BibleGuy

Right! Love fulfills the Torah. Why? Because if you choose to love, then you choose to obey all the rest of Torah too. (sorry guys, no more pork!) Love FULFILLS (not replaces/terminates/cancels) Torah. That's why we obey God's commands (PLURAL, 1Jn.5:3;1Cor.7:19), not merely Lev. 19:18. After all, Jesus' teachings DO actually apply to us: Mt.5:19;23:23 Blessings...

No.

Thinking Maimonides counted wrong. For example, he excluded Dt. 4:15, right?

Hi there! Jesus did not say His teachings only apply here or there, depending on audience. Generally, Jesus' commands apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20). And he commands us to abide in Him (Jn.15:4)....which means we obey His teachings...which include Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28) So Mt. 23:23 was spoken to Jewish religious people....but the default assumption (absent occasional evidence to the contrary in specific cases) should be that general teachings of Jesus apply to all disciples, given Mt. 28:19-20 + Jn.15:4. Also, yes, Jesus' teachings were taught BEFORE the cross. Shall we thus ignore them? Surely not. Again, Mt. 28:19-20 + Jn.15:4 carries Jesus' teachings through the cross into the future for all disciples of all nations. Jesus came to die for our sins, yes. But also much more! Jesus came to gather together the scattered people of Israel...including any Gentiles/foreigners willing to join the family! Thus Jesus cites Is. 56 in Mk. 11, confirming this critical purpose. And yes, Jesus came to make Torah EASY and LIGHT (Mt.11:30), because it IS easy, and not too difficult, Dt. 30:11. It was the corrupted religious leaders who invented TONS of man-made rules in ADDITION to Torah....and that made Jesus very angry (because, among other things, ADDITIONS to Torah are a violation of Dt. 4:2....and also because it made it very difficult for true seekers to learn a proper walk of faith in the Lord). Sure, the GREATEST commands are Dt. 6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18....but those are not the ONLY commands....they're just the greatest! Just upholds even the SMALLEST of commands (Mt.5:19-20;23:23). AND, Scripture never said the greatest commands REPLACE the others.... Sure, Dt. 6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 FULFILL the rest of Torah......but why? Because if you obey Dt.6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 properly, then you will CHOOSE to obey all the rest as well in all detail....that's WHY Dt.6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 FULFILL (not replace!) the rest of Torah. FULFILL does not mean replace or abolish. After all, Jesus explicitly said NOT ABOLISH (Mt.5:17).....thus it's still in force! A husband can daily fulfill his duties as husband of his wife. But the next day, they are still married! FULFILLED does not mean CANCELLED or TERMINATED or NO LONGER IN FORCE. FULFILLED means to "make full"....you make something full by DOING it...not by pretending it no longer applies. Jesus' reply (Lk.10:25-28) was an answer to the question about eternal life...and Jesus confirms that Torah-obedience leads to eternal life. Why? Because if you obey Torah properly, you'll walk in faith in response to God's eternally saving grace, trusting Him to make complete provision for your sins, ultimately expressed via the Prophet of Dt. 18 (Jesus!) who came to remove those sins through the sacrifice of Himself on the cross, and who came to teach us how to continue to properly obey Torah with faith, mercy, and justice (Mt.23:23). Blessings!

Not really sure what you've got in mind.... Can you tell me?

I'm still stuck on "cyclical"... What exactly does "cyclical" have to do with "the prophet yeshayahu/Isaiah" ?

"cyclical proposition" ??? Meaning what?

I would say Col. 2:23 opposes man-made religion....not intentional worship of God. After all, we SHOULD worship God (Rev.22:9), even in accordance with Torah (Ex. 34:14). You wrote: "in heart and from the heart, not the letter." My response: Wrong! "in the heart" means YOU OBSERVE IT (Dt. 30:14). You just contradicted the Hebraic conception of "in the heart". Not good. You wrote: "how we should keep the Law, the way of the Spirit, " My response: Remember? The Spirit testifies Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb.10:15-16) which means we OBEY it (Dt. 30:14). The Spirit leads people to OBEY Torah ordinances and statutes (Eze. 36:27). The Spirit opposes the Torah-disobedient flesh (Rom.8:7), thus the Spirit upholds Torah-obedience. Jesus' words are Spirit (Jn.6:63) and include Torah (Mt.5:19-20). Let's affirm this Torah-upholding Spirit. You wrote: "keeping the letter of the Law is in itself a failure to keep the Law. " My response: Nonsense. Why would God be mad if people obeyed Him? Don't be silly! God is routinely angry at Israel due to DISOBEDIENCE. You got it backwards! Please get back to the Bible. When God tells us to obey, he means OBEY! (Dt. 30:10-11)...he doesn't mean: "ignore My commands because, hey, it's just an allegory...." You wrote: "Nobody under the Law could keep the Law of God" My response: Wrong again. Moses is NOT a liar. It is NOT TOO DIFFICULT (Dt. 30:11). Paul also walked orderly according to the law (Ac.21:23-26). Paul said we can and should imitate him (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9). So we can obey Torah too. Paul even said that uncircumcised people can obey Torah (Rom.2:26). It's not too difficult. Paul told us to keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19)....Paul didn't say "Don't bother....it's totally impossible....so just forget about it!" John told us to keep God's commands (1Jn.5:3)....John didn't say "Don't bother...it's totally impossible....so just forget about it!" You wrote: "Nobody under the Law could keep the Law of God, because they did not have the new nature of Christ within to be able to keep it." My response: Wrong again. Josiah obeyed all Torah from the heart (2Ki.22:35). Hezekiah obeyed Torah too (2Ch.31:21). Let's not make things up..... You wrote: "Jesus did not give us a new checklist to keep...." My response: True....it's really just the same checklist we already had (Lk.10:25-28;Mt.5:19-20). That is, all Torah! You wrote: "That it needs to come naturally from the new nature/spirit within the believer, our conscience and behaviour being informed and unctioned by Christ's Spirit within. " My response: Right! That's how we obey Torah! And you're right! We who do the law will be justified (Rom.2:13). Glad you cited that one! Blessings...

But if you agree Levites will be restored in the future, then they ARE sons of Aaron, right? Or am I missing something?

Hi! Dt. 30:1-8 is a prophecy of Moses....not an "allegory". Shame on you for opposing Moses! See how you must deny the literal words of God to accommodate your antinomianism? That's NOT a good approach. Once you play the "allegory" game, you can ignore whatever Scriptures you don't like! Now you must ignore Eze. 36 and Eze. 37 too...and MUCH MORE. You do so at your own peril. And you oppose the very prophetic foundation of the church in so doing (Eph.2:20). Paul would not bother walking orderly according to the law (Ac.21) if it's just an "allegory" and nothing more. You haven't proven that allegorical interpretations supplant literal interpretations. The truth is that allegorical interpretations COMPLEMENT (but do not supplant) literal interpretations. You can do better than that. Try again. You wrote: "promised land is an allegory" My response: Wrong again! The prophets assure us, over and over again, that we (Israel) will again return to the land. LITERALLY. Dt. 30:1-8 is just one of dozens of examples. Also in Ezekiel....for example, Eze. 36 and Eze. 37...and much more. Jesus promised we literally inherit the land (Mt.5). Paul said we share in the promised land-inheritance (Gal.3:29). If Abraham does not literally come back to earth to inherit the physical land promised to him, then God is a liar.... DON'T GO THERE. Jesus said Abraham will return. I'll stick with the Bible. You wrote: "And it is a conditional promise, or else they will perish. (Deut 30: 18)" My response: Well make up your mind....if Dt. 30:18 is allegory, then it doesn't really mean what is says, in which case the "conditional promise" just allegorically represents something completely different. Or, if it's literally a conditional promise, then it's NOT JUST AN ALLEGORY! Either way, you're inconsistent. AND, Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT conditional...it's a GUARANTEE we will again return to obey 100% of all Torah. You just don't like it. That's why you're trying to explain it away. Also, Dt. 30:14ff is cited by Paul at Rom.10:8, confirming that the word of faith which Paul preaches is a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith. Paul teaches TORAH + FAITH together. Not Torah without faith. Not faith without Torah. But FAITH + TORAH together. After all, faith without works is dead (Jas.2:26). And law without faith causes you to fall from grace (Gal. 5:4). That's why faith is also needed (Gal.5:5). And Rom. 10:4 ("τέλος") means Christ is the GOAL or AIM or PURPOSE (not termination) of the Torah. We've got examples of "τέλος" in the LXX which are clearly NOT cases in which the meaning is "termination", btw. After all, Torah points to Christ (Dt. 18). And Christ points to Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28). Of course! Christ IS the Torah-made-flesh (Jn.1:14). Christ did not come to cancel Himself. Religious people who oppose Torah are at risk of being cast away (Mt.7:21-23). DON'T GO THERE. Blessings... PS You still haven't answered my 80 Biblical objections to your antinomianism... :-)

And most Christians don't understand basic truths they NEED to understand: 1. We are ISRAELITES 2. We should obey TORAH And converting a person to a better systematic theological position can require LOTS of evidence.... Paul modeled EXTENSIVE LONG periods of discussion (Ac.20:7-9). It's ok for me to imitate that pattern, thanks for your concern! (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9)

You wrote: "None of the prophets you cited mention a restoration or authority given to the sons of aaron." My response: Sure it does. Dt. 30:1-8 prophesies a future restoration of 100% (ALL) Torah. So of course that includes restoration of the priestly Levitical role described in Mosaic Torah. Same in Jer. 33.....restoration of Levitical priestly activity. Again in Is. 66....restoration of Levites as priests. Even Rev. 20:6 implies restoration of Levitical priestly activity during the Millennium. You wrote: "And nowhere in Torah were there 2 simaltaneous orders of priesthood." My response: The Melchizedek order began in Abraham's time (if not sooner). It was not terminated....but still exists to this day. The Levitical Priesthood also existed during a subset of that period of time (from the time of Moses to the present, and even the future as well). This proves both priesthoods can COEXIST. Again, Yeshua had ALREADY functioned as Melchizedek Priest when Levitical sacrifices CONTINUED in Ac. 6:7 and in Ac. 21. They COEXIST. The Levitical sacrifices apply to the earthly tabernacle, but Yeshua's superior sacrifice applies to the heavenly tabernacle (Heb. 9:23-24), which is a copy of the earthly tabernacle. Heb. 9:23 shows the earthly tabernacle being cleansed by animal blood, while the heavenly tabernacle is cleansed by Christ's blood. That's a COEXISTENCE of Levitical sacrificial activity (in the earthly tabernacle) with Melchizedek priestly activity (in the heavenly tabernacle). You wrote: "But only the lawless one desires to shed innocent blood in the guise of a son of aaron." My response: Rather, LAWFUL ones desire to shed animal blood in accordance with 100% of all Torah. That's what happened in Moses' day, David's day, Yeshua's day, Paul's day, and that's what is prophesied to occur again in the future, with God's approval, in Dt. 30:1-8, for example. blessings...

You wrote: "There is no coexisting dual priesthood." My response: Of course there is! The Melchizedek Priesthood existed since at least the days of Abraham, and existed during the time of Moses as well (when the Levitical Priesthood ALSO existed). There's your proof they COEXIST. Again, Jesus functioned in the Melchizedek Priesthood, yet the Levitical Priesthood activities continued (e.g., Ac. 6:7;Ac. 21). Again that's proof that both priesthoods COEXIST. And yet again, Jesus is our Priest of the order of Melchizedek even into the future, even though the Levitical Priesthood will again also be restored (given Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Zec.14). There's THREE different examples confirming COEXISTENCE of the Levitical and Melchizedek Priesthoods. You wrote: "The levites ie sons of aaron are no longer the Head of the body serving in the earthly tabernacle nor will be ever again far as I understand." My response: Levitical Priesthood activities will be restored: (given Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Zec.14). You wrote: "the Change where in Yeshua is The head of the body. " My response: Yeshua has always been the head of the body. The body is ISRAEL. Christ is the Head.....always has been. Blessings...

Paul walked orderly according to the law (Ac. 21). Paul told Gentiles to imitate that pattern (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9). ALL Torah was upheld by Jesus (Mt.5:19-20) and it applies to ALL disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20). [Not merely the "Noachide" laws.] Blessings...

There's a checklist in Lk.10:25-28...... The Temple will return (Dt. 30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Eze.40-47). Many believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac. 6:7). We WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled). Interesting!

Then be sure to tell God to inspire a smaller Bible next time..... Thanks!

Jesus likes checklists too (Lk.10:25-28), sufficient for eternal life. Do you argue with Jesus' checklist? Moreover, Rom. 8:7 says the FLESH disobeys TORAH, and that's bad. Therefore, Torah-obedience is GOOD! The very verse (Rom. 8:7) you cited supports my Biblical position! Thanks for bringing it up again. The SPIRIT testifies Torah should be written upon your heart (Heb. 10:15-16). The SPIRIT leads us to obey Torah statutes and ordinances (Eze. 36:27). The SPIRIT is opposed to the Torah-disobedient flesh (Rom.8:7), thus the Spirit upholds Torah-obedience. The SPIRIT was strong in Stephen's life, and Stephen was falsely accused of opposing Mosaic Torah (Ac. 6:13), confirming that the SPIRIT led Stephen to OBEY Torah (not oppose it). Jesus' words (Mt. 5:19-20) are spirit and life (Jn. 6:63). Do you oppose the Spirit of Jesus' words? The mind of Christ does not oppose Christ's words! Christ's words confirm we LIVE by Torah (Mt. 4:4;Lk.4:4), not by ignoring it! ALL Scripture (thus including Torah, 2Ti.3:16) applies to you, to correct and rebuke and train your behavior in righteousness. Do you agree with these Scriptures? I avoided making a "list" to make you happy, by the way.... Blessings...

Hi again! Let’s see here….I’ve now raised 68 objections to your antinomianism (anti-Torah theology). You’ve still not addressed any of those objections. Let’s take a look at your message from a few days ago, which I still need to address…. 69. You wrote: “Could be stubbornness and pride” My response: Yes, pride is bad. In fact, Psalm 19:13 confirms that pride (Heb. “זֵד”) is bad. Those with “זֵד” are characterized by Torah-disobedience (Ps. 119:21,51,69,78,85). So let’s not have pride. Let’s obey the Torah instead! But wait, then why do you oppose Torah-obedience? That’s what people with pride (“זֵד”) do….right? 70. You wrote: “could be spiritual immaturity” My response: Yes, we want to be truly spiritual. And, TORAH is spiritual (Rom.7:14), and we should earnestly desire spiritual things (1 Cor. 14:1). So you should earnestly desire Torah! But then, why do you oppose it? 71. You wrote: “could be...bad teaching” My response: True. We want GOOD teaching to correct us. In fact, ALL SCRIPTURE (thus including Torah, 2Ti.3:16) should be used to teach and correct and rebuke us. But then, why do you disagree with Torah-obedience? 72. You wrote: “He knows and judges the heart.” My response: Yes, and that judgment includes casting anti-Torah religious people away (Mt. 7:21-23). So then, why would you want to be an anti-Torah religious person? In fact, God’s very judgments (Heb. “מִשְׁפָּט”) are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3). So, why would you oppose God’s judgments? And what should be in our heart? TORAH! (Thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8). See also Jer. 31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16. 73. You cited Heb. 7:11-19 My response: Of COURSE the Melchizedek Priesthood is superior to the Levitical Priesthood. The Levitical sacrifices merely atone (cover) sin….whereas Jesus (through His shed blood) fully takes sins away. Agreed! But the Levitical priesthood was not replaced by the Melchizedek Priesthood. Rather, they COEXIST. After all, they coexisted in Moses’ day too. The “change” (Gr. “μετατίθημι”, Heb. 7:12) is a TRANSFER of focus from the inferior Levitical Priesthood to the superior Melchizedek Priesthood in which Jesus functioned. But Levitical sacrifices continued not only to be practiced by 1st century animal-sacrificing priests (Ac.6:7) and were upheld by literally THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers (Ac. 21), but they were also even explicitly upheld by Paul who paid for a vow to affirm Paul’s ongoing Torah-obedience (Ac. 21)…..and Paul expected us to imitate that behavior (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9). Jesus explicitly affirmed the legitimacy of sacrificial activity too (Mt. 5:24), and this applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:19-20). Future prophecies also guarantee restoration of Levitical priestly sacrificial activity (Dt. 30:1-8;Zec. 14;Eze. 40-47;Mal.3;Is. 66;Jer.33). Thus, the Levitical and Melchizedek Priesthoods CONTINUE to coexist, even into the New Covenant era. Of course! After all, TORAH passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16)…..Let’s stop pretending that the writer of Hebrews was pro-Torah in Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16, but then he sometimes changed his mind elsewhere in the book of Hebrews. And OF COURSE Jesus sets aside (Heb. 7:18) the Levitical Priesthood instructions when pursuing His Melchizedek duties! After all, Jesus is not a Levite! He is of the order of Melchizedek! It would make no sense for Jesus to follow Levitical rules when performing Melchizedek priestly duties. Are the Levitical priestly duties therefore cancelled now for all Levites? Of course not! Re-read the Scriptures I cited here in point #73 for proof. 74. You cited Rom. 2:25. My response: Keep reading! Rom. 2:27 has Paul affirming the legitimacy of even GENTILES obeying Torah! That simply supports my position….thanks! Moreover, don’t forget Rom. 2:13 where Paul says that we who obey the Torah will be justified. 75. You claimed: “and as scripture establishes, no one can keep the law” My response: Was Moses a liar? Moses said it is NOT TOO DIFFICULT (Dt. 30:11). And Paul applies that very context to YOU! (citing Dt. 30 at Rom. 10:8). Thus, Paul AGREES that Torah-obedience is not too difficult. Sure, sometimes we sin….but Torah has provisions for that…..so no big deal….. And those provisions point to our need for a permanent removal of sin….which is precisely what Jesus did for us. Thus, His blood cleanses us from all sin. 76. You wrote: “and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;” My response: The Hebraic conception of “circumcised in heart” means to OBEY TORAH! Just look at the context of Dt. 10:16 and Dt. 30:6. And OF COURSE physical circumcision (according to the letter of the law), without true and faithful Torah-obedience from a circumcised heart, is useless. Agreed! This merely confirms my position. Thanks! 77. You cited 1 Cor. 7:19. My response: 1 Cor. 7:19 tells us to KEEP GOD’S COMMANDS! Where are those commands found? THE WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES! (1Ki.2:3). Thanks for supporting my position. After all, Torah does NOT require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision…..so it makes no difference whether an adult Gentile convert gets circumcised or not…..because Torah does not even require it. What matters is obeying God’s COMMANDS (1 Cor. 7:19 referencing Torah, 1 Ki.2:3). Torah requires eighth-day circumcision (Lev. 12:3), not adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision. 78. You cited Gal. 5:1-14. My response: I agree 100%! It’s perfectly consistent with my position. Thanks for citing it. 79. You wrote: “The priesthood has been changed from the tribe of Levi to a new priesthood from the tribe of Judah....the tribe Yeshua/Jesus was born into. ” My response: No. It’s a TRANSFER of focus (see above), not a change in Torah. And, Yeshua’s priesthood is properly of Melchizedek, not Judah. Melchizedek precedes Judah. 80. You wrote: “And circumcision is one example where the Law was changed....no longer circumcision of the flesh but circumcision of the heart. ” My response: You just made that up. Paul never opposed eighth-day circumcision as required in Lev. 12:3. AND, “circumcision of the heart” means TORAH-OBEDIENCE! Just look at the context of Dt. 10:16 and 30:6 and Jer. 4:4 for proof. So yes! Be circumcised in your HEART so that you obey Torah from the HEART (not merely as a useless outward performance). 81. You wrote: “Another example where the Law was changed is where Jesus spoke about lusting after a woman....the letter of the Law only says not to commit adultery....but the Law being changed to be a Law of the heart requires more than what the letter says. ” My response: Wrong again. Jesus merely expanded upon the true meaning and purpose of Torah. Nothing stated by Jesus contradicts or changes Torah. After all, God commands us to OBEY TORAH (Dt. 30:10). Therefore, we should DESIRE to obey Torah. Therefore, it’s against the Torah to desire to disobey Torah. Therefore, it’s against the Torah to desire to violate Ex. 20:14. Thus, it’s against the Torah to lust after a woman who is not your wife. Therefore, Mt. 5:28 is nothing new! It’s already implicit within Torah itself. Jesus was simply affirming the perpetuity of both explicit AND implicit Torah commands and principles. Thus, Mt. 5:28 is NOT a “change” of Torah! (that’s just your unbiblical imagination at work again….) Mt. 5:28 is merely an expounding of Torah. After all, Jesus upholds ALL Torah (Mt. 5:19-20), and that applies to you too (given Mt. 28:19-20). 82. You wrote: “Keeping of Sabbaths is another example...Paul wrote to let it be according to one’s own conscience and to let no one judge us, ie, rule over us, in that matter....if it were still required by God to keep the Sabbath day in the literal sense Paul would of course have said so and taught it.....we actually keep the Sabbath Law when we keep it in heart by having entered the rest of God through faith, ceasing from our own works and walking in His rest every day. (“There remains therefore a sabbath rest to the people of God....”) ” My response: Wrong again! Paul never opposed Sabbath Torah. You just made that up. Sure, there was a debate regarding whether every other day of the week should be the same (in certain respects) as the Sabbath day…..and since that’s not what Torah commands……you are thus free to decide for yourself on that one. However, you are NOT free to ignore Sabbath Torah. Rather, we should obey it, to the extent possible, of course, during our present diaspora. And Paul DID require Sabbath Torah (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19 are examples). John required Sabbath Torah too (1Jn.5:3 is an example). And we don’t “cease from our own works every day”….rather, Paul encouraged people to work! (Eph.2:10)….after all, faith without works is dead (Jas.2:26). And, Heb. 4:9 tells you explicitly that Sabbath rest remains for us! Thus it’s good to rest on the Sabbath (7th day of the week, by the way), as Torah tells us to do. Furthermore, Heb. 4:7 cites Ps. 95:7 which references the children of Israel who were expected to OBEY TORAH! Thus, Hebrews 4 is continuing to uphold Torah-obedience. And Heb. 4:12 (the very context from which you quoted!) upholds the WORD OF GOD. Guess what? TORAH is the word of God (Dt. 1:3;5:27-33). Thus, Heb. 4:12 upholds Torah-obedience too. And Heb. 4:14 (the very context from which you quoted!) upholds JESUS. Guess what? Jesus upholds all Torah (Mt. 5:19). Looks like the very passage you reference (Heb. 4) supports my position. Thanks for bringing this up! 83. You wrote: “These are all examples of the new way of the Spirit, in other words.” My response: You mean the SPIRIT who leads us to obey Torah ordinances? (Eze. 36:27) And the SPIRIT who testifies Torah should be written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-16), not terminated! And the SPIRIT of Jesus who sends forth Torah-teachers (Mt. 23:34)…. And the SPIRIT of God who commands Torah in His words (Dt. 1:3;5:27-33;etc.) And the SPIRIT which is opposed to Torah-disobedient flesh (Rom.8:7), thus we should obey Torah in the Spirit! And the SPIRIT whose fruit is peace (Gal. 5:22) which is given to those who love (not cancel!) Torah (Ps. 119:165)…. YES! Let us uphold this Holy Spirit who leads us to grow in faithful obedience to Torah! AMEN! 84. You wrote: “The BIBLE says the dividing wall and enmity are due to the ordinances....and I believe it because I see and experience it” My response: Good job! I refuted this line 3 times already…..thanks for ignoring the Biblical evidence. I’ll refute it for the 4th time now…..ready? You should know it by now….I’ve already told you this! There is NO TORAH LAW dividing Jew from Gentile in Christ. The canceled commandments in Eph. 2:14-15 is MAN-MADE DOGMA! It’s not Torah…..it’s MAN-MADE DOGMA (Gr. “δόγμασιν”) that gets cancelled. TORAH is not DOGMA. Paul is confirming that Gentiles are free to be part of Israel, just as much as a fellow Israelite, and partake in the COVENANTS (PLURAL! Eph.2:12) That includes the NEW Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, and the Abrahamic Covenant……ALL of which Gentile disciples of Christ may partake in! 85. You wrote: “such as on this thread and attending services at some Messianic places of worship. We're supposed to be a NEW MAN, neither Jew nor Gentile, and not divided into two camps, but ONE.” My response: Yes, the “Messianic” places of worship in America are sometimes wild and crazy, and can be quite unbiblical…..and often NOT safe places for genuine seeking Christians to learn. But why be surprised? Of COURSE the Adversary will try to screw up God’s restoration of truly authentic Torah-obedient faith and practice! After all, the Adversary is the spirit of LAWLESSNESS (that’s TORAH-lessness)….so of COURSE the Enemy hates Torah-obedience with a passion (and you do too, it seems….hmmm……) Anyway, yes, it makes no difference whether you are genetically “Jew” or “Gentile”, because we are all ONE in the Messiah of Israel. And we are all ISRAELITES in Christ who should grow in faithful obedience to Torah. Sadly, many of the “Messianic” groups in America oppose this Biblical teaching. We have much work to do! But hey, it’s good to rest on the Sabbath too….. Ok, we now have about 80 or so objections to your anti-Torah position. Be sure to ignore them all…… And then just cite more passages of Scripture instead. Blessings to you…….

Hi there! The church is ISRAEL ("ἐκκλησία" refers to ISRAEL in Ac. 7:38). The Torah is given to Israel (Mal.4:4). Thus, Torah is given to the church. Let's jump into the details! 1. Nothing in Ac. 15 states that Gentile converts should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah AFTER coming to Christ. So, Ac. 15 doesn't support your position. 2. Rom. 14 talks about people of weak faith who eat vegetables (Rom.14:2), but there is no Torah requirement that only vegetables be eaten. Therefore, Rom. 14 doesn't support your position either. 3. Plus, that SAME PAUL applies God's commands to you (1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3). So, we can't just cherry-pick a couple verses and ignore the broader pro-Torah context of Paul's writings. 4. Hebrews 8 explicitly states that TORAH passes into the New Covenant (citing Jer. 31:31-33 at Heb. 8:8-10, and again at 10:15-16). Can't get any clearer than that. 5. You wrote: "The apostles even broke their laws....Paul and the apostles never try to make gentiles follow Moses law." My response: The apostles did not model Torah-disobedience. So, you are incorrect on that claim too. Here's a very small sampling of the evidence: Paul modeled Torah-obedience, and even paid for a vow to prove that Paul walked in obedience to Torah (Ac. 22); AND! Paul told Gentiles to imitate that pattern (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9). John told us to obey God's commands (1Jn.5:3) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3). Peter explicitly applies Lev. 11 to us (1Pe.1:15-16). Stephen, full of the Spirit, was falsely accused of opposing Mosaic Torah (Ac.6:11-13). Thus, Stephen UPHELD obedience to Torah! THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers walked in obedience to Torah, as they should (Ac.21:20). And Paul paid for a sacrificial vow to confirm the legitimacy of such obedience. Jesus upheld ALL Torah (Mt.5:19-20), and this applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:19-20). The New Covenant is given as TORAH! (see "תּוֹרָה" in Jer. 31:31-33, cited affirmatively at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16). Paul likewise upholds this Torah-laden New Covenant (1Cor.11:25). Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHING APOSTLES (see "γραμματεύς", Mt. 23:34). Please don't oppose Jesus' Torah-teaching apostles! 6. Paul said the word of FAITH which he preaches is TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (thus applying Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8). That's explicitly pro-Torah. 7. What Torah instruction do you think Peter violated? 8. Jesus did not change the Passover. It was ALWAYS about Jesus. 9. You wrote: "HOWEVER, I would say that all the rules Paul makes in his various letters definitely fill the void. " My response: Of course Paul's teachings affirm Torah. I've already shown you this. For example, the fruit of the Spirit is peace (Gal.5:22); and PEACE is given to those who love (not oppose!) Torah (Ps. 119:165). And yes, Paul applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16). In fact, Paul says ALL Torah should correct, rebuke, and train your righteous behavior (2Ti.3:16). So indeed, the fruit of the Spirit is TORAH-OBEDIENCE. First we receive the Spirit, then we grow in faithful Torah-obedience as the Spirit teaches us. 10. You wrote: " To say that we are not under Jewish law doesn't mean we don't have laws." My response: We are not "under" Torah....but we should still obey it! To be "under" Torah, in Paul's view, is to be under the sinful condemnation we deserve for disobeying it. But there is no condemnation in Christ. Are we thus free to disobey Torah? Of course not. Torah passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16). Why would you disobey the very TORAH of the New Covenant in which you partake? That makes NO SENSE at all. 11. You wrote: " I believe what Moses was ( the lawgiver ) Paul is to the Church. " My response: You have wrongly assumed that "church" is distinct from "Israel". In fact, we find "ἐκκλησία" in the LXX in reference to Israel, over and over and over again (e.g., Dt. 9:10). You've been lied to! "church" = "Israel" in general, Scripturally. Besides, how can you partake in the NEW COVENANT? ONLY if you are an ISRAELITE. After all, the New Covenant is only between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31;Heb.8). If you're not an Israelite, then you can't partake in the New Covenant. But you DO partake in the New Covenant! Thus you ARE an Israelite! And, thus, Torah is given to YOU (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16). Sorry to be officially red-pilling you.....but I have no choice but to share these truths with you: You don't know who you are (ISRAEL!) You don't know how should you live (TORAH!) THAT is who we are in Christ! 12. You wrote: "Anyway, I don't believe the law is a salvation issue. " My response: Sure, MOST Christians on the planet are blissfully ignorant of these Biblical truths. But not you! I've now shown you the Scripture.....so, for better or worse, you're now accountable for what you do with this Biblical insight. Jesus said Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28). Jesus said that anti-Torah religious people will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-13), and even worse (Mt. 13:41-42). Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (Mt.4:4), not ignore it or cancel it! Jesus said our Torah-obedient righteousness must EXCEED that of the corrupted Pharisees (Mt. 5:19-20). SALVATION is directly linked to Torah STATUTES (Ps. 119:155). Sounds like Torah and salvation are connected in very important ways! Of course, we don't EARN our salvation. Jesus paid the price we could never pay. Nevertheless, faith without works is dead (Jas. 2:26). What kind of works should have? TORAH-OBEDIENT works! (1Cor.7:19;1Jn.5:3;Heb. 8:8-10;10:15-16;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8). That's your only choice! OBEY or DISOBEY. But DISOBEDIENCE is bad (of the flesh, Rom.8:7) So obey! blessings.....

Yes, that very TORAH passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10;10:15-16). Sure, some of those Torah instructions are not presently observable. But hey, shall disobey all of it then? Surely not.... Rather, we obey what we can....knowing that in the future, we will again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled). Jesus upholds even the smallest of Torah instructions (Mt. 5:19-20). Paul upholds God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3). John upholds God's commands (1Jn.5:3) which are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3). Peter even explicitly applies Lev. 11 to us (citing it at 1Pe.1:15-16). The writer of Hebrews agrees Torah passes into the New Covenant (as I said above, Jer. 31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16). It's all over the New Testament. Paul said ALL Scripture (thus including TORAH!) should correct, rebuke, and train your behavior (2Ti.3:16). Don't worry......most of us Christians already obey all kinds of Torah principles without even knowing it! There's just a few things we Christians routinely miss.....the dietary regulations (Lev.11/Dt.14) being one such category we can easily observe (but typically don't). Anyway, hope that explains more of my Biblical position. Blessings....

To be quite honest, your words are routinely unintelligible.... Moreover, I never said "sacrifice in blood is solely responsible for all of Torah". So, my words are obviously unintelligible to you as well. Thinking we've got a serious communication break-down here.... blessings....

HI there! Glad to see you have ignored the 58 Biblical objections I've raised against your anti-Torah position thus far....thank you so much! Ok then, let's go ahead and see your latest comments: 59. You wrote: "Jesus fulfilled all those ordinances on our behalf" My response: Since Jesus walked in accordance with Torah, then so should you (1Jn.2:6;Lk.6:40). Be sure to ignore this one too....thanks. 60. You wrote: " they died on the cross in His body with Him. " My response: No. That's just your wishful thinking. The "χειρόγραφον" was nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14), not Torah. Greek for Torah is "νόμος", not "χειρόγραφον". The Torah is not a certificate of debt! Now, be sure to ignore this (even though I've told you about this 3 times now). Thanks again! 61. You wrote: "We can learn by reading them but God no longer requires that we perform them" My response: Oops! Jesus upholds even the smallest of Torah commands (Mt. 5:19). Try again, thanks! 62. You wrote: "just like the allegory of slavery/bondage in Egypt, many who were brought out of Egypt are craving to go back" My response: Nonsense. You should NOT go back to faithless Torah-obedience. That's bad. Instead, you should uphold FAITHFUL Torah-obedience. After all, Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt. 30:14) is the very word of faith which Paul preaches (applying Dt. 30:14 to you at Rom.10:8). Torah and faith properly go together.....that's why Paul (again and again and again) OPPOSES law without faith. Ok....you REALLY need to keep ignoring that one as well. I do appreciate it. 63. You wrote: " there is just no need to any more" My response: Oops! Paul applies God's commands to you (1Cor.7:19). John agrees (1Jn.5:3). And WHERE are God's commands found? Oh that's right! The WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES (1Ki.2:3). Ok....quickly delete this message.....you don't want to be thinking about these 63 Bible facts that you don't like. Thanks. 64. You wrote: "It is no longer His will." My response: Oops! God's will is to have Torah in your heart (Ps.40:8). Paul upholds the Psalms (2Ti.3:16;Eph.5:19;Col.3:16). Jesus likewise says the Psalms are Scripture which must not be broken (e.g., Jn. 10:35). Ok, now be sure to ignore Paul and Jesus....so that you can pretend the Psalms do not apply to you. Many thanks. 65. You wrote: "It's so uncanny how many are being pulled back and desire to do those things...." My response: So true! Obeying God is SO UNCANNY! It's crazy really....I mean, hey.....Jesus told us that obedience to Torah is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28). Why would ANYBODY want to believe Jesus' words? I mean c'mon man.....that's SO UNCANNY. 66. You wrote: "it's so much easier to trust in our own flesh" My response: Very true. The flesh is bad. The flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7). So Torah-disobedience is bad. So Torah-obedience is good! Ok....be sure to ignore that one again (like you have twice before....) I appreciate that...thanks. 67. You wrote: "trust in an invisible God and Saviour and die to the world. " My response: GREAT point. We should TRUST God. Those who trust in God do not rely upon deceptive worthless words (Jer.7:4-8); rather, they walk in obedience to God's commands (Jer.7:23) which, of course, are contained in the Torah (1Ki.2:3;Dt.32:46). And, those who walk in God's salvation will do God's commands (Ps. 119:166). So let's trust God, our Savior, as we walk in obedience to Torah! And let's die to the worldly nonsense that ignores this Biblical truth. Great points, thanks! 68. You wrote: "FALLEN FROM GRACE (Gal 5:4)" My response: Yes, it would be TERRIBLE to fall from grace. That's why Torah-obedience without faith is REALLY BAD. That's why Paul says that the word of FAITH which he preaches (Rom.10:8) is TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (thus applying Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8). After all, Paul upholds the New Covenant (1Cor.11:25) in which Torah is written upon your heart (Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16) so that you will OBEY IT (Dt. 30:14 cited at Rom.10:8). Besides, the Biblical pattern is to receive GRACE FIRST (Ex.33:13), and THEN we seek to know God's ways (Ex.33:13) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3). Ok.....now be sure to pray God erase this knowledge from your heart....I mean hey, why would you want to listen to Biblical considerations, right? Who in the world would ever want TORAH written in your HEART? (Jer.31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16). Let's not get crazy now..... =========================================== Okay......we're up to 68 Biblical objections to your antinomianism. Make sure you ignore them....and then just cite another passage instead. Thanks so much! Blessings....

I was noting that Heb 9:23 confirms that the earthly tabernacle is a copy of the heavenly tabernacle. And, the activity in the earthly tabernacle is in accordance with Torah (i.e., animal sacrifices), whereas the activity in the heavenly tabernacle is now in accordance with the superior sacrifice of Christ's blood. So then, the time of reformation (Heb. 9:10) refers, in context of Heb. 9, to the change in the heavenly tabernacle, NOT a change in the earthly tabernacle. Thus, Levitical Torah continues to apply, even though the superior heavenly tabernacle has been changed by the blood of Christ. That's why we see animal sacrifices CONTINUING even into the New Covenant era (Ac. 22; Ac. 6:7; Is. 66; Zec. 14; Dt. 30:1-8;Jer. 33;Mal. 3;Eze. 40-47).....because the New Covenant changes that occurred in the heavenly tabernacle do not change (or cancel) Levitical priestly sacrificial Torah requirements. blessings...

Hi! I'll get back to your earlier response, but this is shorter and quicker.... You wrote: "Not the ordinances. They were done away with, abolished in Christ's flesh, nailed to the cross. Of course we are instructed by the Law in righteousness regarding morality, honesty etc, it is all the word of God, but the ordinances are finished. Ordinances were pointing to the Messiah and heavenly realities...tutoring to Christ. No need for them any more ever since the advent of Christ in the first century and especially since the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD." My response: 51. Oops! Paul said ALL Scripture should correct and train your behavior (thus including Torah, 2Ti.3:16).....now be sure to ignore this one too....I mean hey....it's only like objection #51 to your position, right? 52. Eze. 36:27 confirms the ORDINANCES are to be obeyed by inspiration of the Spirit of God......Or do you oppose that very Spirit? 53. Heb. 9:8-10 is supposedly anti-Torah? Yet the same writer of Hebrews passes TORAH straight into the New Covenant (Heb. 8:8-10;10:15-16)? Give me a break! That's called a CONTRADICTION.......try again. You gotta do better than that.... 54. In context, the time of reformation ("διορθώσεως", Heb. 9:10) refers to the change in the HEAVENLY things, not the earthly copies of those things (Heb. 9:23). Let's stop pretending the writer of Hebrews is pro-Torah in Heb. 8:8-10;10:15-16...but then changed his mind for awhile in Heb. 9:23 and terminated Torah. 55. The same Holy Spirit of Heb. 9:8-10 inspired Stephen (during the NEW Covenant era) to uphold (not oppose!) Mosaic Law (Ac. 6:11-13). Is the Spirit confused? 56. The same Holy Spirit of Heb. 9:8-10 is OPPOSED to the flesh (Rom. 8). The flesh disobeys Torah (Rom. 8:7). So the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience. So the Spirit upholds Torah-obedience. Is the Spirit confused again? 57. The Torah was not "nailed to the cross"! I already showed you that it's the "χειρόγραφον" that was nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14), not Torah! The Greek word for Torah would be "νόμος", not "χειρόγραφον". The Torah is not a certificate of debt! But hey, be sure to ignore this one too....it doesn't fit into your preferred unbiblical theological box....so just ignore it....and then bring up the SAME old refuted line again in a few days....thanks. 58. Man-made human DOGMA "δόγμα" was abolished in Christ's flesh (Eph. 2:15), not Torah! After all, there is no Torah law preventing Gentiles from being reconciled to God in Christ. But hey, I already told you this a few days ago....and you ignored it too......so keep ignoring it......and be sure to bring up your refuted argument again in a few days....and then pretend your refuted argument is valid....and just hope and pray that other people ignore my refutation of your position....thanks. =============================== Ok...we're up to 58 objections to your position now.... Be sure to ignore them.... Thanks.....

You are right! Paul opposed the Judaizers.....because the Judaizers opposed faith. Paul taught Torah AND faith together. Paul's "faith" was a TORAH-OBEDIENT faith, not a faithless Torah-obedience. That's why Paul applies TORAH to you as the very exemplification of the FAITH which Paul preaches (applying Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom. 10:8). And OF COURSE we oppose faithless works of the law....that would be ridiculous. And you are right! The Galatians received the Spirit not because they merely obeyed laws without faith..... And that very Spirit testifies we should have TORAH written upon our hearts (not cancelled! Heb. 10:15-16) That very SPIRIT leads us to obey TORAH statutes and ordinances (Eze. 36:27). That very SPIRIT is the Spirit of GOD.....and God commands Torah (Dt. 1:3;5:27-33;etc.) You can choose FLESH or SPIRIT (Rom. 8:4-7). FLESH disobeys Torah. So the SPIRIT upholds Torah-obedience! And the Gospel is a TORAH-OBEDIENT Gospel (thus Jesus applies Torah to you, Mt. 5:19). And Christ, who was crucified, applies Torah to you (Mt. 4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34), even stating that Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28). Thanks for quoting Paul! By the way, Paul says ALL Scripture (thus including TORAH!) should correct, rebuke, correct, and train your behavior (2Ti.3:16). Blessings!