David from New Bern

Dr. Spock wrote books and lectured and put this question in the forefront of people's minds 30+ years ago and called for no spanking...and he had no children. It might be interesting to tie the belief with practical experience. Example...I believe spanking has a limited but functional role in early childhood development. It teaches actions have consequences and authority must be adhered to in the home. I beleive when the child gets old enough that substantial force must be used to gain that effect. It is time to find some creative punishment rather that physical striking. I have 3 children...ages 21, 18, 15 and all three are in the church and respectful individuals (most of the time). It is also interesting to note that I disciplined all three according to their personality. My oldest is a female and I could just raise my voice and accomplish discipline. I spanked her probably 4 or 5 times in all of her growing up years. The last spanking I gave her she was probably 6 or 7. My middle child is what Dobson calls a strong willed child. I don't know how many times I spanked him. But, at about age 12 I found creative ways to punish him that he laughs about today. He loves to tell about standing on a chair yo-yo-ing for most of the day and writing creative essays and reading them to the family. My youngest child, I remember spanking only once. He grew up with me be largely distracted pursuing education and ministry. Now at 15 I am having a fairly difficult time getting him to respect authority at times, particularly authority outside the home. He is a good compassionate person, but he has a temper and will get physical. My point is spanking early on is not abusive. I have never been angry physically disciplining my kids...I waited until I had thought it through for maxium benefit

I have been observing this thread since the beginning, I started it hoping to create thought. There are several key passages that people jump to according to their bias. We all have bias by the way on this issue, it is usually loosely based on our own childhood experiences. We either default to doing what our parents provided for us or we rebell from our parents methods and adjust our own parneting skills too reflect a distaste for our our upbringing. You reflect the later. There are two things that you reveal in your post that disturb me. They are honest statements but dangerous statements. Perhaps they reflect emotion but not conviction. Your opening "I don't care whether its in the bible or not as to whether you can or can't do it." The Word is our standard and we submit to it. It is not tainted by childhood expereinces but reveals the heart of God and His perfect standard in all of its wisdom. Your later declaration that you hate your father will lead to deep problems and will adversely distort your own parenting skills. I do not say these things just to be confrontive. I pray you will rethink them in light of spiritual truth. This is more than a small issue of culture or personality

It really depends if you handle this from a objective theological perspective or a more subjective way. From a purely theological standpoint He knows His sheep, so whether He does that by foreknowledge or foreordaining my salvation to happen, the outcome is still the same He knows the who is who. Scripture promises He watches after His own. So regardless, of my progression toward salvation He acts with my known status in His perfect redemptive plan. One final point, only the Father Himself can manage this efficently. His intervention (as you have called it) affects people around me. Example: I am lost. I have a severe auto accident and God gives me a miraculous recovery. That event in my life positively affects my family, lets say one of my children gets saved. His intervention in my life, was actually for the benefit of the child. So, what am I saying, I believe many lost people are benefitting by being in the vicinity of God taking care of His children. Or they may experience the affects of God disciplining His children as well. I am reminded of Jonah on that one.

Same here it kind of reminds me of table topics at Toastmasters, if you are unsure of the subject you are given, you just play word association.

Can anybody tell me what ADHD stands for?

yep I'm not playing word games with this...I am merely following the thought process...so I'm not looking to say something with double meaning...just thinking out loud...If the thought is a genuine temptation, it has to be desirable to me. I am not tempted by cauliflower but I am tempted by 14 layer chocolate cake. But being tempted by chocolate cake is not sinful. So when does the sin begin? When I pick up the biggest slice when I dismiss health issues to consume? When does the thought before action Constitute sin? James Dobson suggest that sexual lust is easier to identify as sinful tinking. He said the first glance is purely chemical but the prolonged look is sinful or the undressing in the mind of an object of sexual desire.

This is a tough question David. I agree with you that truth is exact. The problem is that I think there are many who have investigated their views in light of scripture and still come to diametrically different opinions. I think that most of us believe we have the truth or we wouldn't be arguing that our positions are correct. I have no doubt you believe in your heart that the gifts of the Spirit are not in operation in the church today and I completely disagree. I feel confident that we have both sought for truth on this matter yet disagree. The same can be said of the OSAS doctrine and several other views. I know we cannot both be right, but I don't know how God views our errors. What if you are right on some positions and I am on others therefore we are both found to be off in the sight of God? What is the answer? Do we all just keep our mouths shut and instead of discussing different views, simply speak the Bible and stop at that? That brings up yet another controversy, which Bible version do we speak from? Bottom line is that if God wanted us to be in perfect unity of doctrine and wanted his church to have all truth we would have it. I believe it is his will that we not know it all so we will continually seek him all of our days. As we do, hopefully we will be teachable when it comes to accepting the guidance of the Holy Spirit and grow in truth. Missed you brother...For some reason we haven't been traveling the same threads recently...You know what?...I don't disagree with you....I do agree the gifts are in operation in the church, I just don't believe the sign gifts are happening as frequently as you do or as necessary as you do...You are amazing Butero, you just about fit all the hot topics in your response, but yur forgot women wearing dresses As I always love talking to you and enjoying our fellowship and proving that the love of God is what creates the fellowship not our sameness on issues.

How far is doubting God from calling Him a liar? That is the real question in my estimation.

Sad to say my spiritual growth never got kick started until I was asked to teach an adult Sunday School class. There were two lawyers in the classroom and I wanted to be prepared for anything they might throw at me. Crazy enough pride put me in the WORD, but I fell in love with it after I dove in. But, being preached at and taught in Sunday School class were not enough to spurn real growth until I started consuming the Word on a daily in my personal life. I could tell I was growing when I always packed a Bible when I went out of town, and to this day I have a Bible always near me. That is not a pride issue but a dependency issue. however today many go to church and don't even have a Bible handy.

Hello David, Would you be implying that our need for personal Scriptural reading,study, and prayer have been replaced with a lot of "on the go" and "weekend warrior" types of teaching/instruction that people just don't take the time to question, and consume it blindly? Blessings, in His service -CC- BINGO!

Why would some listings of cults include Freemasonry, Seven Day Adventism, and World-Wide Church of God and others don't? ...I think I just got whiplash from being escorted to the Controversial issues forum

Mr. Worm...you pose 5 questions...here is my response in the same order 1. Sanctification is not a passive event it takes participation...We participate in our sanctification...The Holy Spirit empowers us... But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.2 Peter 1:5-9NKJV 2. I was speaking of unhealthy church situations where the pastor tells you how to feel and behave and does nothing to encourage you in private study habits and attempts to be a substitute for the Holy Spirit for you by not trusting the Spirit to teach you through the Word unaided by pastoral authority (whatever that is in his/her mind). And the additional comment response...Jesus was the once and for all sacrament, I don't need a clergy to absolve my sins. I need only his leadership to examine my own life and allow the Holy Spirit to convict me. 3. "Preparing a meal for themselves" is not the perfect euphenism, but what I meant was the average person will not read and study the Bible for themselves and thus have stunted growth. Proof of that is that the average Christian can't lead his/her own family is a meaningful Bible study. The pastor has to feed and regurgitate on Sunday morning. When we need to be eating all week long or live an anemic testimony. 4 and 5. I can speak this way because I am in the church and love the church and therefore I speak the truth with love. Bashing is a cutting remark intending to lower someone or something and give oneself the appearance of superiority. I speak only as one with a lot of church expereince and the frustration of an individual trying to be a tool of God to speak the message that might alert someone to the truth of God's expectations of us.

WORM...all original material here...what question does it create in your mind and I will try to address it.

Journaling is a very effective way of uncovering the heart for easier discernment and evaluation of where you are at in your development. I do not journal everyday but do on significant occassion when I'm trying to work through emotional confusion or spiritual frustration. I believe the real value of the practice is going back to read it on the other side of the issues you right about. I always suggest to counselees to pursue the practice as self-examination.

We have created the undershepherd role into something that was never meant to be. Nearly all the denominational and church structures default to a Pastor endoctrinates and people follow or never explore their own sanctification. Discipling is not brain washing or creating a totally dependent relationship. Discipling is creating students of the Word and firsthand consumers of the faith. The first cuple years of an infants life we feed them but eventually they need to pick up the spoon and eventually learn where the kitchen is and prepare a meal for themselves. By the way have you notice that people don't cook at home like they use to...and our physical health is beginning to show it. There is a hidden message in that last line.

When do temptations become sin...we all know it is not a sin to be tempted (Jesus was). But temptation is a thought...I agree with you that our thoughts can be sin without ever taking action on them. So when does a temptation cross the line into first person sin?

I am a Baptist pastor who is not ignorant of other views (emphasis, overemphasis, underemphasis) of doctrine. I spent my early years in the Church of God. I find myself wanting to say this to the OP. The beauty of Worthyboards is the spectrum of who is here. Diversity is what you should expect and not control. Limiting your scope to non-pentecostal participants is not fair to the forum. I would completely agree with you if you suggested than anyone respinding please identify from what background or expereinces that are affecting your comments. Just as I have at the beginning of this post. I believe it is polite and productive to do so. Now, if someone dismisses completely your comments as ignorant because of your denominational bias their comments should be dismissed or as we say, "consider the source, when evaluating what has been said."

Moderation is a term that some people use to defend a relaxed approach instead of a more stringent legalistic interpretation of acceptable behavior. Does the Bible teach moderation or is everything simply codefied?

Have you ever heard someone say, "God judges the intent of the heart"? Is this a Biblically correct statement? Is there an allowance for failure based on good intentions?

I hope no one here believes in relativism. I hope we we all understand theology is not merely about opinion or preference. Truth is exact and the only variable is my grasp of it. With that said, How do you think the Father feels about the erroneous beliefs that we tout as Divine truth? When we state opposing views in discussion, someone is wrong. When we refuse to investigate or expose our beliefs to examination is He angered when we stand on error? Or is He content to judge us only by our sincerity?

I repent in dust and ashes.....first thing tomorrow morning!

If these are burning questions in your mind, do yourself a favor a buy a book called...More than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell. It is short, direct, and enjoyable read that will practically challenge you. McDowell was writing a philosophy dissertation on the very things you suggest in your post and he will walk you through his conversion to faith in Christ in exactly as the Bible protrays Him. By the way it is an inexpensive book and a bestseller for 25 years or more.

Did you say your name is Thomas? That's okay Jesus still loves you and the proof is in the faith. I know it is just a cliche, but I don't really believe God ask for blind faith but sighted faith from opened eyes.

Amen to that In James, we are instructed to "lay hands on the sick and they WILL recover." God promised us here that he would "show up." It is our job to lay hands on the sick. A pre-planned meeting is an excellent place to lay hands and let God demonstrate his power through our obedience and faith. If you do not have faith God will manifest, you are wasting your time praying for the sick. Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.Matthew 13:58 NKJV...This was said of Jesus. Forgive me for insisting on context but the James passage you mention instructs elders of the church who would know the spiritual condition of the petitioner that is why there is a reference to confession and repentance tied to the annointing.with the oil. Which by the way meant take your medicine and pray. We can also conclude with good argument this is also a reference related to suffering emanating frm persecution.

You are right Leonard this is the definition that most of us work with practically.