believed God when God told him to leave his hometown. He believed in God's mercy when he discussed his concern for Lot's family living in Sodom. He believed God when God asked for the token of obedience that would foreshadow God's own Son becoming the sin offering for all of us once for all. Or how about the 3 Hebrew boys in the Book of Daniel who said that while God was able to deliver them from the furnace for refusing to bow to other gods, they were going to obey whether or not God DID save them? The way I saw it as a late teen hearing this good news that Jesus died for my sins - this is too big a deal to trust anyone's words on the matter. If this is real, God will be found if you seek Him. What's that first commandment? Love the Lord your God with all your heart. If that is the goal of your life, you won't be disappointed because you will be motivated from the inside to keep seeking, keep knocking, and keep asking. You can never exhaust this search but you can go deeper into Who God IS and more solid into what He said, and you can trust every word that He said. It's an entirely different matter if you are actually only interested in doing things your own naturally limited way, not seeking something further and better, and just hoping for a get-out-of-jail-free card. I don't mean any insult here by saying that, just pointing out the evidence as I see it from studying the written words and listening to what Jesus actually said. It does appear that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and that God promises to draw near to the humble of heart. I haven't read the replies you've received so far, so I'm not directing any comments to anything that anyone else has offered. I will note that in life there are lots of Pharisees who will want to mold you into their way of thinking, and I caution you that this is actually all up to you in the end if you want to be molded into the image of Christ in you, transformed by the renewing of your mind when you study what He says and learn how wise and wonderful God really is, how His words make sense out of life. The first step is indeed faith, a preliminary foundation that He is and that He will reward your search, a decision on your part that you can trust HIM Who spoke everything into existence and made man in His image. You have the Scriptures to study this for yourself and draw your own conclusions. If you lack a Bible, let that be known. I can't imagine any believers on this forum would not want to help you obtain one. It's just my perspective, I haven't sited the several scriptural concepts I've mentioned, but they are there and we really have no other secure foundation other than what God has to say about things. I hope this helps, and I hope well for you, Ravippe.

It might be that the government got into the business of regulating marriage in order to have authority to keep the community stable, by legislating things like not being too young, not being too closely related, and providing for laws that address the transfer of property if there are no previously decided plans. One would think that those kinds of sensible expectations would be natural to all people, but apparently somewhere along the line it wasn't. Unfortunately other aspects were legislated that didn't make sense, like forbidding inter-racial marriage back in the 1970's. Not all states have the same rules, and it's an interesting study.

One important reminder is that Paul wrote letters in response to situations going on in the local groups, or answering questions those local groups asked him. As someone put it, you need to remember that you are reading a letter addressed to someone else. So we are necessarily missing part of the story. Paul would have taught in accordance to the "Holy Scriptures" which are able to make you wise unto salvation (as he said to Timothy), and not in contradiction to it, showing how Jesus fulfilled what was written. So it might be good to be grounded in the old testament concepts, because that's all the "Holy Scriptures" they had when Paul was writing his letters. What important concepts can you pick out from the law, prophets, songs, proverbs, and stories that would help you understand this section of Paul's letter to the Corinthians? What does the law say, and why? What might have been different in the Corinthian culture that just wasn't fitting with the way God had always had them doing their life and culture? Why might it be important to make any comments to the Corinthians about this? I've always been hesitant to come down to a firm decision since I wasn't there to see why Paul might want to address this concern or what it might mean, and he didn't put it in his overall "gospel according to Paul" to all the locations, which makes me think all the more that it was a local cultural type of question, maybe something in their culture that made this situation more disruptive than helpful. I can hardly imagine Paul NOT wanting the women to learn and be all that they could be in Christ as members in His Body. Just my thoughts.

Some people take the fact that Zacharias (Luke's gospel) was in a certain order of priests, who would have had a specific rotation of service, which would have his interaction with Gabriel, and from there extrapolate that it is quite likely that Jesus was born at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. If you've read in the OT much, you could see where this God-with-us birth would have appropriately fit here, as His death for us took place at the Passover. It wasn't part of their tradition to celebrate birthdays from what I can tell, so the fact that Jesus was born, but not his annual celebration of birth, was the important point. There is no record in the NT of anyone celebrating His birth on an annual basis, and there is a history of later influence into the traditions of the original Christians. By the first few hundred years, we had quite the track record of adding religion to the story. It sounds like you are asking about Epiphany. By the way, the Jews had a calendar that was very different than ours. Their "New Year" was in the late summer/fall, although the first of their months was in the spring. Take a good look at it. Leviticus is a good place, and around the 23rd chapter might be the first place I'd look. You'll likely find you have more questions, but a good look in there will help you see the logic of their calendar. And that's the calendar, more or less, that influenced life in the time and culture when Jesus walked on earth.

I've heard about the pagan roots of Christmas for years because when I was *much* younger, a relative was part of the Jehovah's Witness congregation. So when I came to Jesus Christ and put my trust in Him to forgive my sins and began to study the Bible for myself, I realized the Jehovah's Witness relative was indeed was telling the truth about the holidays and that there just wasn't Scriptural support for what Americans (since this is where I live, I'll limit it to here) were doing as their custom. And of course, today isn't the Christmas of our pasts either. Families that survived the Great Depression had Baby Boomers and between them saw a wave of prosperity that made commercializing Christmas an easy task. Now we have a kind of anti-religion thing going on where it's OK to have a tree and lights but not OK to really have an honest discussion in the general public forum about the Christ of Christmas. We can talk about peace and good will, lol, but it might not get us anywhere if we happen to be of the opposing political party these days. But we've also had a couple of generations grow up with increasing media influence and often much less family interaction, so things are in general getting somewhat skewed as we've become indoctrinated by the constant barrage. But I digress. With this holiday so entrenched in our culture and in our marketplace and economy, I believe it'll be with us for quite some time. Still, it begs the question, in the light of things God was reported to have said about cultures and traditions, whether we really should take a closer look at the reality of what we are doing. Will God really be OK with our justifications and reasons? Did He sanction the holiday to begin with, since after all it's about the birth of Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son? Did He ever give us any indication what He thought of particular holidays? For me the clincher was realizing that God did indeed speak to His special people (and more than anything I want to be part of that group that God calls His) to warn them not to even inquire into the cultures of the land He was giving them, certainly not to emulate them. He clearly told them He didn't want those celebrations incorporated into their lives. At that point, no matter how much I'd tried to spiritualize and Christianize the pagan roots of the holiday, I realized that for me, I could no longer be part of Christmas. I can celebrate that Jesus was born, and I do. I can celebrate that Jesus died for my sins, and I do. I can take on an approximation of the holy days that God commanded, and I have also begun to do this. I appreciate the family love and expressions of good will people give this time of year - and would that we were that kind to each other every day of the year! You know, I can't trifle with the real and living God - He is a consuming fire, and I want to lean as heavily as I can on obedience to what He says because of the great love with which He loved us, and I want to emulate the obedience of Christ as best I can. The Father was pleased with His obedient Son. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for our sins, but what in the world would make us even think that God wants us to stay there? Deuteronomy 18 and Jeremiah 10 are good places to find verses about what God thinks of the customs of the pagans. Leviticus 23 is a good place to see what He laid out for His own. Yea, there are plenty of places in the stories and the prophecies where it may look like God was upset with the traditions He gave them and changed His mind about them, but on close look, it's easy to see God was only upset when they were really missing the point (or refusing to obey it) which led them down the wrong path to an unstable society where they abused and killed their own children, repeatedly going through this same cycle He warned them about before they ever settled beyond the Jordan. It's there. Read it for yourself. Make up your own minds. I have no dog in the fight and no need to convince you. I happen to agree with the concept that it could be really unwise to ignore what we've been doing, it might always be a good idea to do it the way God says, and it's up to you to make up your own mind and walk your own walk. I looked at it for years...and it might be that you also have years left to look at it. Grow daily. One way we show ourselves as His is to love the brethren. One way we show ourselves to be His is to keep His commandments. (Sounds like 1 John to me.) Let's do at least both those.

I just checked it out, Figure of Eighty. Looks like they started arguing already. I was hoping for the stories, and I'm still holding out hope! Thanks for replying!

I am interested to hear from the folks that don't celebrate Christmas. I wonder why you don't and whether you take on any other December holidays instead. I'd like to hear your story, what you do and why you do it. Feel free to include what you think is right or wrong, but I'd appreciate it greatly if you would keep arguments off this particular thread and maybe start a new thread for that. (There's a place for drawing lines, but for this thread, I was hoping it would just be our stories. Fair enough?) I'm also curious about a recent statement that someone made that Jesus would have celebrated Hannukah, so if that's part of your story, elaborate on why you think that was the case. Thanks for sharing your stories!

It is an awkward place when the churches don't speak about the things that are purely Scriptural. There is a place for behaviors (we can't start stealing, lying, and carousing and consider it a Scriptural standard, right?) and there is a big place for encouragement. Both the positions of warning and encouragement are founded. But the fellowship - that is a tough one. Repose offers the solution I've been trying. If you are in a large congregation, here are some options I'd consider if you want to reach out to the people in that congregation. Talk to the pastors/leadership about your hopes for increasing fellowship opportunities and see what happens with this. For one thing, this isn't just YOUR need. You aren't going there to complain about the ache in your heart but rather the real and scriptural need for people to interact. The small groups concept is usually well received and promoted by the large congregations. If you get a negative response, that will also tell you what you need to know. At this meeting, it would be good to develop a plan, and the leadership can speak to this initiative from the pulpit. One plan to reach people quickly in that hectic between services change-out is to greet people with a something in your hand to give them so they can follow up once they are home, like a business card, flyer, or invitation in an envelope. Or you could stay for both services for several weeks for the opportunity to meet more people. Or the leadership may want to bring others into this idea and have several of you as leaders for the fellowship groups. If it doesn't go over well with the church leadership, you can always run an ad on places people look (newspaper, radio, free spots, www.meetup.com or the like) and see what could happen outside of the church walls as a non-church affiliated place for people to gather. Maybe a Bible Study, maybe a social forum of some kind, in your own area. One idea around here lately was called "Raw Scriptures," and the idea was to just read through the Bible at weekly meetings. It has formed the basis for a sense of community, but be prepared for it to go slower than you'd like. I don't know if this reply fits your situation, but it's the answer that came to mind. If you find other good ideas out there, feel free to add them. I'm in much the same place. I hope it goes well with you, HikerMom!

I hear you, Jayne. It's a hard read in places. Our hearts have been so hard. But it was the same Eternal and only God who lovingly gave those stern rules. Jesus followed that law of love when asked about the woman caught in the very act of adultery, showing us how it was intended. (I've always wondered why they let the man go free and only brought the woman, but I've also wondered if that detail of the story speaks volumes.)

The odd thing I found is that when Jesus broke the bonds and set me free, what was happening in my heart was a desire to do what He said - not for the sake of earning this wonderful salvation, but as a joyful response! There are so many of the laws that make sense in some way or other, if we just look. Like women wearing that which pertains to a woman and a man wearing that which pertains to a man. I mean, who can't do that? Why even say so? Well, fast forward to today and you can see where the confusion of the precious roles of gender can really create chaos in our minds. No matter what transgendering surgeries can do, every DNA molecule is right there telling the truth. We'd have been better off just celebrating our gender, and there is much to celebrate! What we wear as male or female is not mandated, but that we present publicly as what we are is mandated, for the good of all. I really like the building of a safety fence around the top of your house so nobody can fall off. Or returning your neighbor's animal. Those things work. Who *can't* keep those? They demonstrate that there is indeed a right way to behave. And they reinforce that to a degree we often want to shirk, we are our brother's keeper. Love works no harm against his neighbor. Are we "saved" by the blood of the ONE obedient Son in order to worship idols, tell lies, sleep with our neighbor's spouse, murder innocent people? Well, obviously not. So we really are "saved" from our past sins in order to finally from the inside out want to serve God acceptably and with the reverence of obedience that shows we trust Him.