Shimshon

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You're missing any understanding about the relation of the shemita to all your calcualtions. Because of this........... I'm out. (shark tank metaphor)

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When people are judgmental they limit themselves and you both at the same time. First, I would find a less judgmental group of Christians. Second, I would seek out a good mentor. It sounds like your just starting your walk and to be loosly planted is to be quickly uprooted. First and foremost I would say maintain your faith in Jesus and the fact that the holy spirit will come and do what he has promised within you. This relationship is the foundation of your existence. Beyond this seek out those who are matured enough to serve others in love not pride. Pride says 'you are wrong, let me show you the right way'.... Love is patient, kind, long suffering and endures, it uplifts not tears down, it offers more of itself than it asks of you. Seek those who are founded in the good fruits promised by Yeshua, not those who base their foundation on what 'you' are not. In short, don't deny what you believe you are simply because others disagree with your expression of faith. Express the faith that God has given you in Messiah and seek to follow his commads as given through the holy spirit to your inner heart. If others disagree, love them as you would want to be loved, and gravitate toward others who do the same. May God bless you with just that.... peace, that surpasses all understanding.

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I'm so disappointed. I thought someone had burned the entire volume of scripture to vinyl. My son would have loved to do some turntable scratching with those, I thought! Sadly, just another kvj only thread.......

Agreed. And I will echo your comments. We are not to tear down but bear up under others. I also fellowship with a baptist church weekly. They are very interested when I lead studies in the Jewish roots of our faith. And I would never think of belittling their customs because I don't agree with them.

Your really not getting it. The symbology of the body and blood 'is in reference to' an elaborated Jewish custom. There is no seperating the two. Messiah is/was the wave offering as mentioned in Lev 23:9-14. Messiah used this Jewish commandment to symbolize His body and blood as the bread and wine, with Himself being the lamb sacirfice. Messiah taught this symbolism, as well as Paul. Both used the very same teaching. The council at Jerusalem were Jews, the whole council elaborated from a Jewish mindset, the Messiah Himself was Jewish in regards to his physical nature. He used Jewish customs to communicate to His Jewish apostles. He did not remove them from their own culture to institue a new custom. This was accomplished fully by the Church, who teaches there is no need for Jewish things in the NT. You have been taught to throw the baby out with the bath water. And are finding no reason for the baby at all. I'm not telling you to be or become Jewish. Let's get that real clear. I'm telling you that the 'no need for Jewish customs in the NT' is a propagation of the early church fathers that still stands strong today in the form of supersessionalism, or RT. This is a false teaching within the early church that is still being taught today. Some things also found not in that list you quoted are murder, adultry, stealing, lying..... These are from the ten words given 'Israel' as commandements. So are these to be found needless as well? I would think not.

That would have been the intent of the early church fathers like eusebius, who went out of their way to eradicate anything Jewish as detestible and acursed. They forbid the early believers from observing it the way Messiah did, and instituted their own practices. The early church fathers replaced the Jewish feast with Easter. They called the Jewish practices 'illegitimate', and taught (falsely) that Messiah showed another way. Teaching believers not to have anything in common with the Jews. (Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20) He as a leader in the 1st council of nicea. Most of official Christianity rejected any form of Jewish though after this council. It was quite an anti-semetic council. So your statement is quite true. The true context of the text has been distorted, if not found completely 'illegitimate'. By the early church leaders.

Have another read of it and let me know what you think. I think Matt 26:26-26, Mark 14:22-24, and Luke 22:16-20 all indicate quite clearly that the disciples were eating the passover meal with Messiah when He instructed them about the bread and wine. To use one verse of Paul to muddy or invalidate the context within all three gospels is not something i'm in the habit of doing. Congrats...you have totally missed my point. Also I have never tried to imply that the meal was anything but Passover...in fact I was re-iterating it. Hang on just a minute there bro....what I was saying is that in the context of Passover Jesus was expanding/adding another dimension to the feast so yes He is instituting something new....He is revealing Himself in the Passover, He is signifying that even the breaking of bread should NOW remind them of His body broken for them, and He is showing them that the third cup of Redemption, is also a testimony of His blood redeeming them from sin, because it is the blood of the Lamb that saves us. I do try not to be too foolish...but I was asking if you could see within the context, that Paul was covering 2 things...obviously you couldn't as you either misread or misunderstood what I wrote...I wasn't even saying I was right in the way I was reading it, I just hoped for a reply that was friendly and informative...so was a little surprised/disappointed at the tone and wording of your reply. Then please let me ask your forgiveness. I am sorry. I could have used more tact in my wording. My time was short, and apparently so was my manner. I pray we can move past that. Messiah did relate a new understanding using the bread and wine within the passover meal. It was new to those who missed it within the original commands. Messiah is the wave offering of the Pesach instructions. If you studied about the connection between Messiah and the sheaf wave offering the high priest does on the day after the sabbath, or third day of the feast, you would understand more about the bread and wine. Read Lev 23:9-14 and notice the connections. The high priest would take the very first sheaves of barley and wave them to the north, south, east, west, then offer a lamb, bread, and wine. It was an offering that the Lord was supposed to accept as the very first of the harvest. Hence the day is called Reishit Katzir, or first of the harvest. This represents Yeshua and his sacrifice. He is the firstborn of all creation, who offers himself to God as the Lamb, who is the living bread from heaven, and who's blood like wine is poured out for our redemption. This starts the counting of the omer, and in 49 days there is another feast, the third of the spring feasts, Shavuot/Pentecost. The beginning of the Church!! The feast of first fruits. Christianity tends to eliminate any reference or connection to the Jewishness of Messiah and the disciples. I disagree that Messiah intended to start 'the Lord's supper' in place of, or along side of, the passover celebration. This was not a 'this is for the church, that was for the Jews' thing. The assembly of believers at the time of the passover meal were all Jews observing a Jewish celebration. The teachings about the bread and the wine used the celebration as a canvas. In no place did Messiah say, 'when your coming together, outside of this celebration, like you do every day when you eat supper...do this...." He said when you are celebrating the feast of Passover, and you're breaking the bread and drinking the cups, do it in remembrance of me. Nowhere in the gospels do we find the Jewish apostles teaching that their Jewish customs will not be accepted any longer, as Jews. Nowhere was it taught them that they had to remove themselves from observing the feasts. In fact, Paul states opposite. He says if you're born circumcised, stay circumcised. Don't think that just because of your calling in Messiah you have to forsake your circumcision. He said the same about gentiles. Remain who you are when you were called, outwardly. But be renewed within.

Have another read of it and let me know what you think. I think Matt 26:26-26, Mark 14:22-24, and Luke 22:16-20 all indicate quite clearly that the disciples were eating the passover meal with Messiah when He instructed them about the bread and wine. To use one verse of Paul to muddy or invalidate the context within all three gospels is not something i'm in the habit of doing. Matt 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover. 26Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and this is my body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Mark 14:16 And the disciples set out and went to the city and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover. 22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body." 23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." Luke 22:13 And they went and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover. 15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you I will not eat ituntil it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. Paul was not making things up on his own, nor instituting something new from within the passover. As we see, all three gospels state the bread and wine to be remembered are in the context of the passover celebration. Now, if your going to teach that Paul taught something different, your going to have to prove that, with scripture. Because the gospels agree with Paul. The bread and wine of rememberance is embedded 'within' the passover meal. There is nothing 'new' being added here. All three gospels prove this to be true. Even John identifies the bread and wine within the Passover meal. Just not as succinctly as the three above. Even the tiles of the chapter sections detail this. "Passover with the Disciples" is followed by "Institution of the Lord's Super". Each gospel has the same embeddment of the bread and wine within the passover meal. To think otherwise is foolish. There is no teaching from Paul that states otherwise.

Why don't you consider the context of the text? It plainly explains how it was passover when 'the Lord's super' is defined. As quoted from the ESV 1 Cor 11 refers to nothing else but the passover. As this is the only time Messiah took bread and wine and instructed his disciples to 'remember him'.

Nobody is telling you to emulate Jews. I said that when you strip the gospel of it's Jewishness you miss soooooooo much of the context. Let's use the verse you quoted. This is in reference to Pesach, a Jewish feast, The statement "as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup" implies that 'you' as a believer are celebrating it. Whenever 'you' observe Passover, you proclaim the Lord's death. And, we should be doing this till He comes back. He equates the Lord's supper with Passover. And in the context of the story, the bread and the cup are in reference to the Passover celebration the night of Messiah's arrest. So to use the verse as you did makes no sense. It proves you wrong. First, of course there exists regular schedule events in God's Word. The whole bible is God's word, and that includes the OT. To claim God does not like, nor use regular scheduled events would tell me you don't know much of God. Second, the very verse you used proved Paul taught his audience that they would be observing a regularly scheduled event called Pesach. That when they did observe it, they should remember the Lord's death. And when Paul identified until He comes, he made it clear that the followers of Messiah would be observing it till the return.

Judaism celebrates Shavuot by remembering the giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai. It's the culmination of what we call counting the omer. We count every day from the second day of Passover to Pentecost. The celebrations really never ends in this way. Passover/unleavened bread, first fruits waving, which represents Yeshua's resurrection, and then we continue counting the omer till Shavuot. Where we celebrate the giving of the Torah from God. All this is done within traditional customs. The Church has rejected all things Jewish, and so misses out on all the glorious patterns that reflect the Messiah and what He has done for us.

We celebrate "the birth of the Church" by acknowledging the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and re-reading Acts 2 - but we don't really do anything. How do you celebrate it? With a lot of cheese!