SavedOne

Yup your absolutely correct : I believe below is how I should have said it thanks for the correction; At the very same time I realized that through the Bible from Genisis to Revelations, the bible says, (presents), and showed that all others were afforded sufficient Grace to allow them to freely choose whether to obey God in the Garden of Eden ,or to not serve God. To obey the rules of the Covenant of Abraham from it's time and Chose Jesus Christ as their Savior from his time.

Not sure why it is troubling and needs to be seperated into one or the other by Calvin or us regarding those preselected and those saved by the "Grace of God" through Faith in choosing the death and resurection of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of our sins. By the very first time I read the the whole Bible through once I understood that the Word of God clearly stated for his purpose and by his will some were preselected . (I never questioned it or frankly felt the need to try and understand My God's reasoning or purpose). At the very same time I realized that through the Bible from Genisis to Revelations, the bible says, (presents), and showed that all others were afforded sufficient Grace to decide freely whether to accept Jesus as their Savior. I really don't see why either is exclusive since Grace is involved in Preselection as well as Grace,(opportunity), through the freedom to chose Christ as our Saviour for those of us that may have been either Preselected or Saved through our choice. ESPECIALLY SINCE THE SAME SAVIOR DIES FOR THE SINS OF BOTH AND IT IS JESUS DEATH AND RESURESCTION THAT SAVES BOTH. Furthermore it appears that to include only one of the two without the other is unbiblical, incorrect , and quite frankly not understandable to me. Since by discarding or disregarding either we would be discarding part of God's word as incorrect. Something I am not prepared to do now or for Eternity. As usual I welcome any Biblical correction and won't return to debate or defend my statements since my purpsoe is to learn from others response after there own Study of the bible and considering this subject, and to share what I have learned.

The verse seems quite sound, in or out of context, to me since "when" I am not hearing the Spirit inside me teaching me I am listening to others teaching in The Spirit.....trusting fully that anything incorrect will be reveiled in further study as incorrect by the Spirit within me. "A teacher can call a pig a cow but by their very nature they testify that one can not be the other".( A person can teach untruth as truth , but by the very nature of Truth , untruth will be exposed. ) The verse of in itself says the best source of teaching is the Holy Spirit, as was echoed by Jesus more than once... since the Holy Spirit can not teach anything but Truth. In the broadest sense any True and Accurate Biblical teaching is From the Holy Spirit As always feel free to correct or comment ... I will not return to debate or defend my comments since that is not my purpose. My purpose is always to continue learning through other's Study of the Bible and what they have learned about and subject of the discussion . Then I let the Holy Spirit lead me to the Truth and discard the untruth, and trust that the same will be done for you with anything I have explain incorrectly unknowingly. Editing was done for spelling errors only.

Green"drakkon" your original question assumes and or appears to state that there are very few or no Messianic Saved Jews...THE WAY was the Jews originally.... and I would be very curious to know if anyone has any idea how many Jewish people consider themselves MSJ's. Secondly the Bible makes it clear that God is The God of complete Righteousness and Holiness. So the Covenant with Israel must remain in some form. The verses already quoted regarding members of all nations being part of God's eternal kingdom answers that question well along with other verses that repeat similar answers.. The question that does arise is not whether Saved gentiles will be in heavenly eternity, but at exactly what point the Jews Covenant ceased to cover the Present or future Jews. The Covenent with the Jews had required sacrifices to maintian its covering. Did it no longer cover future Jews once Jesus was crucuified and rose on the third day(the temple curtain seems to be a physical occurence designed specifically to symbolize that), or when he was born so that the Jews in his Presence only had Jesus as a means to salvation, Jesus said he was the Fullfillment of the Law. His work was completed or fulfilled when he rose the third day. Some of Jesus's statements regarding "had S & G seen these Miracles they would exist to this day, another one about repenting and sitting in sackcloth,seems to suggest that in his Presence ...failure to except him was Blasphemy against the Spirit... which would seem to suggest that the New Covenant started with regards to the Jews of the Covenant with Abraham either at his Birth or at anytime he revealed himself as the Messiah which would have started at birth for the Wisemen and the Sheperds ??? Jesus is God so any revelation of his identity by God or his Angels would be a revelation of Jesus of himself. Any comments or corrections are more than welcome.. I won't be responding to defend my statements since my purpose is to hear others conclusions after there studies, prayers and Bible reading, to assist in my own further or more complete understanding of this situation. So if Green D or possibly it was someone else that said they were going to have some part in Evangelizing the Jews "technically" needs to know who or what Jews are not covered by the Covenant with Abraham. No need to not go and have a part in Evangelization while the answer is coming since there could be no bad side to planting seeds that allowed the Holy Spirit to lead Unsaved Jews to accept Jesus as their means to Salvation. The editing I have done was spelling only

Just a reflection on similar past feelings.... Whenever I feel a call or a change in direction of a call.... or worse yet feel confused about what exactly I am to change... I often have a terrible time sleeping along with becoming extremely distraught, and then when almost complete exhaustion was reached I went through the sleep for most of somedays thing sometimes for "a while". You actually have the odd feeling that God isn't listening anymore and nobody else is either. THE GOOD NEWS. To this point they have always been followed by huge steps in Christian Maturity,drowning in the Love of God, and the Spirit, understanding , and most important greater Fruitfulness. I have learned now to just quit fighting it and trying to understand it, and have faith that it is the next step.... calming myself privately with the Word and Prayer and Praise. Regarding the dream about Preaching in front of a huge audience... it is an extremely common dream... I do missionary, and evangelist work, and talk and confide back and forth with others that do the same and I really don't remmeber when someone didn't have a very similar dream.... usually more than once. In the beginning for me it was attached to fame and fortune, but as I change it changed to one that was blessed with the fruitfulness that was eternal, not financial. God Bless You and be assured WE not just m e are praying for you .

In a particularly spirit filled and rewarding half day of Private worship.... I suddenly was overwelmed with the need to call the brother of an old Friend I hadn't seen in years,(either of them), and Tell him Specifically "God whats you to know that everything will work out", "what ever is going on is not your fault", "it will all work soon". Well I waited till the end of the event I was at , called his Dad and asked for a phone number. I called and said, " Hi I don't know if you remember me ,gave my name, and said I don't know what is going on but "God wants you to know everything will work out, its not your fault and it will all work out soon. I'm going to shorten the story by passing over his amazement and mine....and the reasons why but he had just been asked to leave the church as Pastor when I was led to call him.... Within a week he had been invited by someone who had either previously worshiped at the Church or had visited I forget and was called to Pastor at their two sister churchs. So what was this? I have had similar whatevers and have not followed through on them.... mostly because they were a promise to several congregations prayers,(including what I guess I will call visions of the positive end of the promise), along with a very unpleasant consequences if they did not follow through on what they had asked for. Other service to God has been and is continuing to be fruitful, but I have kind and run an hid from these and apparent previews of things to come in more personal areas. And yes they did or already had happened when I somehow knew they had. A childhood friends Dad's death, with me not even knowing he was ill, including her standing beside him with tears in her eyes was one. Thank God he was saved. Somebody please tell me what this is?????

My Prayers are for those who choose to replace Gods Word with the their God of Science... In saying the Bible is not Literal,( which is by the way is code for wrong), they have testified that Jesus did not literally save them from eternal damnation, the saddest states a human can find themselves in ... since they judge that one part of the Bible as not being Literal, then none of it can be taken literally by them . An honest person admits that they don't understand some verses in the Bible, but only a foolish one discounts them because of our limited human minds ability to fully comprehend them. Those same people often seek to prove that their intelligence matchs that of God... Although their fate has often been fast and final I pray for God's continued Mercy and abundant Grace for them to find something truly eternal for them to believe in... God's Word and its Promises. I don't post this out of hate, judgement or even anger but out of sincerity and Love. I've been down the same road and Thank God that he Literally stopped me in my tracks, put his loving arms around me and walked me through the incredibly interwoven and self proving and testifying Word of God. One of the most amazing Parts of it all was one of the phrases that most clearly lit the darkness of my situation ..."In my Opinion" ... How about in God's Opinion instead??????

Just wondering if you folks are confusing Love and Hate with the responses of a completely Righteous and Holy God to unrighteousness and unholiness.

ARE WE ATTEMPTING TO PLACE OURSELVES UNDER THE LAW AGAIN OR ARE WE ATTEMPTING TO LIVE IN THE SPIRIT AND IN THE FREEDOM JESUS BOUGHT FOR US? SATURDAY OR SUNDAY WHAT DOES IT MATTER IN THE FRAMEWORK OF ETERNAL LIFE.... WHICH ONE OF US HERE ON EITHER DAY WE CALL THE SABBATH ACTUALLY HONORS IT TO THE FULL EXTENT AND COMPLETENESS WHICH THE LAW REQUIRES?????????? WHY IS IT THAT SO MANY TIMES ALL OF US CHOOSE TO SOW DIVISION AND DEBATE OVER NON-ETERNAL DOCTRINE AND QUESTIONS... INSTEAD OF SOWING THE SEEDS OF GOD'S LOVE AND WORD SO THAT THE WORD AND THE SPIRIT CAN LEAD THE UNSAVED TO ETERNAL LIFE. SURE THE UNSAVED NEED TO KNOW BEFORE THEY ARE SAVED THAT THEY ARE UNDER THE LAW... OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE NO REASON TO CHANGE. BUT LET THOSE UNDER THE LAW DEBATE THE LAW, AND THOSE LIVING IN THE SPIRIT...SPEND THEIR TIME LEADING OTHERS TO JESUS AND THE SPIRITS FREEDOM AND AWAY FROM THE YOKE OF THE LAW I CONSIDERED DELETING THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH BUT I BELIEVE IT NEEDS TO BE SAID WHAT POSSIBLE REASON IT THERE TO BRING UP SAT VS SUNDAY UNLESS IT IS TO BRING DOUBT AND CONFUSION INTO A YOUNG BELIEVERS MIND AND ATTEMPT TO PLACE THEM BACK UNDER THE THE LAW OR TO PLACE A WEDGE BETWEEN DIFFERENT ASSEMBLIES OF BELIEVERS . ONCE WE WERE SAVED IT WAS AND CONTINUES TO BE ALL OF OUR PLEASURE TO PRAY FOR GOD TO CONTINUE TO HELP US FLEE EVIL AND SIN AND INTO GOD'S LOVING ARMS, BUT IT IS NOT THE LAW'S OR A BELIEVER'S GOOD PLEASURE TO PLACE SOMEONE WHO IS ALREADY RANDSOMED BACK UNDER THE LAW.....BLOCKED FROM THE SIGHT OF GOD, AND THE SPIRIT. THIS IS A CONSTANT STRUGGLE IN THE HARVEST FIELD... AT GOSPEL BOOTHS AT THE FAIRS WE VISIT . WE HAVE BELIEVER'S??? TRY DAY IN AND DAY OUT TAKE UP OUR TIME DEBATING NON-ETERNAL DOCTRINES AND QUESTIONS WHILE WE AM TRYING TO SPEND OUR TIME PLANTING SEEDS IN UNBELIEVERS AND COMFORTING THE BROKEN HEARTS.... IN THE END I OFTEN HAVE TO ASK MYSELF WHOSE SIDE ARE THEY ON AND WHO SENT THEM. WORSE YET THEY OFTEN GET ANGRY WHEN YOU WON'T DEBATE. I FIND MYSELF AGAIN AND AGAIN DRAWN TO AND LED BY GALATIONS CHAPTER 5 AND A FEW PARTS OF CHAPTER 6 ... AND THAT IS A BIG PART OF THE BASIS OF MY REMARKS ABOVE, ALONG WITH JESUS COMMENTS ON THE SABBATH AND THE TWO GREATEST COMMANDMENTS.

Only a few short years ago I fit the Description of your husband with regards to my wife. I guess you should know that my attitude had not taken me to the point of cheating on her with my Body, but God knows my heart and eyes cheated on here almost constantly and to my incredible embarassment later I actually rubbed it in here face,(I made sure she knew I was) . I finally came to the Point that I said to God..." I have to get out of this mess and unhappy marriage". So at least I Got one thing right I asked the right Authority. Anyway I actually did start to move out... but I couldn't ... it meant I was moving out on my children as well!!!! You will notice later that this was only the reason I told myself I wasn't leaving, not the real reason. God immediately started to ask me questions.... not trying to be funny but the first thing that came to my head was "WWJD", What would Jesus do? Again through the Grace of God I already knew what Jesus would do from reading the Gospels many, many times since childhood. So you think this never happens to those who believe ... I was saved at this time and was actually doing Missionary and Evangelist work at least half of every year.. So the next Question God asked me was, " Is your wife Ugly in my eyes", I had to say ofcourse not in your eyes and hey " Yah know God she really isn't in my eyes either... I can still see the woman I married some 20+ years ago... God's Next Question was " Is she Loveable in My eyes?" Well of cource God you Love every body was my answer.... and wait a second I never said I didn't love here. Ooops " and the Greatest of thes is Love", came immediately to mind and I realized I was a liar. too. Nobody could be so hurting to another human being and and claim they Loved them right..??????? \\\\\\\\ So what was going on.... #1 I didn't Love myself and Frankly it was much easier for me to love a complete stranger than someone close to me...#2 I have absolutely no doubt the devil and the world was egging me on, (no excuse just obvious in hindsight) , and #3 I was judging my wife on the gifts God had blessed me with instead of with the gifts he had blessed here with. Love, Service to her Family, loyalty to her freinds and me, personal modesty, and above all else the ability to still keep trying when I had already given up on our relationship. Anyway to make a long story short... I now look forward to spending the rest of my life beside here and you know what.... now that I actually "practice What I Preach" she out worships me and out witnesses me everyday... which ofcourse she always did... but not just the way I in my ultimate all knowingness knew she was supposed to????? YA RIGHT. My only point here is it can happen... two married people can fall apart and then fall back together.... and as you can see it wasn't her fault any of the time. I beg you to Pray constantly for God's will to be dome in this situation. IN THE END IT WAS MY WIFES COMMITMENT TO ME AND HER CONSTANT PRAYERS TO GOD THAT WOKE ME UP .... NEEDLESS TO SAY MY WORK FOR GOD IS MANY TIMES MORE FRUITFULL NOW, TOO.....AND YOU KNOW WHAT GOD NEVER GAVE UP ON ME EITHER... A WIFE THAT SEEMED TO BE A BURDEN, BECAME A BLESSING.... WHEN I CHOSE TO SEE THINGS THROUGH GOD'S EYES, INSTEAD OF THE devil's. AND THEN THE SCALES FELL OF MY EYES AND I SAW THE WIFE I HAD MARRIED, AND ALL OF THE REASONS I HAD LOVED HERE ENOUGH TO MARRY HERE SOON BECAME CLEAR AGAIN, TOO.