BibleGuy

Right! Love fulfills the Torah. Why? Because if you choose to love, then you choose to obey all the rest of Torah too. (sorry guys, no more pork!) Love FULFILLS (not replaces/terminates/cancels) Torah. That's why we obey God's commands (PLURAL, 1Jn.5:3;1Cor.7:19), not merely Lev. 19:18. After all, Jesus' teachings DO actually apply to us: Mt.5:19;23:23 Blessings...

No.

Thinking Maimonides counted wrong. For example, he excluded Dt. 4:15, right?

Hi there! Jesus did not say His teachings only apply here or there, depending on audience. Generally, Jesus' commands apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20). And he commands us to abide in Him (Jn.15:4)....which means we obey His teachings...which include Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28) So Mt. 23:23 was spoken to Jewish religious people....but the default assumption (absent occasional evidence to the contrary in specific cases) should be that general teachings of Jesus apply to all disciples, given Mt. 28:19-20 + Jn.15:4. Also, yes, Jesus' teachings were taught BEFORE the cross. Shall we thus ignore them? Surely not. Again, Mt. 28:19-20 + Jn.15:4 carries Jesus' teachings through the cross into the future for all disciples of all nations. Jesus came to die for our sins, yes. But also much more! Jesus came to gather together the scattered people of Israel...including any Gentiles/foreigners willing to join the family! Thus Jesus cites Is. 56 in Mk. 11, confirming this critical purpose. And yes, Jesus came to make Torah EASY and LIGHT (Mt.11:30), because it IS easy, and not too difficult, Dt. 30:11. It was the corrupted religious leaders who invented TONS of man-made rules in ADDITION to Torah....and that made Jesus very angry (because, among other things, ADDITIONS to Torah are a violation of Dt. 4:2....and also because it made it very difficult for true seekers to learn a proper walk of faith in the Lord). Sure, the GREATEST commands are Dt. 6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18....but those are not the ONLY commands....they're just the greatest! Just upholds even the SMALLEST of commands (Mt.5:19-20;23:23). AND, Scripture never said the greatest commands REPLACE the others.... Sure, Dt. 6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 FULFILL the rest of Torah......but why? Because if you obey Dt.6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 properly, then you will CHOOSE to obey all the rest as well in all detail....that's WHY Dt.6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 FULFILL (not replace!) the rest of Torah. FULFILL does not mean replace or abolish. After all, Jesus explicitly said NOT ABOLISH (Mt.5:17).....thus it's still in force! A husband can daily fulfill his duties as husband of his wife. But the next day, they are still married! FULFILLED does not mean CANCELLED or TERMINATED or NO LONGER IN FORCE. FULFILLED means to "make full"....you make something full by DOING it...not by pretending it no longer applies. Jesus' reply (Lk.10:25-28) was an answer to the question about eternal life...and Jesus confirms that Torah-obedience leads to eternal life. Why? Because if you obey Torah properly, you'll walk in faith in response to God's eternally saving grace, trusting Him to make complete provision for your sins, ultimately expressed via the Prophet of Dt. 18 (Jesus!) who came to remove those sins through the sacrifice of Himself on the cross, and who came to teach us how to continue to properly obey Torah with faith, mercy, and justice (Mt.23:23). Blessings!

Not really sure what you've got in mind.... Can you tell me?

I'm still stuck on "cyclical"... What exactly does "cyclical" have to do with "the prophet yeshayahu/Isaiah" ?

"cyclical proposition" ??? Meaning what?

I would say Col. 2:23 opposes man-made religion....not intentional worship of God. After all, we SHOULD worship God (Rev.22:9), even in accordance with Torah (Ex. 34:14). You wrote: "in heart and from the heart, not the letter." My response: Wrong! "in the heart" means YOU OBSERVE IT (Dt. 30:14). You just contradicted the Hebraic conception of "in the heart". Not good. You wrote: "how we should keep the Law, the way of the Spirit, " My response: Remember? The Spirit testifies Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb.10:15-16) which means we OBEY it (Dt. 30:14). The Spirit leads people to OBEY Torah ordinances and statutes (Eze. 36:27). The Spirit opposes the Torah-disobedient flesh (Rom.8:7), thus the Spirit upholds Torah-obedience. Jesus' words are Spirit (Jn.6:63) and include Torah (Mt.5:19-20). Let's affirm this Torah-upholding Spirit. You wrote: "keeping the letter of the Law is in itself a failure to keep the Law. " My response: Nonsense. Why would God be mad if people obeyed Him? Don't be silly! God is routinely angry at Israel due to DISOBEDIENCE. You got it backwards! Please get back to the Bible. When God tells us to obey, he means OBEY! (Dt. 30:10-11)...he doesn't mean: "ignore My commands because, hey, it's just an allegory...." You wrote: "Nobody under the Law could keep the Law of God" My response: Wrong again. Moses is NOT a liar. It is NOT TOO DIFFICULT (Dt. 30:11). Paul also walked orderly according to the law (Ac.21:23-26). Paul said we can and should imitate him (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9). So we can obey Torah too. Paul even said that uncircumcised people can obey Torah (Rom.2:26). It's not too difficult. Paul told us to keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19)....Paul didn't say "Don't bother....it's totally impossible....so just forget about it!" John told us to keep God's commands (1Jn.5:3)....John didn't say "Don't bother...it's totally impossible....so just forget about it!" You wrote: "Nobody under the Law could keep the Law of God, because they did not have the new nature of Christ within to be able to keep it." My response: Wrong again. Josiah obeyed all Torah from the heart (2Ki.22:35). Hezekiah obeyed Torah too (2Ch.31:21). Let's not make things up..... You wrote: "Jesus did not give us a new checklist to keep...." My response: True....it's really just the same checklist we already had (Lk.10:25-28;Mt.5:19-20). That is, all Torah! You wrote: "That it needs to come naturally from the new nature/spirit within the believer, our conscience and behaviour being informed and unctioned by Christ's Spirit within. " My response: Right! That's how we obey Torah! And you're right! We who do the law will be justified (Rom.2:13). Glad you cited that one! Blessings...

But if you agree Levites will be restored in the future, then they ARE sons of Aaron, right? Or am I missing something?

Hi! Dt. 30:1-8 is a prophecy of Moses....not an "allegory". Shame on you for opposing Moses! See how you must deny the literal words of God to accommodate your antinomianism? That's NOT a good approach. Once you play the "allegory" game, you can ignore whatever Scriptures you don't like! Now you must ignore Eze. 36 and Eze. 37 too...and MUCH MORE. You do so at your own peril. And you oppose the very prophetic foundation of the church in so doing (Eph.2:20). Paul would not bother walking orderly according to the law (Ac.21) if it's just an "allegory" and nothing more. You haven't proven that allegorical interpretations supplant literal interpretations. The truth is that allegorical interpretations COMPLEMENT (but do not supplant) literal interpretations. You can do better than that. Try again. You wrote: "promised land is an allegory" My response: Wrong again! The prophets assure us, over and over again, that we (Israel) will again return to the land. LITERALLY. Dt. 30:1-8 is just one of dozens of examples. Also in Ezekiel....for example, Eze. 36 and Eze. 37...and much more. Jesus promised we literally inherit the land (Mt.5). Paul said we share in the promised land-inheritance (Gal.3:29). If Abraham does not literally come back to earth to inherit the physical land promised to him, then God is a liar.... DON'T GO THERE. Jesus said Abraham will return. I'll stick with the Bible. You wrote: "And it is a conditional promise, or else they will perish. (Deut 30: 18)" My response: Well make up your mind....if Dt. 30:18 is allegory, then it doesn't really mean what is says, in which case the "conditional promise" just allegorically represents something completely different. Or, if it's literally a conditional promise, then it's NOT JUST AN ALLEGORY! Either way, you're inconsistent. AND, Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT conditional...it's a GUARANTEE we will again return to obey 100% of all Torah. You just don't like it. That's why you're trying to explain it away. Also, Dt. 30:14ff is cited by Paul at Rom.10:8, confirming that the word of faith which Paul preaches is a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith. Paul teaches TORAH + FAITH together. Not Torah without faith. Not faith without Torah. But FAITH + TORAH together. After all, faith without works is dead (Jas.2:26). And law without faith causes you to fall from grace (Gal. 5:4). That's why faith is also needed (Gal.5:5). And Rom. 10:4 ("τέλος") means Christ is the GOAL or AIM or PURPOSE (not termination) of the Torah. We've got examples of "τέλος" in the LXX which are clearly NOT cases in which the meaning is "termination", btw. After all, Torah points to Christ (Dt. 18). And Christ points to Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28). Of course! Christ IS the Torah-made-flesh (Jn.1:14). Christ did not come to cancel Himself. Religious people who oppose Torah are at risk of being cast away (Mt.7:21-23). DON'T GO THERE. Blessings... PS You still haven't answered my 80 Biblical objections to your antinomianism... :-)

And most Christians don't understand basic truths they NEED to understand: 1. We are ISRAELITES 2. We should obey TORAH And converting a person to a better systematic theological position can require LOTS of evidence.... Paul modeled EXTENSIVE LONG periods of discussion (Ac.20:7-9). It's ok for me to imitate that pattern, thanks for your concern! (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9)

You wrote: "None of the prophets you cited mention a restoration or authority given to the sons of aaron." My response: Sure it does. Dt. 30:1-8 prophesies a future restoration of 100% (ALL) Torah. So of course that includes restoration of the priestly Levitical role described in Mosaic Torah. Same in Jer. 33.....restoration of Levitical priestly activity. Again in Is. 66....restoration of Levites as priests. Even Rev. 20:6 implies restoration of Levitical priestly activity during the Millennium. You wrote: "And nowhere in Torah were there 2 simaltaneous orders of priesthood." My response: The Melchizedek order began in Abraham's time (if not sooner). It was not terminated....but still exists to this day. The Levitical Priesthood also existed during a subset of that period of time (from the time of Moses to the present, and even the future as well). This proves both priesthoods can COEXIST. Again, Yeshua had ALREADY functioned as Melchizedek Priest when Levitical sacrifices CONTINUED in Ac. 6:7 and in Ac. 21. They COEXIST. The Levitical sacrifices apply to the earthly tabernacle, but Yeshua's superior sacrifice applies to the heavenly tabernacle (Heb. 9:23-24), which is a copy of the earthly tabernacle. Heb. 9:23 shows the earthly tabernacle being cleansed by animal blood, while the heavenly tabernacle is cleansed by Christ's blood. That's a COEXISTENCE of Levitical sacrificial activity (in the earthly tabernacle) with Melchizedek priestly activity (in the heavenly tabernacle). You wrote: "But only the lawless one desires to shed innocent blood in the guise of a son of aaron." My response: Rather, LAWFUL ones desire to shed animal blood in accordance with 100% of all Torah. That's what happened in Moses' day, David's day, Yeshua's day, Paul's day, and that's what is prophesied to occur again in the future, with God's approval, in Dt. 30:1-8, for example. blessings...

You wrote: "There is no coexisting dual priesthood." My response: Of course there is! The Melchizedek Priesthood existed since at least the days of Abraham, and existed during the time of Moses as well (when the Levitical Priesthood ALSO existed). There's your proof they COEXIST. Again, Jesus functioned in the Melchizedek Priesthood, yet the Levitical Priesthood activities continued (e.g., Ac. 6:7;Ac. 21). Again that's proof that both priesthoods COEXIST. And yet again, Jesus is our Priest of the order of Melchizedek even into the future, even though the Levitical Priesthood will again also be restored (given Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Zec.14). There's THREE different examples confirming COEXISTENCE of the Levitical and Melchizedek Priesthoods. You wrote: "The levites ie sons of aaron are no longer the Head of the body serving in the earthly tabernacle nor will be ever again far as I understand." My response: Levitical Priesthood activities will be restored: (given Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Zec.14). You wrote: "the Change where in Yeshua is The head of the body. " My response: Yeshua has always been the head of the body. The body is ISRAEL. Christ is the Head.....always has been. Blessings...

Paul walked orderly according to the law (Ac. 21). Paul told Gentiles to imitate that pattern (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9). ALL Torah was upheld by Jesus (Mt.5:19-20) and it applies to ALL disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20). [Not merely the "Noachide" laws.] Blessings...

There's a checklist in Lk.10:25-28...... The Temple will return (Dt. 30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Eze.40-47). Many believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac. 6:7). We WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled). Interesting!