David from New Bern

Re-read this until you are sure you understand what I'm saying...thats not an arrogant statement that I'm the wisest one in the thread...It is however, a preparation for you to follow to the end what I'm saying. Then if you dissagree with me you will actually know specifically at one point in my thought development that you separate with me. Let's say I join a church as a discerning believer with an active prayer life, and am a student of the Word. As I get involved with this church I see corruption or false doctrine or a lack of depth in the church that was not apparent to me before I joined. I have a responsibility to the Kingdom of God to confront and challenge this body as the Holy Spirit gives me opportunity. In fact, I may have been sent to effect change in this church as God's catalyst for change. Let's say, that the Holy Spirit releases me from this assignment and I move to another church...and another church...and another church. Doesn't it seem logical if there is no viable church in the community in which to participate in, that this may be a directive to plant a church. If you are knowledgeable enough to judge the ineffectiveness of the churches in your community you should be knowledgeable enough to start a home church. If this is not an option, I believe the only one left is to abandon the community and go where there is a legitimate church. The bottom line, are you sherking the responsibility by being a self-imposed church orphan? I'm finding a lot of people here who feel they can interpret and argue Scripture and Christian history,but are submitted to no church. But can't see the obvious fact, that the church is the instrument God is using until He returns. Imperfect, due to the wolves among the sheep...what kind of love would an under shepherd have for the sheep if he abandoned them to save himself the aggravation of personal involvement in a tense situation? Paul and Peter warned that there is an attack from within coming. Their instruction was not to abandon the ship but to stay in there and fight for its purity. This is the fight you will be rewarded for by participating in as a representative of truth. Where would we be if Wycliff, Tyndall,Huss, Luther, Bonhoeffer decided to drop out rather than stay in the game?

I already responded with one embarassing moment but reading behind you guys reminded me of another incident. I don't get a lot of invitations to speak outside of my home church but a few. And most of the time the churches are simple and homey, but this one time I was invited to one very elaborate downtown church in my parent's hometown. I was excited about the opportunity and put tremendous time into my preparation. I picked out my best suit and put it in the car and traveled to my parent's house 120 miles away from where I live. Got up that Sunday morning and dressed. My shoes are one of the last things I put on. I had forgot to pack my dress shoes. The only shoes I had was an extremely comfortable but very worn pair of scuffed up tennis shoes. I had 45 minutes to get ready and no one including neighbors wore a 13W shoe. No one in the neighborhod. So I went to the First Baptist Church in a sharp suit in my bang around shoes. I have never seen such a raised pulpit six steps up to the patform. Have you ever noticed how people shake your hand and look down to your shoes. My dad said don't worry nobody will notice. Dad you have been right about a lot of things but you were wrong on that day. But the kids on the back row thought I was a pretty cool preacher.

apothanein kerdos...While I appreciate your scholarly explanation, I think a simplier approach is possible. To what degree can I consume this culture's entertainment, technology, and world view and remain unaffected? Can I be a viable witness if I listen to the same music, have the same DVD's in my library, know all the crude jokes my friends have told? Seen 7 of last year's top 10 box office successes. Even if I can do that, would consuming the world like that leave my spiritual life unaffected? But, should I be so prude as not to listen to nothing but gospel, have no TV, and go to no movies? Would I ever have a witnessing opportunity if I never develop relationships outside of church and church activities? Is preparing for witnessing opportunities being a cautious consumer of this culture that I might identify how to best converse with the world in a meaningful way?

I agree but must emphasize that we must be careful and work hard to preserve our attitude and faith through interaction with the "world"--because it contains constant and often unexpectant temptation. I think the reason for more extreme forms of piety is to avoid having to take this ultimately pointless care and diligence. Ultimately, most of our interactions with the "world" are not going to matter, so why bother interacting with it when I have to be so careful and diligent not to let the "world" take me under? becomes the question. I disagree: I think our interactions with the world matter a great deal! How will we bring others to Christ if we never interact with the same things they do? They will only look at us and say "they don't know anything about me or the world I live in, so why does their teaching have anything to do with me?" Even Jesus, when He was praying for us, said "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." (John 17:15), so obviously our being in the world has a purpose. [/quote Iryssa...Please comment on how we can still engage the world without being a participant in their world...How can we be holy and evangelistic?

Kalashnikova...we do indeed serve a good, merciful and gracious Lord. Thank God as the Psalmist said that He has not dealt with us according to our failings, but has given to us out of His abundance because He love us. That has been my experience first hand in dealing with the Almighty God that we serve. But, while my relationship with Him is secure because of what Jesus done, my fellowship is restricted from time to time due to the presence of sin in my life unconfessed. The Bible actually suggested that God will turn His face away from us and withold fellowship as a chastisement. But you are absolutely correct to suggest that if we confess the fellowship is immediately restored as a promise of our relationship.

The 2 extremes of Christian piety go from legalism and it's structured sets of rules to the extreme of no rules and permission to consume the world and its pleasures without guilt. I submit that truth is somewhere in the middle of the extremes of the modern practice or non-practice of holiness. Does being a Christian mean that I have no TV, no computer, don't go to movies, don't listen to any music other than gospel? Or is it everyone according to his own conscience? Is this a personal standard or should our children be held to our beliefs on this matter? At what point would we correct a fellow Christian for dancing to the beat of pop culture?

I missed something reading behind you guys. What is the connection between Falwell anf Haggee, other than being round preachers on TV?

I was asked one night to speak at a church across town as the keynote speaker. The older man that was to introduce me to the audience had met me one night 20 years earlier. He had come to my aid in the middle of the night because my car was stuck in the woods I was up to no good. What was he going to say? I knew I was forgiven, but at that moment I lived that night all over again.

I think the whole issue comes down to how did the church experience growth. Was it a genuine move of God or a case of ingenious marketing. You can build a church with PR skills because the general public is pretty naive, they have no real discernment. They all want to be apart of something successful overnight. They become blind to the shallowness. However, there are many large churches that are the result of faithful preaching and reaching. But, in most of the cases I am aware it was not overnight but decades.

FOR Give NESS Just as God has forgiven you

The book of Acts is the birth of the church, in those chapters you find the function and importance of the church for mutual support, equipping, organization for mission, and discipline. All the books of the NT following are addressed to churches, some on mission and some not. Jesus established the church and concept... And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.Matthew 16:18NKJV Immediately following this use of the term and concept Jesus gave authority over the believer to the church... And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.Matthew 18:17NKJV When we are saved we are placed in the cradle of a church, we are raised and brought to maturity for service, then we find our place of service in the context of the work of the church inside and outside the walls of the meeting place. Before anybody goes there, no it is not a church building, but it a relationship of mutual submission. It is there we learn to love and care for each other. When churches are healthy and not dysfunctional God adds to their numbers daily those that are saved according to Acts 2. In short, this is what a church is and what a parachurch cannot completely address. This board is a wonderful tool, but most of us here are almost anonymous hiding behind created names. You don't know if I live what I preach or if I just consider myself an intellectual who enjoys the banter. There is no active way to get involved in my life fully in this forum. It is very valuable to me, but it doesn't meet my need for the local visible body of Christ. If I were to lose the ability to use this forum I would miss it greatly. And I have only been using it for a week. But if I lost the local church, my walk with the Lord would suffer.

Ruck1b...thanks for the input...but your quote is from Matthew 18 when Jesus addressed accountabilty and church discipline. "The two or three" quote is one the most abused. It is used as an awkward excuse for poor attendance. But Jesus was dealing with keeping the church pure by confronting dissension or sin that threatened the body. This passage points t the need to confront for the purpose of restoration. This is not a church but a parachurch organization. It is suppose to compliment the work of the church. Yes, we are the church invisible but not the church visible. Parachurch organizations are a vehicle by which evangelical Christians work collaboratively both outside their and across their denominations to engage with the world in mission, social welfare and evangelism. Through many decentralized organizations, parachurch organizations function to bridge the gap between the church and culture. These are organizations "alongside" (Grk: para-) church structures, and often seek to be less institutional, however over time, with growth and success, and in response to environmental pressures they can become more institutional. What is a parachurch? And where do can you give me more concerning that observation

Actually I never had any bad experiences from the churches I've bee involved with, only some doctrinal differences. Yes I like the on-line fellowship. Its very diverse' cheers, eric. Eric, (repeated) do you believe that church experience is optional in being an obedient Christian?

Eric, do you believe that church experience is optional in being an obedient Christian? You left me that impression when you said following a negative experience that you have substituted with this on-line fellowship. [/quote Are we not assemble together right now. This is the Church...when TWO OR THREE are gathered together. The Church is not a organization, it is an organism. The Church is something living. The Church is the coporate expression of Jesus Christ.

Now your last question, " are you a victim of apostacy and does God see it differently.?" the answer to the first half...defintely No. Not at the present time and I pray that God strenghthens me enough to stay the same when the crunch comes. The second part? Well God knows my heart and I am not sure if He sees it differently or not. Eric, I was not suggesting here that you are an apostate. I was referring to the mistreatment you received at the hands of an apostate church. Please understand that.

First of all I have no *disgust* with the organised church, as you put it. There are still some good places to to go to get fed the true gospel of the Lord, only they are hard to find. I spend a lot of time on Worthy and share my knowledge of the truth with the other brethren, thereby keeping in touch with what is going on in different denominational churches. Eric, do you believe that church experience is optional in being an obedient Christian? You left me that impression when you said following a negative experience that you have substituted with this on-line fellowship.

Here's the problem........when do we leave?.and where do we go? I was involved with the Word of Faith movement for about 20 years and I started to do a deep study of....................... just what do the leaders of the WOF believe? Is it another gospel? What I found out was heart breaking. One example is.......they do not believe the cross of Christ was enough to atone for sin. Now if I would tell my pastor and he rejects what I say and continues in their teaching, what should we do? We have to go to the Word. Paul says some bold things to the Galations............ Gal 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. David, it is a big problem...............we have to be led by the Spirit, rather we stay or go. In his love, Brian Doctrinal error must be confronted as a responsibiltiy of a believer, if the leadership is heretical its probably a counterfeit church. Which I believe WOF is. I don't think any discernment is required there. God opened your eyes be thankful. The discernment would be in finding another church family where you can be discipled and find your function in the body of believers. God has no orphans in His design.

FOR Give NESS Part #4 The test of maturity Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. Colossians 3:12-13 NKJV And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 NKJV Forgiveness reflects the character of God. Unforgivingness is therefore ungodly. It is not a minor issue or personal prerogative. Forgiveness is so much a part of the Christian

"Jamie said in one post that I have a good church, well as a matter of fact I stopped going to church a long time ago, because of the change in the preaching of of the true gospel of Christ and the wishywashy sermons " Eric... I'm still in pursuit of my subject matter and I am looking to understand where people are at in their understanding of apostasy and where do they see it. If your disgust with organized church has you living independent of its operation are you living in apostasy? The Scripture gives a direct command not to forsake the asssembly of yourselves (Hebrews 10:25). If we remove the NT understranding of the Body of Christ what is left in your understanding? Have you abandoned your calling to be the catalyst of change in your local body? There are certainly examples of unhealthy church's in the Scripture that God called individuals to be apart for the sake of steering the body back on course. Most of inspired Scripture is the result of problems being addressed. Billy Grahmam is quoted as saying, "If you find the perfect church. please don't join it, you will ruin it." Don't misread what I am saying. I want to hear you rational because I want to learn. I spent 10 years unattached to any church in a meaningful way while I was a Christian broadcaster. I am familiar with the disenchantment. Eric, help me understand are you truly a victim of apostasy or does God see it differently?

Bellarose...(very moving piece) do you mind if I use your poem in full or in part? If it becomes a published work I would be more than willing to give you credit. Who knows what door God could be opening?

Eric said earlier that he didn't believe that a true Christian could apostasize...I take it that he believes (certainly others do) that apostasy is a fatal state, meaning there is no returning from that state of being. I would be interested in hearing more discussion in this area

"Of course, the culmination of that which is taking place in the lives of God's people will not be realized until the resurrection" There is no disagreement here. Your last line completely satisfied me, but I'm sure there are some in this forum who will disagree with you and I. Like most of these discussions if we keep talking and reducing we will find agreement or at least where we part. Thank you for your willingness to keep reducing it until we communicated. I like it when discussions end this well.

Ovedya...I accept your disagreement as that a disagreement about church history. I will even grant you that they are viable subjective reads of what you quote. But, for my benefit is there any disagreement with this explanation....Does this offend your understanding of Theosis? We were created in God's image. This meant we were compatiable with God in that we have an intelligence but finite compared to his omniscience. We are definitely emotional creatures as God, but His emotions are always led by His flawless character. Our emotions follow our ego driven lives. As God has a will man has a will, but again character separates us. Man was not comparable to God's qualitity but created with the capability to relate or have fellowship with God in these areas. Intimacy with God was possible, but lost in Genesis 3 when distrust was introduced by the serpent. In an instant, sweet intimacy was destroyed between man and God and man and woman. Cast out of the garden as the result of the selfish ego that preferred self promotion over intimacy with God, the resulting sinful tendency becomes the rest of human history up to this point. The Bible is the story of God's redemptive plan to restore the innocence man had at creation. It is then through sanctification (bringing man to the image of Christ) that we explore the superior character of God and we learn of His loves and His hates which promotes and restores the intimacy lost in the garden. A man with his Creator in transparent fellowship. When redemptions plan is complete He gives us total victory over this inferior flesh. Then we will live in perfect compatibility the way He designed. A superior with a subordinate in an environment of no competition or rebellion. In the development of the doctrine of theosis, or in any sectarian take or interpretation, if it disagrees with this original state, developing plight, or restoration plan. It is my opinion in error. If someone believe that sinless perfection happens this side of the grave, I believe that they have closed their eyes to reality. I think a lot of bad doctrine developes from missing this understanding of the "image of God" and the "image of Christ".

Christ's free servant... Thanx for the details and the insight from your experiences. I'm sure glad that you presevered beyond this horrible incident. I hope you have properly dealt with this issue in the area of forgiving this wrong you have suffered. I too see people following the best seller's list and assuming they can trust the content as being biblical. When someone get's saved in our church, I'm almost tempted to tell them to turn off Christian TV and if you go to the Christian bookstore, I want to go with you.