Carter

Do I 'ave to? I know how that will go...I supply a contradiction, you post a why it is not a contradiction and at the same time say I need The Holy Ghost. In the end nothing changes...You know what contradictions Im' talking about anyways... Maybe... *shrugs* Blind? I don't. But I assume you mean without a God/designer? Mostly, because I know evience for parts of it, and I see more evidence for it that for YEC...The rest is culture. I'm not afraid to admit that. Beliefs you have because of family, upbringing ect. I know that. Not half....100%...the believers too...

Tell me historical evidence of his Virgin Birth, through The Holy Mother Mary. I don't know any but the two bible gospels, and how did they know if Mary was really a virgin...I don't think they have checked... There are no protets of Jesus..There are of George Washington. Also, the longer something is ago, the more hazy any evidence becomes. Also, while it may not seem so to the believers, there are seeming contradictions in the gospels...Somethings are left out and added in some...Lazarus death/ressurection is only noted in John...While it was a very fgreat happening...Dead men don't rise everyday... Hey BTW...You've just said Im' right because my logic is. Nice of you.

Indeed. And my biblical knowlege about Jesus being the prophesised Messiah or not is too swallow. I just didn't study the subject enough...I need to read the prophets but I never came furthen then History, Wisdom and Law. (First parts of the OT) Prophets can be right about events and wrong about other things. There are prophets who were right outside of the bible and to me it is very possible that the bible prophets did 'see' the future, but not 100% true. Question: Is Micah 5:2 a prophecy wich leads to Jesus? Hmm..not really all true. If a newer writer knows what older writers wrote, then you can base your newer writing on them. You can build on what those before you wrote. Still it is never all circular reasoning. Some parts make perfect sense. Proverbs has a lot of wisdom. other parts seem like complete nonsenmse though... You can turn this point around, because you have the holy spirit and too much faith, you're making sense out of something that makes no sense. If I use this trick, the entire holy spirit arguemt is turned into a "Yes.", "No." Yes!" "No!" "YES!" "NO!" YEEES!!!" "NOOO!!!" arguement and it seems impossible to escape from that. I know I've argued too much even though I'm new... But please don't try to convert me...It won't work, others have tried and it will only turn every conversation with me into an a conversion attempt.

No, it is indeed circular reasoning, but not all is circular reasoning, because the biblke isn't writen as one book. To escpe the circular reasoning, you need differnt books, written at differnt dates. He doesn't...But the ones writing a Story about him could. No...It's very possible to have a revelation that comes true without you controlling it. But it is possible to control some actions into fullfilled prophecies. Hi Cymba. Maybe we should discuss this somewere else.

There's not much point in argueing about this. You are correct. But(There's always a but) while catastophic events can cause a great deal of things, they can't explain everything. And scientists are wrong at times. If they weren't, we'd be in trouble.

How big is the chance for faked prophesies? How big is the chance prophecies can come into being without god? I can't prove that the bible has faked prophy fullfillments, but I can prove it's very possible to fullfill prophecies without God.

Aber...Nein. Du bist wong. Some things take a lot of time, while others take not as much. And scientists are wrong too. But no scientist claims an eruption takes millions of years.

How much?

It's true that Dating by fossils is the most used method, because that's the most cheap method. But Rocks have been dated with normal dating methods. It's true that they are subject to inaccuracies, but a million years younger or older still proves an old eath. Look up the K-T boundary...It has been dated a lot of times because it exists the world over and it's very easy to see what it is. And it was dated 65 million years ago almost perfectly. All the time. . What you're saying is true, but I think it's safe to assume vja4him meant 6000-8000 years old or miljons.

I didn't say it was a test. I said that some people say it is one, hence why I said it's a common anwser. My own opinion is not to be found in my previous post here. It is in league with science. Carefully tested science based on observations. Not all sperm cells are the same. Otherwise differnt twins would never be possible. That's not to say that God doesn't choose wich sperm cells hit the eggcell. He'd still be the crafter of the universe, but there's no way to prove that.

So the Bible is there to under the Truth you already know? That seems completely contradictory to me. I've see you do not make the Relationship point, but you do want to seperate Christianity from the wrd religion. Unfortunatly, it is one. Believing is Jesus, the only real requirement, is still following a religion. Take a look at the dictionary if you don't believe me. On a side note, I feel that you are better at apologetics then most other online Christians I've debated. Now...Prometheus, a Titan/God was a God person who really helped men acording to the Myths. He gave them fire, a cheated Zues to help them. And He suffered a painfull torture. No real savior like Jesus, but He did aproach men. Azetc Gods all Sacrifised themselves to keep the Sun going... And they wanted to do that to help men. There are more example. None of them paralel to Christianity, but none paralel to themselves too. And...Not only does God try to help men, but He also curses them. Blesses and curses...But that's a different point. God set the standard. He could have changed it and not had to bother with anything. Jesus and Christianity are almost the same. You can believe Jesus without being a Christian. And that doesn't have to include church fellowship. Islam does not clam their religion will save them. Bad Muslims go to hell, with is much more fair than sending don't care people to hell and repenting child molesters to heaven. IMO of course.

I know. I'm not a that big science fan. The subjects it deals with are intresting, but the method and kind of thinking behind it generates wrongs. True. Sorry about my intial mistake. Also True. Hmm...What about a compromise between them? Maybe they had massive debates for millions of years before they made a decision. Agreed too. Or He changes. I know that stikes against Christianities teaching but maybe He's experimenting? Omnipotent but not omniscient? While there are possibileties for you too be wrong, I think I still agree. Agreed. I doubt the Event indeed and the truth of it. There are ways to apear dead and trick people. I'll have to read trough your site again... Mediums claim to do that...Maybe they are right But I found most mediums to be using obvious mind tricks. Still they can be right. Well...I still have time.

It is fair to compare Him, but it is unfair to say he's right because He supposedly said things other's don't even try to claim. History is not divided by his existance. Our western way of recording History is dived by his exitance in numbers only. 10 BC and 10 AD are not more differnt from each other then 1980 and 2000. In fact they were much more similiar. Chinese and Muslim Calendars are differnt from ours. And also...When exactly was Jesus born? And when exactly did He die? We don't really know that. The division is based on a guess. Jesus the Person is part of a set of people who made His religion possible. He He not been there, No Christianity. But No St. Paul/Constantine and I think there would still be none. But that's a guess. Why would His power be needed to reach a lot of people? Why couldn't they go on without it? Buddists do amazing tyhings for their religion...Why can they do it alone and the aposteles couldn't? Christians can't find/seek Truth? Tell me...Why do you have a Bible? Why bother to read it? Willingly? He followed His Fathers will and that's stated. He didn't really like it Himself. And christianity also has works. Faith without works is dead. That's one of my biggest problems. Also, it depends were the standard for Goodness is. Islam also is the only way. And maybe that is true...That thinking initiated a lot of evil into the world. I'll have to study a few things about His claims before I can fully answer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matter is not always running down. It can not be created nor destoyed. It can be converted into energy but nothing more. But By observation, a First Cause also can not Come from nothing. It's an explanation for something we don't know. Fully agreed. Exept that Scientists having problems with it doesn't mean it can't be assumed. There are always scientists having problems with something. No, but there's not evidence against it as well. No. It's very possible that the Real God, if He is there, is unknown. And varous Christian denominations disagree on things, some of wich have much impact on Who God is. Even if it is the Christian God, than still it should be made clear wich version. Predestination or not? Works or Faith? What kind of Trinity? What kind of Wrath? Is Baptism needed or not? Hell or no Hell? I agree tha Atheism is indeed a form of religion, altough it can be debated. Need a definition for religion first. Some Prophecy fullfilled would make it true to me, or something that can't be an illusion. Something little, like writing readable for everybody, apearing out of nothingness. On a blackboard or something. Highly unlikely, but if it just apeared as with the second King of Babylon...Psychic Prayer would also do it for me. Somebody prays for an answer about me, something stupid and unknowable, like what kind of calendar is on my wall...I know that's tesing God, and it is not allowed but it would work.

I think that these questions do not have any clear answer. They are intresting questions but souls are things unrecognisable to science, and I don't believe the Bible has an answer. A common answer to the question why unborn children die, from God's viewpoint, is that it is a test for the parents, and that the Soul is in Heaven and they shouldn't worry. I don't think that has a strong biblical foundation. Biologically speaking...At times things go wrong. In a way it is a lottery, and we'd al be differnt if a differnt sperm hit the eggcell. But if we'd have a differnt think/soul is a question without an answer.

I've taken a look at your testimony. Intresting read. Matter can not create itself. Agreed. So there must be a First Cause. Were did that come from? It has always been there. Something existing forever is just as unlogical as something coming from nothing. And...We don't know about nothing. Big Bang theory seems to say that Nothing=>Something, but in fact it only says ???=>Something Before a few seconds after the big bang we know of nothing. No facts about that time. If people want to believe in God based on this, that's Ok for me. But inserting something somewere because you don't really know... Also, I find the step: It has to be one God and not manny rather weird. Could you expand on that? What's wrong with two seperate Gods creating everything? The bible says that Jesus said he was God. That's fundamentally differnt from what the Qu'ran says, namely that Muhammed had a revelation from God, presented to him by Gabri