BlindSeeker

Personally, I think anyone who thinks Israel and Jerusalem is mystery Babylon has taken a serious wrong turn. No wanting to debate it, that's a labor of the flesh and an effort of futility. Just wanting to be on record my perspective of that concept. Also, I don't believe there will be a USA when the 2 witnesses are killed, that is why the other nations are emboldened.

Feel free to expound and further define your position. FYI, while I recognize the apostate of Israel and Judaism without Christ, I do not see her as this harlot in chapter 18.

Amen, very well said. I often view it as if we are all spokes on a rim connected to the axle, the polestar of all truth. From our various starting points we all begin with a different perspective, often blinded to the view of another, as they are to ours. Yet as life begins to rotate the wheel of life, the attentive will take notice of the change, new perspectives formed, and with time and maturity under the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we all converge more into a harmony of heart and mind towards the Truth. I believe it is this process, a form of sanctification and perfection of holiness, that causes us to put on Christ, and to come to the that measure and fulness of Him. Romans 13:14 - But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts [or pride] thereof. Ephesians 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind [or whim] of doctrine, by the sleight [or ignorance] of men, or cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow up into Him in all things, which is our head, even Jesus Christ, 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted [or pressed into humility in order to receive from others] that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working [of the Spirit] in the measure of every part, thereby making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Amen, and amen. Who are we and what have we that we have not received? If we figured it our, we will only be proven wrong in the in. No one wants to be a Harold Camping, twice wrong, in predicting the the start of the apocalypse and the date of the rapture. However, the arrogant will run ahead. Hence, knowledge puffs up and give vain confidence, but true understanding from the Lord brings humility. Proverbs 4:7 - Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 16:16 - How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver! Jesus said they were indeed blessed to whom "it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God." Even Daniel, a very humble man, was told by the angel, "I am come forth to give you both skill and understanding" of the things he had heard and saw. True. Some are like drive by shooters, never stopping to listen, only constantly shooting of the scripture gun, and that not to bring unity or understanding, but to defend the high ground from which they are destined to fall from... We all have bibles and many read them, but reasoning and ministry must be intimate and personal, otherwise it is detrimental... Galatians 6:1 - Wherefore brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. All of this happened already, read the Book of Acts. A true Christian will find persecution everywhere....

I truly appreciate your insight and find considerable room for comfortable agreement with you. Honestly, no patronizing. However, to be forthcoming, I personally do not subscribe to the popular notion of an end-time antichrist figure rising to near global dominance. While I have other reasons for not accepting it as truth, one simple reason would simply be the unanswerable question as to why the Apostle John didn't use the term he coined "antichristos" in Revelation. He it 5 times in his epistles relative to his own time, and in the plural about many antichrists coming, and clearly in the sense of it being a spirit of apostacy that would deny the humanity/deity of Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels... At the risk of being called a Catholic hater again by one of our posters in this thread, I will simply share a brief excerpt from a chapter title “Giving Way to the Rise of The Son of Perdition” concerning a popular historical perspective of 1 Thessalonian's "man of sin" - 1st Thessalonians 2:3 – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. The above verse is widely taught in Christendom today as referencing an end-time antichrist world leader figure. However, when researching old protestant commentaries, even the widely trusted Matthew Henry Commentary, it is hard to find one who fails to relate this “son of perdition” to the position of the papacy, or the succession of popes of Roman Catholicism. Some commentators, like the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary printed in 1871, recognize this verse as ultimately being fully realized in an individual “whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.” However, they too affiliate this verse with the papacy position, but to the end conclusion that there would be one pope, the last pope in the latter days, which would with greater boldness oppose the Lord, His word, and Jesus the Christ openly. See below - “Doubtless “the apostasy” of Romanism (the abstract) is one of the greatest instances of the working of the mystery of iniquity, and its blasphemous claims for the Pope are forerunners of the final concentration of blasphemy in the man of sin, who shall not merely, as the Pope, usurp God’s honor as vicegerent of God, but oppose God openly at last.” Now, this little paragraph above, coupled with the following is perhaps one of the most important and yet least known details pertaining to the most popular teachings on eschatology. It deserves your careful noting, for what many believers nowadays are ignorant of is that this popular theology, which is being widely taught and accepted by non-Catholics, concerning the antichrist rebuilding the temple and becoming a world leader, was originally propagated and taught by a French Catholic monk known as Adso of Montier-en-Der who died in 992 A.D. Though he was a prolific writer of poems, hymns, and biographies of the lives of saints, his perhaps most famous work was his “Letter to Queen Gerberga on the Place and Time of Antichrist,” which became known as the “Little Book on the Antichrist.” However, this theology which was so articulated over a thousand years ago by a Catholic monk, was rejected essentially by every protestant commentator who sought to defend the truth with their pen. For they acknowledged Paul’s speaking in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 of “a falling away first” as being the rise of Roman Catholicism, and “that man of sin… the son of perdition” as the succession of popes. In the second century, Polycarp, deemed to be an apostolic father, in his Letter to the Philippians, paragraph 7, warned the Philippians that everyone who preached false doctrine was an antichrist. Polycarp’s use of the term “antichrist” agrees with the Apostle John who does not reference a single antichrist, but rather a class of people functioning under a “spirit of antichrist.” I John 2:18 – Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist that denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also. Note that this spirit of antichrist, which works to cause men to deny Jesus as the Christ, is said to be also denying both “the Father and the Son,” rendering those who would embrace the antichrist, or false-christ message, to be such that “has not the Father.” To counter this, John assures the saints that “he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” I find it interesting that the Holy Spirit isn’t referenced by John somehow within theses passages. 1st John 4:3 – And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof you have heard that it should come; and even now already is in the world. 1st John 7 – For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Nevertheless, this historical understanding of a spirit of antichrist that works to advance false prophets and teachers has for the most part been completely abandoned by non-Catholics today; most probably because most believers nowadays are ignorant of both scripture and history. Which means it would be prudent for the earnest seeker of the truth to ask what scriptural and historical justification these protestant commentators had for interpreting it the way they did. Perhaps, part of the answer has been obscured by Paul’s decision to not write about the subject plainly and openly in his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians; but instead, chooses only to allude to it by directing his readers to “remember” that which he had taught them when he was there with them. 2nd Thessalonians 2:5 – Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. Paul’s manner of writing here leaves me asking the question, “Why didn’t Paul just articulate these things again in more detail in his epistle?” With a matter of such significant importance, what could be his reason for not putting forth a clear and coherent teaching on this apostasy which the Holy Spirit had revealed to him was going to take place? Especially when Paul’s normal pattern in his epistles was to be very meticulous and thorough when presenting to the saints the oracles of God; yet here he goes no further than to write to them “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” It is evident Paul felt it was wisdom to trust the Holy Spirit to help them recall these pertinent things, for he continues with “you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.” Hence it seems evident that the Apostle Paul under the unction of the Holy Spirit was writing with great carefulness and was unwilling to formally document those things which he had obviously communicated to them in person."

Amen.

For the most part I agree. But in regard to prophetic significance for the last days, I see it as the religious mother of harlots which has sat upon all seven mountains and seen to be riding the beast (IMHO, the 8th and last prophetic great empire) in chapter 18. I feel that this union is prophetically significant of an unholy matrimony between the apostate religious system (whore) and the civil empire (beast). I do not see them being separated in judgment or destruction. I believe the ten other nations deceitfully agree to a new economic system which might be a gold back cryptocurrency, perhaps to counter what the economic collaboration called BRICS. I believe it will be a reaping of what has been sown, taking others into captivity, going into captivity, gaining power by the sword (weapon of war), and dying by the sword. WW2 brought about the decline of the British Empire, who controlled Palestine under its Commonwealth, which led to the rebirth of Israel, and the use of atomic weapons catapulted America into global supremacy. For funsies, here’s an interesting quote from “The Franck Report” that was signed by the top scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project. “All of us, familiar with the present state of nucleonics, live with the vision before our eyes of sudden destruction visited on our own country, of a Pearl Harbor disaster repeated in thousand-fold magnification in every one of our major cities.” A thorough reading of the Franck Report will show just how President Truman and other government leaders rejected the counsel of the wise, just like Rehoboam rejected the wisdom of his father’s counsellors when he was asked by Jeroboam to lower the taxes. After the scientists realized their letter had not been delivered, they wrote a second petition to President Truman, from which the following excerpt was taken. “The war has to be brought speedily to a successful conclusion and attacks by atomic bombs may very well be an effective method of warfare. We feel, however, that such attacks on Japan could not be justified, at least not unless the terms which will be imposed after the war on Japan were made public in detail and Japan were given an opportunity to surrender.” “If such public announcement gave assurance to the Japanese that they could look forward to a life devoted to peaceful pursuits in their homeland and if Japan still refused to surrender, our nation might then, in certain circumstances, find itself forced to resort to the use of atomic bombs. Such a step, however, ought not to be made at any time without seriously considering the moral responsibilities which are involved.” “The development of atomic power will provide the nations with new means of destruction. The atomic bombs at our disposal represent only the first step in this direction, and there is almost no limit to the destructive power which will become available in the course of their future development. Thus, a nation which sets the precedent of using these newly liberated forces of nature for purposes of destruction may have to bear the responsibility of opening the door to an era of devastation on an unimaginable scale.” It almost sounds prophetic, doesn't it?

As far as Israel being Babylon, I see no scriptural basis for it, especially in the usage of “Babylon” in the latter half of Revelation. Clearly, Jerusalem by God Himself is referred to as "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." But just because it is called "the great city" in Rev. 11:8, doesn't mean it is “that great city Babylon” mentioned in chapters 14-18, for the phrase “that great city” is used again, being mentioned in Rev. 21:10 of the “New Jerusalem – “And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.” Babylon, strictly speaking, was but the capital of Chaldea, it too being “a great city,” and therefore the usage of “Babylon” is synonymous with the Chaldean empire. But Nineveh also was called “a great city,” as well as the cities Gideon and Ai, though Ai was admittedly not “as great” of a city. Furthermore, Jerusalem is not a port city, so why would “the merchants of the earth weep over her burning?” And wherein have they been “made rich, all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness?” I certainly feel it takes considerably more squinting of the eye to see Israel as this prophetic “Babylon” than America which fits the description comfortably. BTW, a fun fact, there is a Babylon, New York, on the water just 20 miles from New York City. Also, New York City was the original capital of the USA, where George Washington was sworn in back in 1789. Good post. Thanks. Technically. But I hear Trump wants to change that, and sorry, I have no source for that. But I would respond that it is impossible to separate it from the nation in reference to the wrath of God.

I believe wholeheartedly it is America. The judgment is against mother of harlots (apostate religious system), and the 8th beast (civil system.) Yes, it is over economics that God is able to put in the hearts of the ten kings (European/middle east) nations to enter into a deceptive agreement with them, only as a means of buying time to betray and destroy them. Nowadays, that would be called doing business as usual. Here is my perspective.

Me too.

That is what I appreciate most, especially when the reasoning is respectful. Obviously we all see in part and know in part. It's almost as if two hikers entering into a forest from different ends and seeing things in a different order. But it's not until the patient reasoning in hopes of understanding the others conviction that Christ can given to it becomes obvious that they were just seeing it from different times, discovering it in different settings. It's the here a little and there little, line up on line, line upon line, precept upon precept. Blessings.

I don't view it so much as taking liberties, more of purposing not to lock myself into a common mindset on things. Like "the whole earth" or "whole world" often means nothing more than the whole land of a state or nation, or the whole known world. This is evident when Paul asked the questions"Has not their word gone out through all the world?" Or when we hear the phrase up to heaven, let it too can be merely allegorical as is evident from Deuteronomy 1:28, "The people is greater and taller than we; the cities are great and walled up to heaven." Likewise, using the term beast, dragon, and serpent, or serpents and vipers, have all been used elsewhere in scripture to mean a variety of things from rulers, spiritual leaders, authorities and powers spiritual, like the Lord doesn't speaking to Ezekiel to prophesy against Pharaoh, "Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lies in the midst of his rivers, which has said, "My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself." Or, as in Isaiah 27:1 "In that day the LORD with His sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Surely, the prophecy is layered, and indeed speaking of the devil. But because of verse 6 in that chapter, that "He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root and Israel shall blossom and blood and fill the face of the world with fruit," that the verse is also speaking about the slaying of the Babylonian leadership to set free the captives to return and rebuild Jerusalem in the temple. And in this passage the "sword" would would then be the Medo/Persia empire. Psa 17:11-14 - They have now compassed us in our steps: they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth; 12 Like as a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places. 13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is Thy sword: 14 From men which are Thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly Thou fillest with Thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes. Would appreciate hearing your thoughts...

Yes, but it is one thing to be in a state of eternal condemnation, compared to be finally being placed there. For both are eternal, and without hope of forgiveness, parole, or reconciliation; but the later has the greater torment. So, do you think the devil and the fallen angels are there now? If so, why are they described as being rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places? Or the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience? Or prince of this world? Or why did legion cry out fearfully, asking Jesus, “Are you here to torment us before our time?” Why when in Job’s day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, did Satan came also among them? And why was he just freely going here and there in the earth, walking up and down in it? The question is whether the lake of fire truly a bottomless pit filled with fire, or a place of torment having no end? It might very well be. However, with all the imagery and symbolism, I personally find comfortable room to view the word “abyss” allegorically, as a state of hopeless eternal condemnation with indeed will come to a consummation, that being inescapable eternal-torment in a lake of fire. But why do you think the Lord will release Satan after a thousand years for a brief season? What might possibly be the end that God intends to accomplish by this?

Brother, First, please forgive me if I am missing some of your questions. If so, please feel free to re-ask them. In answer to your question here, it is just a habit of mine to liken the empires in Holy Writ as beasts, just as the Holy Spirit has so often in His unction of giving forth the various prophecies concerning empires. So, since empires 3-6, Babylon, Medo/Persia, Greece, and Rome were called "beasts" in the Book of Daniel, in my mind it is just easier to carry the noun all the way through to this prophecy’s conclusion, the eighth. I could have perhaps said “mountains,” since the angel mentions the seven heads as such, yet still, heads 3-6 were indeed elsewhere called beasts, and I believe the eighth is here also being prophetically represented by one. For I believe that the Rev. 13"1 beast is the eighth, and the whole section of prophecy from 13 to the end of 18 is about the annihilation of the eighth, America, as well as those tangled in the Mystery Babylon Luciferian religious system, which being filled with confusion and chaos, functions under many banners. Hence, the harlot which has sat upon all the seven mountains throughout bible history, opposing God and His truth throughout the ages whereby history is riddled with many pagan religions and idols, even the worshipping of [fallen] angels as gods, on to Islam, and into New Age and such… But I also believe this spiritual warfare has continued to diversify in its agenda, and that through the propagating of more and more harlots, hence the term Mother of Harlots. In Christendom, we might see the "mother" in Catholicism, and the "harlot" in all those that shot up through the reformation. In my perspective, I think if anything, a “restoration” of the purity of the preaching of the Gospel would have been better than a “reformation” of the church, which then was predominantly Catholic. (And I am sorry for all the toes I might have just stepped on, no malice intended.) But yet, we know historically that there were those resisting the apostacy of the Catholic church, and this is evident in the crimes, horrors, and atrocities committed by the Catholic church under banner of "contending for their faith," an apostate faith. All this has been recorded in history. But “who” were they persecuting again, true saints unwilling to acknowledge the apostasy being promoted as the truth of the Gospel, whereby many were torture, beheaded, or burned at the stake. Yet from the very beginning this persecution has been waged, and that through many avenues, starting early with the Jews themselves, and getting a huge kickoff with Nero in Rome, and has continued throughout history - into the various inquisition" from the late 1100's, and into I believe early 1800's. While I have considerable respect for the puritans and many of the reformers, not all of them continued to completion their exit from the errors of Catholicism, for some chose to hold on to certain things that truly should have been left behind. We can see this in how many of them are even now speaking of returning to "the mother church," as well as the compromising of the Gospel in their pulpits nowadays. All that said, your question, "why doesn't the imagery show it as such," that there is an eighth, again, I think that is what we are being given within the whole section of prophecy from 13 to the end of 18. In 13:1 a multifaceted prophetic image in the form of a beast (the 8th) rises from the sea of humanity which ultimately is seen to eventually yield itself to an apostate religious spirit (represented by it being ridden by the harlot). As stated earlier, this, IMHO, is a covenanted relationship, whereby through an unholy union the 8th and the harlot become as one in the judgment and outpouring of wrath of God. But as far as the abyss, the bottomless pit, I truly believe it is not speaking of an actual place, but rather a condition of eternal condemnation. Contrasted with the saints who will never die, there are those entities who have committed sins unto death who will never have the extension of God’s grace or mercies. That even though they might have been temporary beneficiaries of God’s forbearance for His own purposes, forgiveness and reconciliation was never extended to them, these of course being the fallen angels. I touch on this in chap 20 of my book, touching on how God was “Justified in the Spirit.” If what I am presenting, a condition of eternal condemnation being prophetically represented as an abyss, a bottomless pit with no end or hope to be had from one’s fallen state, then we can see how this apostate religious system which has been warring against literal Israel, and spiritual Israel, from the beginning has been in that state from the beginning. And just was Israel “was, and was not, and yet is” once again a thriving nation because they are “beloved for the fathers sake,” meaning God who cannot lie, has kept His covenants with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” and has preserved the lineage, with the assurance “a remnant shall be saved.” Just contrast that with prayer thought and consideration of these previous seven empires upon which this apostate religious system has managed to manipulate empires and thrive in its warring against the saints. I’m sorry, it’s late, and I have obligations tomorrow that oblige me to cut it short. I will try and catch up later, probably in the evening as my family came into town today as well. Blessings

Simply because of the way the word beast has been used to describe living things. Now I know, as you simply put it, that “the red dragon is the serpent is the devil is Satan.” And in that since, we are speaking of a non-flesh and blood creature. But there is an undeniable similarity between the Rev. 13:1 beast that rises out of the sea, and the Rev 17:3 & 7 “scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.” Also, we have the Rev. 11:7 “beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (a subject I’d like to discuss further with you)” to “make war against them [the two witnesses],” which “shall overcome them, and kill them.” Plus, the Rev. 13:7 individual, the second beast of chapter 13 which has horn as a lamb, to whom “it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” So, do you see the red dragon/serpent/devil as being different from the Rev. 11:7 “beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit?” If so, why. And do you believe the second beast to be a flesh and blood man? Again, thanks for all your time and participation in providing answers. This being "thrown down" I believe happened when God manifested in the flesh was justified in the Spirit, and seen of the angels, I Tim 3:16. John 12:31 - Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me. 33 This He said, signifying what death He should die. John 17:1 - These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You I believe the 10 horns in Daniel 7, the 10 on the Rev. 13:1 beast, and the scarlet colored beasts, are all the same, separate from the seven heads, and separate in from the 8th, which is of the seven, yet being represented by the whole prophetic imagery of the 13:1 beast. I believe the seven crowns upon the dragon, represents seven different empires over which Satan ruled under the permissive sovereignty of God as the mystery hid from the foundation of the world was slowly unfolded to humanity and the angelic host, (...which things the angels desire to look into). These seven empires are correlated directly to Israel, which like the beast, "was, is not, and yet is." when the Israel was scatter and wait her rebirth, the beast likewise "was not, yet is" today. Yet, I do believe their is an unholy union between the 8th (civil) empire, which is actually what is being represented by the 13:1 beast rising out of the sea, yet being also being represent by the spiritual force/prince, fallen angel upon which the woman sits. This is the spiritual forces working behind the scene in all the carnal players warring against the Saints and those true children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I will try and respond more Tuesday afternoon or evening. BTW, I do have a link in the OP that was written right after 9/11 20011. It s chapter 18 in my book written in 2015, it is all free, and available there in downloadable mp3 files. Everything I will reason on this subject is basically there. Just in case you are interested... Blessings.

I believe you brother, and could I honestly say the same back to you. Yet, I believe you have developed somewhat of a persuasion of these things, yet still praying for clarity. It seems obvious to me that you have invested time in both Revelation, and in watching and praying. I just figured I'd quickly respond here and go back to your previous reply.

I appreciate you answering my questions. You are my priority as soon as I get an opportunity, probably after dinner. Had doctors appointments today and I have been taxed for time lately. Thanks for your participation and patience. Later.

So far you have only convinced me of 3 things... (1) That you think you are smarter than everyone else because you believe what Mohammad says... And (2), that you have no idea whatsoever I believe. (3) You don't listen to anyone of a different opinion.

No. You only think you know, because your sources are not credible. Your reading the writings of a false prophet, and he has told you what they think? And yet, I asked you to read a thesis by a French Monk, a historic defence of Catholicism and and the papacy, and you said you wouldn't read extra biblical material???? At least Catholicism claims to promoting the diety of Jesus Christ, and not rejecting it like Mohammad did.... Where's your logic in all that? 🤔

[emphasis above mine] Oh, you wanted to know... I guess that makes it right in your own eyes to consult with whatever sources are available. Have you no fear of the leaven of Mohammadism? Why not? I could understand someone purposely being familiar with the Quran if God called them as a missionary to spread the Gospel in lands of Islam. But not because one is trying to understand the Bible itself and wants to know something in it. That makes no sense to me. However, I am sure it is a reality for you now however, and you’ll probably call me ignorant again. But I would rather be ignorant and wise, than knowledgeable about fables and foolish. Shilohsfoal, you worry me and make me think of Saul, from whom the Spirit of God departed, and he too, like you, wanted to know - 1 Samuel 28:6 - And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets [of Holy Writ]. 7 Then said Saul unto his servants, “Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.” If God is really with you Shilohsfoal, and IF He wanted you to know, then have you not ears to hear what the Spirit is saying? I doubt it was the leading of the Holy Spirit for you to read the source upon which you have established your eschatology conclusions and would therefore say your mortar is surely untempered. Eze 13:14 - So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; Eze 22:28 - And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD has not spoken such. Or maybe it is simply God doesn’t want you to know, in that it isn’t your calling to make these things known unto others. So, to you God might be saying as He did to Daniel (who also wanted to know), said “I heard but I understood not, so I asked, “O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?” Yet the Lord replied, “Go your way, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” And yet, here was Daniel, a man you keep pointing me to, who we both know “in all matters of wisdom and understanding… was found ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.” Yet Daniel was but a deliverer of prophecies and not the deliverer of the interpretations thereof. Over and over Daniel had to ask an angel for their meanings or wait for God to give a vision of interpretation in matters. And yet, because you wanted to know and understand what is written in Revelation, you went and read the Quran and the musings of a prophet of Allah? Really? Is there a good example of this in scripture, for I know of none…. IMHO, any truly regenerated believer should know it is only the Lord that “gives wisdom and understanding,” that the Bible alone is a “sure word of prophecy.” Not Mohammad or Allah, nor a moon god…. Did not God reveal His secrets unto Daniel in a night vision, and Daniel said, “Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are His?” Shiloahsfoal, Daniel didn’t figure any of this out, and neither will you. Did Daniel not tell us that it is the God of the Jews that “changes the times and the seasons, removes and sets up kings, and give wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding,” and not Allah or his prophets? Are you so unwise that you go to another prophet of a moon god to get your understanding? Is God’s ear so dull of hearing that you like Saul cannot get His attention, and yet, because you want to know, you’re willing to run after worldly wise men, sorcerers, wizards, and prophets of other unsaving faiths? It is God alone, who thanks to Jesus Christ by His Spirit, still “reveals the deep and secret things and knows what is in the darkness, for the light dwells with Him.” And yet even if the moon is full, that is the light you choose to walk by, because you want to know? How much better your message would be if you were telling me that, the “God of my fathers, has given me wisdom and might, and has made known unto me what I desired of Him…” Even after his seven years of derangement and madness did Nebuchadnezzar say, “I and extol and honor [only] the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and His ways judgment: and those that walk in pride is He able to abase.” And Belshazzar, when he was greatly troubled with the handwriting on the wall, “and cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers… and all wise men of Babylon” and yet “they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof.” Again, it was Daniel, the prophet of the true and living God that alone could bring an answer, saying “Let your gifts be to yourself, and give your rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.” And Just how was this Daniel you keep pointing to able do this? He had been given this gift, and grace according to the measure of his gift. It was not his wisdom, his own ability, nor even his own desire per se’, but according to God purposes Who sets up and removes kings was Daniel being used. For “To one is given the working of miracles; and to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits; to another is given divers kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of thereof.” And again, do you not know or remember how in Daniel when “It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom, and over these three presidents; of whom Daniel was first?” And how in their pride and jealousy, “All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any god or man for thirty days,” save Darius the king? And that with no other intent of getting Daniel killed, banned from their personal forum? And when Darius realized he had been tricked, how he “was sore displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him,” but couldn’t? So did Darius pray to the Persian gods or seek the counsel of the other “wise men?” No, even this pagan king did no such thing. Instead, “the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: forbidding instruments of music to be brought before him, though his sleep went from him.” And “very early in the morning” Darius arose “and when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel, ‘O Daniel, servant of the living God, was your God whom you serve continually able to deliver you from the lions?’” Because of Daniel, Darius knew that the God of Daniel was alone able to do these things, and therefore ended up making another decree, “That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for HE is the living God, and steadfast forever, and HIS kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and HIS dominion shall be even unto the end.” How much more wisdom could be gleaned form the Book of Ester, with Haman being exposed for all his sins and all his plans finding their fulfillment upon him, instead of the Jews? When King Ahasuerus “hung Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai.” King Ahasuerus too makes a decree he wrote “according to all that Mordecai commanded unto the Jews… in the king Ahasuerus' name, and sealed it with the king's ring, and sent letters by posts on horseback, and riders on mules, camels, and young dromedaries” granting to all “Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay, and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province that would assault them, both little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey. No, no, and again no, I will have no pagan gods involved in my understand… nor do I need prophets of another spirit here…. I will abide in God’s word, and prayer seek His guidance alone to lead me into all truth, living and walking in His Spirit. For what fellowship has the Spirit of Christ with Allah?

(*insert extremely puzzled face here*) Well, I am just amazed... Shilohsfoal, do you remember when you wrote to me last Thursday, (the 28th) on the “Some believe he is the chosen one of end times” thread that got shut down? where you asked asked me, “Why do you [BlindSeeker] think I should read non biblical sources to learn biblical verses?” And you said I was “claiming I'm [or, you - Shilohsfoal, was] making bold words from a position of ignorance" and that it was "is very hateful speech there.” And remember how you said to me that “...you have no idea what you are talking about." ??? And you accused me of hating, telling me, "Your hate of other christians is very disturbing" and "Your hate for the Catholic church is very disturbing." ??? And how you told that me that my “disregard for the word of God is a huge mistake.” ??? And that, “Perhaps it's time you stop reading extra biblical sources and read what the prophets wrote about the man of sin.” ??? Not to mention the report you gave to other one of me about finding fault with others... it is amazing some things you can almost not-avoid tripping over here due to the height of hypocrisy... AND now, you are telling me to read the Quran? and study the musings of Mohamad? Was he one of those "prophets" you were mentioning? REALLY? That is your counsel for gaining understanding of Holy Writ? You are telling people that "If you haven't read the Hadith, then you wouldn't understand??" Has Worthy Boards turned Chrislam? are the Quran and the Hadith written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in you eyes? Truthfully, is Mohammad recognized in your eyes as a prophet of God, or of Allah? Exactly where are you? On what foundation are you building upon? You have truly left me in a sea of disbelief, is this how far Worthy has sunk? Exactly how can this progress with this nonsense from here??? This isn't about "finding fault," because these are your words that I am struggling to understand....

I think for the sake of understanding, it's be best if you presented the foundation of your conclusions. It is evident that almost everyone her has a different prospect and understanding of events and the players. Perhaps your presenting what we don't presently see will expose our blind-spots, and help us to adjust our position of perspective... or the responses could aid you with yours. I promise you, no one here has this figured out... nor will they ever. Like Daniel said in various ways at different times in his life to various rulers, "There is a God in heaven who reveals things to men." Understanding is given only to those who have "received a love for the truth that they might be saved."

Why do you keep referring to her a "harlot" instead of "mother of harlots?"

Does the Mother of Harlots and the red beast she is riding suffer the same fate of destruction from the "ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet?" 1. What is the difference between the one she is riding and the Rev 13:1 beast? 2. Who is the author of all this imagery? 3. Can you explain the various names give to her, "(a) MYSTERY, (b) BABYLON THE GREAT, (c) THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS and (d) ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.?"

Since the dragon has “seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads,” similarly to the beast of Rev 13:1, which has a different body description, but also has “seven heads and ten horns” but instead of “seven crowns upon his heads” is said to have “upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy,” I would ask the following – 1. Would you consider the read dragon also to be a beast, or could based upon its imagery be called a beast? 2. Do you consider the dragon to be the same as the serpent? 3. If not, why not? Who then is the red dragon? 4. Why the difference in crowns between the dragon and the first beast is he a prince under Satan? 5. What is the correlation between "the beast from the earth with two horns as a lamb" and the "Mother of Harlots." 6. Who are the harlot daughters? 7. Do you recognize a civil/religious distinction (similar to that with Ezra/Nehemiah) in the players mentioned between chapter 13-18? Is so how?