David from New Bern

Some time back, this thread was started by David from New Bern. I was reminded about it while discussing a similar topic about denominations and whether they were good or bad? The question is, can the body of Christ really come to a place of complete unity bringing about an end to the need for denominations and basically churches on every corner, or are these divisions necessary? Is it the only way we can have peace when it comes to worshipping God? In addition, does the fact we choose to divide up into groups mean that we think we are the only true church, or is it simply the best system we can come up with given the fact none of us interpret scripture alike, or like the same type of music, style of worship service, or even Bible translations? Hey Butero...My e-mail notification reminded about worthyboards. You mean this thread is still alive...14 months later. I guess we didn't solve this one quickly. The subject came up recently around a cup of coffee with 2 Presbyterians, 2 Baptist, 1 Pentecostal, and an independent Charismatic pastor. In fact, we were all pastors...it was an accountability group I attend on Wednesdays. They are all my friends so we enjoy exploring each others views. I never heard anyone raise their voice when challenged on what they believe. That is unusual among those with credentials in any discipline. The independent charismatic suggested that while denominational origins are the result of conflict they have become a strategic outreach plan. What do you think?

My question was...How patient should the church be? not should they accept the status quo...

What about a situation involving a brand new Christian? The partner has had no similiar expereince with Christ. They are now a new convert living with a non-Christian outside the covenant of marriage, but with children produced through the longterm union. How patient should we be as the church in prescribing separation as the solution?

There are probably about 200 hundred people who think of me as their pastor and probably a few more who would respect my position and would be offended if I didn't recognize them in public. I was thinking the other day as I was stopped by a couple of people at Walmart for conversation, I wonder how Rick Warren would respond to a situation like Walmart. "Be kind to everybody, you might be their pastor!"

Who would ever suggest that love is not confrontational? True love is confrontational. The born again experience is the result of a response to the confrontation of revelation. Our sanctification is the result of continued confrontation of conviction, and discipling is the process of confronting the natural mind with the truth of heaven. But of course most of the issues tearing our churches apart are often not spiritual ones, but the vast numbers of churches are eat up with passivity and compromise, because no one will stand for truth. Because they don't understand the confronting nature of true love. My friends toleration is the subtle attack of Satan.

Rebebekah...It is hard to repent of an objective statement that doesn't call you wrong or me right. My statement stands that the issue at hand that there is only one true answer. To embrace the right answer should be without reservation. If tongues that are happening in the church are legitimate, those not embracing it are missing the work of God here in a crucial point of church history and are guilty of quenching the Spirit...that is a sin...right. If people are practicing speaking in tongues and this is not a work of the Spirit but only an ignorant emotional response of sincere worshippers, Satan is having a heyday with this. i don't believe anyone should argue this...There is only one right answer...this is not simply a matter of preference, style, tradition, or doctrinal emphasis. It is of God or it is a counterfeit of Satan. In either case, our personal feelings should be intentionally sidelined and a hungry search for truth begun. God Bless you as you ask the "Teacher" what the truth is.

I agree probably with your practical goal in your post, but you are incorrect in saying heaven is not our home. We are repeatedly told we are aliens, strangers, pilgrims here. We are told to keep our eyes on the finish line. We are told to be motivated for the rewards of heaven. We are told the test of the genuineness of our faith is a desire to join Him in what He has prepared for us. We are told to be watchful and alert for the second coming. We are told to store our treasures in heaven and not here.....etc...etc...etc... But I agree, our faith is not an elementary "pie in the sky" mentality. We are "saved unto good works". We need to be busy and look forward to the big party but not stall. David, I am glad to finally have something I can agree with you on. I absolutely disagree with that statement about being too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good. I believe it is just the opposite. I believe you can be too carnally minded to be of any good to God. I agree with you that for the Christian, heaven is our home and we are strangers and pilgrims on this earth. We are citizens of the Kingdom of God and ambassadors in this world. As such, we should be about the Father's business while here below. Concerning A.K. and Tess's position about living eternally on a renovated earth, I do not disagree with that. After the millenial reign of Christ there will be a new heaven and a new earth, but until Christ sets up his kingdom, the departed Christians will dwell in heaven. I suppose one could claim to be "renovated earthly minded" and then debate the issue of whether that is good or bad. Hey Butero...we agree and no reservation...But there really is a lot we do agree on we just converse most often on the few areas we disagree...But it is nice to celebrate absolute agreement.

Nothing like a good political discussion to bring WorthyBoards to a filibuster....

What about this verse? We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.1 John 3:14NKJV

I would like to see proof that it changes the molecular structure of food. What about Lord pleaswe remove the calories and the excessive fat grams

This sounds like a simple question, but you will not find a more profound and defining question in the Christian faith. As you know the book of James discusses the tension between faith and works, but I chose different words to hopefully open our minds to the spiritual tension of the argument. Which is more important?...Doing or being?

I worded this thread carefully...The question is not a discussion about divorce or avoiding divorce but one about a divorce has happened, what can I do in the life of the church with my new marital status? So no matter how you feel about divorce, it is a reality in every church and every denomination. What can these people look forward to doing with their giftedness and new painful experiences?

Occasssionally, I will meet a "professing" Christian who will display in their conversation a deep cultural prejudice against blacks or hispanics. Immediatetly their authienticity as a Christian is questionable. A whole volume of Scriptures start racing through my head how about you. But in this thread, if we can try to reach a conclusion. Can a biggot be a Christian?

One of the minimal Christian expectations it seems, is at least to pray over the meal in private or in the public. But, do we do that because tradition tell us or is this the "11th commandment"? If you are in a non-Christian setting do you lead the prayer or do you pray privately to yourself? If responding please separate what you term Biblical interpretation from what personal conviction leads you to do.

The number one excuse by non-christians for not associating with us is..."the church is full of nothing but a bunch of hypocrits." The word means actor or one playing a role. It really surprises them when I say, "you are exactly right, we are all a bunch of hypocrits." Now, I'm convinced that we may be capable to maintain hypocrisy-free extended periods of time, but in this earthly existence we are never completely free of the contradiction of our actions not matching our desires. What do you think? Are we all hypocrits?

Hey...thanks for the Robert Newton quote...thanks mate...arggghh!

Jackie; Know that I love you...don't let our opposing views stand in the way of you knowing that I have great admiration for who you are and what you have allowed God to do in and through your life. I may never meet you face to face here, but one day I will tell you face to face. We can praise the Lord together for what His grace has done in our lives. Please don't let this thread I started discourage or hamper you in any way. I would be wrong to simply try to out debate you the Holy Spirit will teach both of us the truth.

Disease is sin David, all disease is sin. And just as God is not a simple being but one with many dimensions He has included things in ALL issues that have more than just a concept of the human mind that things can be as simple. Maybe I do not make sense to those who don't and haven't lived it. There is a consumation of the entire being that tells me addiction/bondage is sin. And on the flip side there is a consumation of the enire being that tells me addiction/bondage is disease. I don't view God as moderate, David. I view Him as a complex being. Death is the wage of sin, disease is a way of death. Sin + disease could equal addiction/bondage..or any number of other things such as cancer or diabetes. I am not trying to be a text book example of medical and psyciatric medicine and science. But just as we know God created the earth and all that is in it..medicine and psychiatry exist for a reason. And not every doctor or psychiatrist or scientist out there doesn't believe in God. Do I believe that God is the only way to the cure for ALL disease absolutely. And it saddens me to see people get caught up in the LIE that once an addict always an addict. Fortunately many who find the road to recovery enter anonymous groups that believe in a "higher power" and that often leads to finding God. Who then can lead them away from the lies and docterines of disbelief that they can never be cured or become a new creation. And because this is such a terrible affliction that consumes the entire being it is a blessing that these groups are formed. They are not perfect. But the 12 steps of the programs come directly from the bible..when Bill W..one of the founders of AA..got sober he sought God and God showed him that all he had done while living in the disease/bondage was forgivable through those 12 steps/having originated in the NT. Which of course would lead to Jesus and forgiveness of the sins commited while living in the disease/bondage/addiction. Many people when they get clean and sober have difficulty with God because of where they have been and what they have experienced. It is often through those 12 steps that God is found and true healing of this disease/bondage occurs. We may not be in agreement with how the process is done. But let me ask you if a person is seeking help and finds it and finds God in the process isn't God's greatest desire reached? He would that none should perish. I am for learning about all aspects of this disease/bondage and though I know in my heart of hearts that the lies about this bondage being with me forever is not true. But each and every one of us was brought out of our bondage in manners that amaze and confuse us. Yes you are right many are lost through concepts such as this disease that are learned through the eyes of man. But many are found. Generational curses and genetics do carry disease from one family member to the other. God even said it would happen. The bible tells me so. And because of that I can not be swayed in believing that disease and sin do not go hand in hand. God also points us to the cure/healing of these diseases and sins and I cannot be swayed in that either. Have a God blessed day There are some gaps of understanding between the two of us. I have never been a substance abuser, but I have a wealth of ministry experience with the issues. And have been involved long enough to see some turn the corner to stability and spiritual productivity. So, I'm use to the vernacular and the arguments that would likely surface in a continued conversation. I love people and am willing to work with the understanding the person has at the point of seeking help or with the understanding the person has at a later point of reflection. Disease is not sin. Disease is the result of sin in the world. It was a curse as the result of the fall of Adam and Eve. Genesis 3 is very clear on this. Disease effects all of humanity, it is an environmental issue. Lastly, we have to be careful of a Utilitarian philosophy that as long as it gets results erroneous belief is ok. I sensed personal pain earlier in your post. This is a personal pain for this pastor, who sees individuals believing their 12 step program is a spiritual program and that they don't need the church. Or will not step into the stability of faith walking for they are concerned they are one Friday night away from embarassing everybody. I know you don't fit that description but I know those who are in that situation. We say 12 step programs are great steps in intervention, but at some point become the problem as well. There is a great book I suggest you read called Addicted to Recovery. It explains my concerns well. From the surface this may seem to be a semantical argument. But, deception is subtle, that is why it is deceptive. It seems logical. As for the psychiatric and medical community, they are having little or no success. People who recover have had a spiritual awakening. That has been my subjective experience. When people begin thinking Biblically things begin happening in their life that become permanent and attest to the spiritual not metaphysical aspect of the issue.

Jackie; It is a deeply personal issue for you, and I know it can't be anything but that for you. I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings unnecessarily. But, this is important enough, and the stakes are high enough for people unlike yourself who have not beaten it. There are bunch who have bought this philosophy hook line and sinker and sit in defeat rather than victory. This will be my last post unless I am invited to continue. Please tell me what sin is not addictive? The biblical word is bondage, who is the bondage breaker? If this discussion were about demonic influence or possession it would be a more credible argument. I have a copy of Newsweek magazine from a few years back, they claim they have isolated a abnormality in the brain of Kleptomaniacs. So next, we can claim we are predisposed to stealing. Then Hell is going to be full of handicap people.according to 1 Corinthians 6:11. Jackie, I love your spirit and you have ministered to me. Regardless if you agree God is using you in a mighty way. I ask only that you let the Bible speak for itself. I respectfully suggest it can't be a disease and sin, there is no moderate view.

What is the subject of this thread?...We seem to have digressed...

I agree probably with your practical goal in your post, but you are incorrect in saying heaven is not our home. We are repeatedly told we are aliens, strangers, pilgrims here. We are told to keep our eyes on the finish line. We are told to be motivated for the rewards of heaven. We are told the test of the genuineness of our faith is a desire to join Him in what He has prepared for us. We are told to be watchful and alert for the second coming. We are told to store our treasures in heaven and not here.....etc...etc...etc... But I agree, our faith is not an elementary "pie in the sky" mentality. We are "saved unto good works". We need to be busy and look forward to the big party but not stall.

David, Had you read the previous threads you would have seen that I understand the deceptiveness of the disease and what satan plants in us making us believe we don't have a choice. We (addicts) are diagnosed with a disease and are told that it is incurable, I disagree. I know that God heals ALL disease and afliction. I was told I didn't have a choice. I also know that is wrong. If I am not in the disease (relapsed) I am able to let God protect me in a way that keeps me from using drugs and am able to recognize that when thoughts of using are coming into my head it is because satan is planting them there, not because of my disease but because he can use my disease as a tool to get me away from God and back into that sinful lifestyle. When a person is using they pretty much don't have a choice because the drugs/alcohol hinder logical and right thinking. I found myself so many times wanting to not use but using anyhow. As Paul said, that which I know I should not do I do and that which I should do I don't..it is sin. I know it is sin. But getting out of that sin sometimes takes years and years and is a very painful process, not just emotionally, but physically and psychologically. I have not seen anything yet that tells me that addiction is not a disease and stand firm that it is really a disease. It is a psychological disease that runs in families and is also a familial curse. Disease is of satan because of sin. They run in families because that is the curse God gave. I totally understand that. And I understand through experience of living in the disease what it does to people. I do not feel that this scews my view nor do I believe that satan decieves me any longer into believing this is something I have to live with. If it is a disease...is it viral? or genetic?...If it is genetic...God is to blame. Then there may be some credibility that homosexuals are born genetically defective, then God is at fault. If it is a disease, we should not prosecute crimminal cases where acting out of symptomatic substance abuse is known or found. We would not prosecute a person with narcolepsy who killed someone in an automobile accident. I know I'm being hard line on this, but if Scripture says we are new creatures....all things have passed away.....behold all things have been made new. That is what is said about your salvation. Any area we continue to be controlled means we are living under a deception in that particular area. The whole disease argument is smoke and mirrors trying to create an unholy marriage between secular pyschiatry and the truth of Scripture. The word sin is not in the glossary of the psyche text, but the word disease or abnormality. I'll take the Biblical approach and think in terms of eternity rather than the next 24 hours. I have a friends with 10-20-30-40-50 years of sobriety who are now adddicted to a program and a philosophy that tells them they could relapse because diseases do that you know.

Behavior patterns are hard to break, in Biblical speak that is known as the old nature. Yes, much of the old sin nature must still be dealt with on a issue by issue basis. That is what sanctification is all about. But, we are talking about habits. The familiar ways of entertaining, comforting, coping, and manipulating our lives. But Scripture, plainly says we are new creatures set free,"such were some of you" The point of the thread, is it a disease or sin? A sin I would have to say. A choice, a failure to recognize the truth, "I have been set free...instead I prefer excuse"

SOUL PATROL!

The subjectiveness of this thread sometimes will handicap our discussion. Those who have lived in addiction sometimes forget they have lived in deception. A deception that says you don't have a choice you are hopelessly bound to this behavior. The disease argument matches their reality. I hate to be this blunt, but you have a hard time being objective about what has happened when you are the one that was deceived. Before you dismiss this direct comment. Think biblically and dismiss your interpretation of your experiences, which are one dimensional at best for just a few moments.... If the argument is environmental influence that leads to alcoholism, you've got my support. But a gene or genetic link, is the medical pyschiatric field making up answers that they have no satisfactory proof only theories. But it is a keen way to dismiss responsibility. "He/She can't help it they are sick." Of course, there are plenty of crutches and cliche's that say you don't ever have to submit to permanent change because you are _(DIAGNOSIS). Jesus says we are set free, we don't have to pray for healing of a "behavioral disease." Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole.