Jump to content

BibleGuy

Members
  • Content Count

    85
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

31 Neutral

About BibleGuy

  • Rank
    Junior Member

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Male
  • Interests
    Bible

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. Yes, I try to keep cool and friendly....and learn together with others.... blessings....
  2. Hi there! Thanks for writing.... "You can't be a child of the Devil, if you are born again. " Agreed....those are two DIFFERENT families for sure.... "So, your misuse of the verse is typical of a Legalist." Not sure why you say I "misuse" the verse....or maybe you were referring to another person posting here? I simply cited 1Jn.3:10 it as evidence that John places SOME people into the category of "child of the devil". Now, WHICH people does John place into the "CHILD OF THE DEVIL" category? Well, we see that those who do NOT DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.3:10) would be included in the "child of the devil" category. That's the point I was trying to make....and I don't think I'm misusing that verse at all..... And why do you insinuate that I might be a "Legalist"? After all, legalism is bad! Or maybe you were referring to another person posting here? LEGALISM may be defined as SEEKING SALVATION BY WORKS WITHOUT FAITH....and of course, that's unbiblical.....(Gal.5:4-5) So, I OPPOSE legalism.....and I'm glad to see that you evidently also oppose legalism.....although, you might have a different definition of LEGALISM in mind.... "But what is worse, is that you say that righteousness is something that we do, as our means of keeping ourselves saved." Well, I'm not the one who said that righteousness is "something we do"...JOHN said righteousness is something we DO ("ποιέω", 1 Jn.2:29;3:7,10). Jesus also describes righteousness as something that we DO in obedience to even the least of the Torah commandments (Mt.5:19-20). Jesus also applies Dt. 6 to us...and Dt. 6:25 confirms that Torah-obedient righteousness is something we DO. "all our righteousness is as a filthy rag". That is Paul talking, you can find the verse in Romans." Yes, righteousness is like a filthy rag IF you are walking in INIQUITIES (from Is. 64:6)....so don't walk in iniquity! OBEY Torah! "if we had any righteousness of our own, as you claim we can have and should..... then Jesus could have saved himself from some PAIN AND DEATH, by not having to come down here as the Bread from Heaven to give us the "gift of righteousness"." JESUS paid the price that only JESUS could pay..... Yes, we receive the free gift of righteousness.....(Rom.5:17) BUT! Righteousness is also something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7,10). BOTH. TOGETHER. FREE GIFT. AND SOMETHING WE DO. By the way, NOTHING we do is good enough apart from the free gift! That's why we need BOTH. TOGETHER. "we have NO righteousness. " Then you just opposed 1Jn.2:29;3:7,10. Please stand corrected by this. Thanks. "The Apostle Paul said of himself that he is "BLAMELESS" regarding keeping the law. Philippians 3:6. " Paul was referring to the time BEFORE he KNEW CHRIST. That's NOT what Paul requires of us. Paul requires that we obey all Torah (2Ti.3:16) AND that we follow Christ (1Cor.11:1). BOTH. TOGETHER. " (You're not.) " Says who? Jesus said we can be perfect (Mt.5:48) and that it's easy! (Mt.11:30). "So, if Paul is blameless, then why did he say all HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that you say is so important, is "dung". is manure.? in view of God's Righteousness?" Because I'm not talking about Paul's faithless "righteousness" prior to Paul's faith in Christ. I'm talking about Paul's Torah-obedient righteousness which he requires WITH faith in Christ. You've confused these two. Paul says ALL TORAH (2Ti.3:16) should rebuke and correct and train your behavior in righteousness, and Paul ALSO expects us to have faith in Christ (Rom.5:1). Paul requires LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER, for justification. Paul even says that TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very word of faith which he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8). So don't confuse these two DIFFERENT things: 1. Paul's worthless faithless "righteousness" prior to faith in Christ, 2. Paul's valuable faithful Torah-obedience in Christ AFTER faith in Christ. "Paul said the only Righteousness that matters, that matters to God, is CHRIST's Righteousness, that you can't achieve by your LIFESTYLE. " Wrong. You've ignored Hab. 2:4 which Paul quotes repeatedly (e.g., Rom. 1:17). Remember? Paul says we live by FAITH (citing "אֱמוּנָה" in Hab. 2:4). And what is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" by which Paul says we must live? ANSWER: TORAH! (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for proof of the TORAH-UPHOLDING conception of "אֱמוּנָה" Paul upholds). After all, Paul APPLIES the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16), and the Psalms require TORAH (e.g., Ps. 1;19;119;etc...). Surely you won't disobey Paul? Agreed? Moreover, Paul says the church is built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES (1Cor.12:28).... and Apostle Paul requires all Torah (1Cor.7:19) and Apostle John requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3) And Apostle Peter even applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly (1Pe.1:16) and Apostle Stephen requires all Torah (Ac.6:10-15) And Apostle John says righteousness is something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7,10).... So these are all problems with your position.... Please refine your position to come into better alignment with the Scriptures I've set before you... Thanks. blessings...
  3. Well, yes, Judaizing is bad.....remember Peter's hypocrisy? I'm sure we agree that was bad.... Anyway....blessings....
  4. Hi there! I think I'm missing something....what were you talking about? Thanks.... blessings....
  5. Hi there! Thought I'd share a few thoughts, if that's ok....(feel free to ignore me if you're not interested, though.....) "Do you even understand what "putting people under the law means"?" There are TWO laws... 1. The law of disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15) 2. The law of obedience and life (Dt.30:11-15) Of COURSE we are not under the law of disobedience and death. Jesus expects us to obey and live! (Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referring to TORAH)....not disobey and die. Paul says we are NOT under Law #2 (i.e., the law of sinful disobedience and death, Rom.8:2)....but Paul still requires OBEDIENCE (i.e., Law #1: 2Ti3.:16;1Cor.7:19). "It means that a person has "fallen from Grace", first of all." You're talking about LAW WITHOUT FAITH, which Paul opposes in Gal. 5:4-5. Of COURSE it's bad to seek LAW WITHOUT FAITH. Agreed! "It means that this person is not trusting in JESUS to keep them saved" Yes, we should trust in Jesus for salvation. "they are only trusting in Jesus to begin their salvation. " We should CONTINUE to trust in Jesus who CONTINUES to show us salvation. "THEN, this Legalist, who has fallen from Grace, starts posting and preaching verses and theology trying to prove that a Born Again Christian has all these things to keep doing or they will NOT STAY SAVED." Well, it IS possible for religious people to oppose Torah and be cast away (Mt.7:21-23). It IS possible to move from the RIGHTEOUS category to the WICKED category (Eze.18) based on actions you DO. So, it IS true that we should obey Jesus who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19). " the law, and enduring to the end, and holding onto your faith......all this, all these type things are being substituted for JESUS and the Blood Atonement by the Legalist," Actually no. It's not SUBSTITUTION....it's ALL OF THE ABOVE! FAITH AND GRACE AND THE SPIRIT AND LOVE AND JESUS AND THE FATHER AND THE SPIRIT AND THE BLOOD AND ATONEMENT AND PERSEVERANCE ALL TOGETHER! "Paul would consider it cursed of God Theology, according to Paul, in Galatians 1:8., is not something that they seem to notice." Agreed. So let's not replace one thing for another....let's do ALL that the Bible requires! (including all Torah, Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3) "doing doing doing, the Torah, to try to SAVE THEMSELVES," I can't speak for others....but JESUS is the one who saves (Mt.1:21). And we ALSO save ourselves and others (1Ti.4:16). BOTH. TOGETHER. ""fallen from GRACE". And in that epistle to the Galatians, Paul says of their teaching that its heresy, " Yes, it's BAD to "fall from grace". And, "fallen from grace" refers to those who seek justification by law WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.5:4-5). Of COURSE law without faith is bad. That's why Paul requires justification by law (Rom.2:13) and faith (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER. BOTH. TOGETHER. The Galatians were trying to do law WITHOUT FAITH....and that's REALLY BAD. Paul requires BOTH....law AND faith...TOGETHER. "You need the BLOOD OF JESUS and the Gift of Righteousness, ONLY." Sounds good! But as we mature in Christ, we grow in faithful obedience to ALL His commands....including Mt. 5:19, which requires ALL Torah. "Salvation is not : The Cross + The Torah. " Sounds good! You can be saved through the work on the cross....even if you never even heard the word "Torah"! But as we mature in Christ, we grow in faithful obedience to ALL His commands...including Mt. 5:19, which requires ALL Torah. "Its not The Cross + The 10 Commandments. " Sounds good! You can be saved through the work on the cross....even if you never even heard of the 10 Commandments. But as we mature in Christ, we grow in faithful obedience to ALL His commands...including Mt. 5:19, which requires ALL Torah. "Salvation is God coming to earth, to die for our sin on The Cross, becoming our sin bearer, and give us IN ITS PLACE, God's very own Righteousness. as "The Gift of Righteousness"." Sounds good! Righteousness is a GIFT (Rom.5:17). But righteousness is also something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20). BOTH concepts are true. Righteousness is a GIFT. Righteousness is something we DO. BOTH. TOGETHER. I guess that's my theme today! (both...together....) "Jesus ALONE, is the Eternal Life that we HAVE, if we are born again." Very true! And that Jesus teaches that we should obey the Torah of Moses (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.6:40;10:25-28;etc.) blessings...
  6. "Jesus is the author of a New Covenant. The TORAH is NOT this...." Then tell us why Jeremiah states that TORAH ("תּוֹרָה") passes directly into the New Covenant? (Jer.31:33) thanks! blessings...
  7. "I believe you said we are required to obey them all. " Sure....to the extent possible in our present diaspora, of course....knowing that 100% obedience will not occur again until AFTER our diaspora ends (Dt.30:1-8). "The decrees, statutes, and ordinances pertain to the Jews only, I would argue." I've never seen a clear proof of that claim..... ALL Torah is for ALL Israel (Mal.4:4), and you are not excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12). And the Spirit leads us to obey even the ORDINANCES (Eze.36:27)....so I'm not sure why you're trying to distinguish COMMANDS from decrees or statutes or ordinances.... It's ALL part of the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3)...and it ALL passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). blessings...
  8. Hi there! Sounds like you're saying that LAW and GRACE are "diameterically opposed"? Well, GRACE extends to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6); and HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Nu.12:3). Also, Paul who said we are saved by grace (Eph.2:8-9) also said we are justified by doing Torah (Rom.2:13). Jesus is our foundation. Jesus requires Torah (Mt.5:19). I'm thinking that GRACE and LAW pleasantly go together, according to Biblical Scripture. blessings...
  9. Hi there! "If you have to follow them at all, you are doing so legalistically. " Actually, maybe false. Depends upon your conception of "legalism". For example, we may define LEGALISM as THE OBEDIENCE OF LAWS TO GAIN SALVATION APART FROM FAITH. And, given this definition, LEGALISM is clearly unbiblical (Gal.3:11;5:4-5). Yet Paul still requires all Torah (2Ti.3:16) and Jesus does too (Mt.5:19) and John does too (1Jn.5:3) and Stephen does too (Ac. 6:10-15). So, the BIBLICAL position is: 1. Legalism is bad (Gal.3:11;5:4-5). 2. We SHOULD obey Torah (Mt. 5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Ac.6:10-15). That's not LEGALISM....rather, it's obedience which flows from LOVE (1Jn.5:3;Jn.14:15;Dt. 6:5,25). "Two commandments encompass them all. "Love the Lord with all your heart....and love your neighbor..." And why? Not because we have to," Well, Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to you...and Dt. 6 requires ALL Torah (Dt 6:25). And I suppose you do not "have to" obey Torah....I mean....you can sin if you want! But I don't recommend it.... "believe and love. " Yes, BELIEVE Mt. 5:19 (so do what is says!) LOVE Jesus (Jn.14:15).....so OBEY His teachings! (Mt.5:19) "That is the essence of the Gospel, which Paul said we would be judged by." And that Gospel is the word of faith which he preaches.... Hey wait...what's this? Paul says TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very substance of the FAITH which he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8). "Anyone who preaches a different gospel is accursed. " True....the Galatians pursued a false gospel of works without faith....that's REALLY bad! Paul requires WORKS (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER for justification... Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5). Not faith alone (says James 2:24). But LAW AND FAITH TOGETHER. Jesus AGREES that faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23). Faith is of TORAH (Dt. 32:20). Faith is of Torah (Ps.119:30,86,138). "Grace supersedes the Law;" No supersessionism. Rather, BOTH TOGETHER! GRACE is in Ex. 33:13...and it inspires Moses to seek God's WAYS (Ex.33:13) which are in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3). Same grace. Same Torah. Both then and now. "how many animals do you sacrifice daily for your sins?" Surely you know that Jesus has not yet restored the Levitical sacrifices! (Mal.3:4) Paul CONDONED sacrifices (Ac.21). Thousands of Christians were zealous for all Torah (Ac.21:20), thus including sacrifices. Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7). Sacrifices WILL return (Zec. 14;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3:4;Dt.30:1-8). We simply can't obey everything while in diaspora......but our diaspora WILL end (Dt.30:1-8) when we return to inherit the land promised to US (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29). "Jesus already did that once, for all. " Sure, Jesus is the once-for-all sacrifice for sins..... AND, Jesus comes to RESTORE the Levitical covenant of animal sacrifices (Mal.3:4) "as it was in the days of old, as in former years". We have MUCH to anticipate in the future! blessings...
  10. Yes, Roar....our fellow Christian friends are struggling to reconcile the Biblical Scripture we set forth....compared against the traditions and theology they've inherited....... Our Christian establishment didn't get to it's present condition overnight....and we must be patient to share with others....it will probably be several centuries until we get onto the same page, corporately, throughout the entire Body of Christ..... I'd say only about 0.1%, or less, of Christians, globally, understand that they are Israelites who should obey Torah... So, we've done a good job the past 2000 years getting out the fact that Jesus is the Savior..... But we've scarcely begun to DISCIPLE others (Mt.28:19-20) in ALL the teachings of Jesus (thus including Mt. 5:19). We've got a long way to go, baby! But hey....my eschatology takes Dt. 7:9 literally....thus we probably have MANY MORE thousands of years to go, until things wrap up..... I could be wrong....but I dare to take Dt. 7:9 LITERALLY....even though it's NOT a popular position. And a LITERAL THOUSAND GENERATIONS could be something like 40,000 years? But we've only had about 3500 years since Moses....so we've got a REALLY long way to go! blessings....
  11. " an impossible system that neither they nor their Fathers could keep." You're talking about the ANTI-TORAH yoke mentioned in Ac.15. That's not Torah. The yoke that JESUS gives us is easy (Mt.11:30), because obeying ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19) is easy! It's NOT too difficult (Dt.30:11). Moses was not lying. The ANTI-TORAH yoke of Ac. 15 was the Pharisees who required TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as a condition of acceptance of Gentiles as being SAVED. Torah does NOT require this anti-Torah yoke. Torah merely requires that we obey TORAH! I don't see adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision as a Torah requirement. Paul evidently agrees, applying ALL TORAH to Gentiles (1Cor.7:19) while excluding adult-circumcision as a requirement (because Torah does not even require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision). "It was given to “ shut the mouths” of those who thought they could be justified before God By keeping . " Careful! Paul said we are JUSTIFIED by Torah (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1), together. So, Paul's critique of Torah is a critique of FAITHLESS-TORAH-OBEDIENCE.....not FAITHFUL Torah-obedience. After all, Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16). Jesus does too (Mt.5:19). “ By The Law NO MAN will be justified” . Of COURSE we are not justified by law without faith. Thus, Paul requires justification by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER. Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5). Not faith alone (says James 2:24). But BOTH. TOGETHER. "The Righteous ( justified people) shall LIVE by FAITH." Careful! That's Paul quoting "אֱמוּנָה" in Hab. 2:4! And what is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" required byPaul? Answer: TORAH! (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps.119:30,86,138 for proof). Jesus agrees: Faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23). Again, Torah requires FAITH (Dt.32:20). Again, Torah requires FAITH (Dt. 18:15). Torah and faith go TOGETHER. "You and your wife could just Love each other and let things happen naturally." Whatever works for your marriage! But John says LOVE for God requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3). Jesus says LOVE for Him requires OBEDIENCE (Jn.14:15)...thus obedience to Mt. 5:19....(Torah!) Jesus cites Dt. 6 (Mt.22:37). Dt. 6 proves that LOVE (Dt. 6:5) requires ALL TORAH (Dt. 6:25). "That’s the relationship God wants with “ HIS” wife- the Church." Careful! CHURCH = ISRAEL! (Ac.7:38;Dt. 4:10). And we ISRAELITES obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10). “Believe and Love” Belief (faith) without works is DEAD (Jas.2:26). Works of what? (Hint: Mt.5:19) Again, LOVE requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3;Dt. 6:5,25;Jn.14:15;Mt.5:19). "why didn't He say and reveal through Paul or Peter or John AFTER His Resurrection That we must obey Torah ? He didn’t. " OOPS! Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16). Paul requires ALL Torah (1Cor.7:19). Paul condones a vow to prove he obeys Torah (Ac.21); YOU should imitate that model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9). Paul says we are justified by Torah (Rom.2:13). Paul AFFIRMS the legitimacy of Torah-obedient GENTILES (Rom. 2:27). Paul affirms the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as TORAH (Jer. 31:33). Paul says the New Covenant includes Torah to be obeyed "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom. 11:26-27). Paul says Torah (Dt. 30:14) is the very word of faith which Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom. 10:8). Paul says Torah is good. so be good and obey Torah! (Rom. 7:12). Paul says Torah is holy. Be holy and obey Torah! (Rom.7:12). Paul says Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12). DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20). So obey Torah! Paul says Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14). Be spiritual! Obey Torah! Paul says STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) which means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7). Paul CONTINUES to serve Torah (Rom.7:25). Paul says Torah-disobedience is BAD (i.e., it's of the flesh, Rom.8:7). Paul says we should be of the SPIRIT (which OPPOSE the Torah-disobedient flesh, Rom.8:13). Thus, the Spirit leads us to OBEY (not disobey!) Torah. Paul affirms Christ (1Cor.11:1). Christ requires Torah (Mt.5:19). John requires Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3) as proof of love for God. Peter even explicitly applies Lev. 11 to you! (1Pe.1:16). “ Believe and Love “ was all He left us with." Actually, the New Covenant inaugurated in Christ's blood (Lk.22:20) is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). Torah requires more than "believe and love"..... blessings....
  12. 613 is the wrong number....Dt. 4:15 did not even make the list! I am categorizing them all........but I doubt I'll get 613 for a total count..... I'm not so sure I even have the 10 commandments memorized in order....but if you cite any one, then I'd immediately know it! You could say it's written upon my heart.... blessings....
  13. Glad we're on the same page! blessings to you too....
  14. "No collections of wisdom and rules are gonna save anybody ." Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of ETERNAL LIFE (Lk.10:25-28). "The Torah leads to the Savior " True (Dt. 18:15). And the Savior points right back to the Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28;etc.) "That is it’s main purpose and value." Well....there are MANY purposes! Remember? Torah is good (Rom.7:12). Be good...so obey Torah! Torah is holy (Rom.7:12). Be holy...so OBEY Torah! Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12). DO righteousness.....so OBEY Torah! Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14). BE Spiritual. So obey Torah! Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4). So STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH! The New Covenant is given as Torah (Jer.31:33)...so should we disobey that very Torah? Of course not! "The Law artificially points to and tries to control behavior that comes naturally to a New Heart that is motivated by Love." Well ok....but LOVE requires TORAH-OBEDIENCE (1Jn.5:3;Jn.14;15;Mt.5:19;Dt.6:5,25). "Paul said that the Law was “ weak” in that it has no power to save" Sure...law WITHOUT FAITH is rather useless.... That's why Paul require Both! We are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.... Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5). Not faith alone (Jas. 2:24). But BOTH. TOGETHER. " why not go to where the Power is at — the Gospel!" Great! The Gospel is the word of faith preached by Paul.... Hey what's this? TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8). "Paul also said that the Law was good. IF one knows how to use it." It's pretty simple: Do you OBEY or DISOBEY? (Hint: Torah-disobedience is REALLY bad....Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42) So obey! "The Law served its purpose in my life......it shut me up and showed me I had to have a Savior.Im done with it .I let the Holy Spirit guide me now." OOPS! That very Spirit leads you to OPPOSE the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13)...thus the Spirit leads you to OBEY Torah! Again, the Spirit testifies you should OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16). Again, the Spirit leads us to obey ALL TORAH ORDINANCES (Eze.36:27). In the New Covenant, the Spirit leads us to obey Torah "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited by Paul at Rom.11:26-27). " I obey more laws by accident now than I ever did trying to live by a Code." well....that's good! But you won't accidentally obey the SMALLEST of Torah commands (Mt.5:19) unless you actually study Torah and grow in faithful obedience to it.... blessings....
×
×
  • Create New...