AgnosticFront84

I know I told you I wanted to bow out of this discussion but this statement brought a few questions to mind. Why is there no doubt that Jesus lived on the earth? Excluding the Bible, there is only one secular (more non-Christian) account of Jesus' existence annotated by a historian from these times. I'm sure you know him as Josephus Flavius (37-100 A.D.) the Jewish historian. Of the large volumes of Jewish history and ongoing wars he wrote about, he only mentioned Jesus ("of Nazerath") twice in Antiquities. To me, this is kind of strange. Of all the historical information he wrote about in his years, he mentions Jesus, a man claiming to be the son of God, defiling his religion, excecuted - ressurrected, a man of miracles....only twice?? Here is what he has to say about him: (Antiquities 18) About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. (Antiquities 20) Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others. These two excerpts of Jesus' mention are the only (to my knowledge, please prove me wrong) from a non-Christian historian from the 1st century. The problem with even these excerpts is they have been proven to be forgeries. Discovered byEusebius (scroll down to: Olson, "Eusebius and the Testimonium Flavianum"), who was known for forging documents in favor of Christianity. The preceeding excerpts from Antiquities do not correlate with the writing styles of Josephus and are spoken in Christian terminology. Did Jesus exist? Absolutely. Which one are you talking about though? Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus, Jesus ben Sirach, or Jesus ben Pandira just to name a few from the supposed Jesus of Nazareth era. Not debating, discussing I would really enjoy seeing a few examples of "far too much evidence of Jesus having lived on the earth to dispute it."

Just to jump in and provide a little correction in that statement, Hindus believe you are every living being on this planet and the last being you are reincarnated into is human. Even as human you are reincarnated 9 times as human. The trick is you never know if it's the 9th time before you are judged to spend eternity in their version of hell or nirvana. Ok, that's all, continue on

I have decided to no longer post here at Worthy Boards. My reason is because I am still searching for answers and most of you here believe what you believe with full confidence. I am pretty shaky in my spiritual life now teetering from this to that in a kind of chaotic confusion. I want to sincerely apologize for my offensive posts and thank those who have taken time to try to answer the many questions I may have. This conclusion did not come from any one poster here but from a change of heart in my self that was long needed. I need to give up all the resentment towards christians and christianity in general. I want to read the Bible again (it's been about ten years) and start going to church both with an open heart and mind. I honestly want to give this another chance and it will take a long time before I have reached my decision through much prayer and seeking for God. Once again, I won't be posting here again until I make a decision to give my heart to the Lord which is a HUGE HUGE step for me. Please understand this. I need clarity in my spiritual life and going back to the Bible might be that way. I have spent the last few years indulging myself into atheist literature and essays which have made logical sense but left me spiritually empty. Thank you once again, all of you for your help I will respond to any comments to this post. Ovedya, I want to end the soapbox debate since I have no energy to debate something I am internally battling at the moment.

I just wanted to say that I'm a non-christian but grew up Pentecostal. I remember reading religious tracts in church by a flaming fundy named Jack Chick telling me how Catholics were in the wrong. Well my grandmother was Roman Catholic and it was very offensive to me. I feel for you, man. I'm sorry you have to be persecuted by protestants. Here is an example of what I'm talking about... Actually, I found the exact tract I was reading years ago. Be prepared, ol Jack can be quite offensive... Why is Mary crying?

First of all, what's up! Long time, no talk I finally got my internet back and ready for this discussion. Ok, back to the topic at hand... I fully understand the concept the author is trying to display here. All other religions focus on the doctrines and teachings but not the founder of the religion. Christianity, on the other hand, focuses on the life of Christ, him being self-proclaimed man-god, and people knowing they must accept him as God. Ditto my last comment. True that That's factual information about your religion and I agree with this. Not built on the teachings, but the teachings are obviously adhered to. Hmm...In the eyes of Christians this may be true, but to say the latter section of this is fact is wrong. It is belief. The author is obviously speaking in terms of Christianity because he is making statements as if they were empirical fact and not faith. "Christ IS the Anointed One... Christ IS the very God..." Ovedya, I'm very glad you happened to include these words said by Jesus. This was a major problem I've always had with Jesus' teachings. There is no way I would ever love an invisible, supposed man-god who died 2000 years ago over my tangible parents or other family members. With all his might and power and glory and whatever, this Jesus can't even respond when called out to. Scream as loud as you can, Easter bunny, can you hear me!!?? You will receive the same response when you substitute the name Jesus Christ. It hurt me as a child when my father (who is a fundamentalist born-again) uttered these words to me, admitting he loves Jesus more than me. Sorry, don't mean to get all personal, but this is my opinion on this topic. Anyway, onward... Nothing new here, next... Yes, I know this, according to John chapter 1, John was sent by God to bear witness of the Light, Jesus. I have absolutely no clue why God would send his Son knowing people wouldn't even recognize Him as His Son. I believe that John, who was a witness of Jesus, HAD to reinforce the "fact" to everybody that Jesus was God. It was his duty as a leader of this new cult to spread his name out there and to exaggerate that this great person, Jesus, was really God's son. You see, John's Gospel MUST exhault Jesus' name beyond reality to make people believe he is actually who he says he is. This was the job of the rest of the disciples too. Well, minus Judas, he had some personal problems he was dealing with at that time. Basically, you can't bring out a new product without good marketing. ~~ OK, You may respond to my comments if you so wish or you can comment on my excerpt from another book. I chose this chapter because it explains how Christianity got from Jerusalem to Rome. (We know how Christianity came to America already). How it spread and why it spread. It is quite amazing to me that Christianity is still holding strong today and didn't fizzle down like many other religions disregarded as myths today. Taken from chapter 1 of the book titled, "Biblical Nonsense" by Dr. Jason Long Jerusalem To Rome The early spread of Christianity is almost entirely attributed to the Apostle Paul. His letters to neighboring regions, especially the one to the Romans included in the New Testament, were widely influential in changing local religious views. Before the purported arrival of Jesus Christ, the original Hebrew religion, as found in the Old Testament, was an unfathomably harsh one. If you

What's up, people, I can't believe this thread is still going. Anyway, I have to agree with one of the previous posters, banning things like saying "Merry Christmas" is just plain ridiculous. I am not a christian and never again will be, but I still say bless you when someone sneezes, Merry Christmas, and call french fries and french toast by their rightful name. It's all just habit and who really cares? It doesn't hurt anyone or anything...it's a part of our culture. By the way, Freedom Fries just sounds stupid

I also apologize for my absence. I am currently outprocessing the Air Force and have cut my internet connection. I will not be on here very often and this discussion might have to be put on hold for a month or so I'm really sorry

In agreement with rules, let's begin You can respond to my question that you quoted in the above post to start it off...

If I was to ever become a Christian again, it would be along the lines of how you think. Yes, the notion of an eternal hell awaiting you is a great motivation to become/stay christian. I did mention this before but did you ever stop to think of the verses that describe hell like "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Hmm...I had no idea that souls had lungs to wail or teeth to gnash....a spirit that is a matterless substance can feel physical pain as we know it? Astonishing claims the bible makes sometimes.

You are the epitome of accepting the bible as a child...

From my heart, I would say it is a rejection of christianity and organized religion in general. I lack the blind faith required to be a christian and I honestly doubt the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Sounds like a fun game, for God anyway. Let's see who will worship and who will reject me....ya know, for the fun of it. I'm sorry, my fault. I really need to brush up on my Christian terminology. Here's the correct translation: "Maybe I will re-dedicate my life to Christ after years of rejection and backsliding, and once again I will say hundala kundala shundala." I hope so too.

Just let him go, let him go. He's like a rabid wolverine with the bible-quoting he gives me. Nod and smile and back away slowly....

Wow! Banned Agnostic from the message board? That's right, we gotta stand up for God, make sure people toe the line or they are OUT. Gee whiz. Agnostic, have you ever read The Great Divorce by CS Lewis? It is a very imaginative look at Heaven and Hell. Lewis imagines that Hell is a vast expanse of territory where everyone builds houses far, far away from each other so they don't have to have contact with anyone - they so despise each other and only regard themselves as significant. It is pretty interesting. I am so with you on what is literal and what is metaphorical in the Bible. There is a certain amount of information that is fairly clear and straightforward and then a TON which is ambiguous and even "poetic", intended to give expression to an experience but not intended to be a "report" of the experience. I am 37 and grew up in a fairly mainstream Protestant church. I sang in the choir, did lots of solo work, headed up "worship teams" the whole nine yards. About 5 years ago I grew increasingly frustrated by the message I had been getting every Sunday which seemed to contain 50% truth (as I saw it) and 50% stuff the pastor made up depending on how he felt that week. I realized that the Gospel, the central message of Jesus, the FOUNDATION of my faith, was only getting lip service. We spent 90% of our Sundays hearing messages on how we weren't living up to God's expectations and how displeased He probably was of us and how we needed to "come back to Him" yadda, yadda, yadda. All preached with the best intentions and with good motivations, I believe. Still, at this point in my life I am able to say that the Gospel is the one thing I hold firm to and all else is debateable as long as it does not violate that. On Larry King's show he asked Billy Graham if God loved Satan and Mr. Graham could not answer. He simply said, "I don't know". I loved that answer! If you place your faith in Christ then you can say "I don't know" to TONS of stuff and still be OK. You can believe that Hell is a lake of fire (though I disagree), you can believe that everyone gets to Heaven, it doesn't matter. All you need be concerned about is in whom you place your faith, yourself or Christ. And even that doesn't concern me all that much (for others) because I know God is in control and He'll work with you just as He has with me, in His own way. All this chatter about what about this and what about that is just interesting intellectual exercise. In any "movement" you'll have wackos, just ignore them <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have not read anything by CS Lewis, although I should. But thank you for your nice post, I have really nothing to say except a smile