David from New Bern

Paul was not against large assemblies. He was against cross cultural assemblies where minorities were not given the benefit of explanation of what was going or the use of many languages without an interpreter. Don't reduce church to people hanging out. Although churches without the spirit probably equate to that in reality. But biblical church is much more and accomplishes a whole lot more than fellowship. The Bible is the WORD of GOD, it is powerful, it reads me. I'm not so sure your quoting yourself, "THE BIBLE WITHOUT THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT IS USELESS" is the best choice of words, or exactly what you are trying to communicate. But I will return the favor with my quote and let you guess what I mean. I hope to see you in church tonight, we're hanging out in a Revelation study and afterward we are going to be involved in a mentoring program over a cup of coffee at a local restaurant. Tomorrow night a couple of us guys are going to a prison ministry opportunity. Actually I'd say he was refering to speaking in unknown spiritual toungues.....not cross cultural. You actually bit into my point very well, he wasn't opposed to large diverse gatherings....this was actually a display of the beauty of koinonia. Without clear direction a large crowd of multiple languages and culture can be confusing. So order was needed because God was trying to accomplish something productive and miraculous in their gathering. (by the way I'm not arguing against speaking in tongues) Pentecost was the birth of the church, not just the advent of the Holy Spirit abiding in the believer.

No forced application, follow the advice of preceding post about kindness and compassion displayed, and at a moment the Holy Spirit directs ask don't tell..."If you don't mind me asking, what is going through your mind right now?" If they respond with an indication that they are open to a conversation about spiritual matters, ask "what do they feel like the Lord is trying to communicate to you and your family?" You will be amazed how this inquiry will tell you exactly what to do or say next. Crisis builds intimacy among people real quickly, use it for the Lord but let Him guide you to the teachable moments

Paul was not against large assemblies. He was against cross cultural assemblies where minorities were not given the benefit of explanation of what was going or the use of many languages without an interpreter. Don't reduce church to people hanging out. Although churches without the spirit probably equate to that in reality. But biblical church is much more and accomplishes a whole lot more than fellowship. The Bible is the WORD of GOD, it is powerful, it reads me. I'm not so sure your quoting yourself, "THE BIBLE WITHOUT THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT IS USELESS" is the best choice of words, or exactly what you are trying to communicate. But I will return the favor with my quote and let you guess what I mean. I hope to see you in church tonight, we're hanging out in a Revelation study and afterward we are going to be involved in a mentoring program over a cup of coffee at a local restaurant. Tomorrow night a couple of us guys are going to a prison ministry opportunity.

I basically believe what 'His Ambassador' said. When the new testament speaks of church it is referring to a group of called out believers. I believe either an organized church or a good Bible study group would be sufficient, depending on what is available and what can spiritually feed us the best. My theory is that those who get the most out of organized church are those who make friends easily and love the socializing opportunities there. Please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong on that theory. Personally I attend an organized church on Sunday morning, but if I could find a great Bible study to attend instead I might change to that, or add that. Right and paul went as far as to speak against the confusion of a large assembly....saying.....why is it that each time you assemble everyone is speaking in hyms and toungues and every1 has a prophecy or a new saying.....he said those things because the church was taking the route it has today......I think the term de-nomination says it all.....its just a title you have to have to be ligit with the government....the first real "churches" truly enjoyed ...real seperation of church and state. They were just hanging out and desireing each others company. While I agree that a "church" building gives a venue to accomplish this...I don't agree that it makes a person less spiritual to "not show up" sunday morning....sometimes you have to look past "biblical wording" (everyone keeps saying ""biblical) ...the bible is just a book with leters and numbers...it is dead without the spirit.....so before someone says ....what?!!! micen are you discounting the bible?!!!.....no read again...actually ..I'll write it again....in case you don't feel like scrolling back with your eyes right now.....THE BIBLE WITHOUT THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT IS USELESS. sorry bout the annoying caps....i wanted to make sure you dont misquote me tho. Paul was not against large assemblies. He was against cross cultural assemblies where minorities were not given the benefit of explanation of what was going or the use of many languages without an interpreter. Don't reduce church to people hanging out. Although churches without the spirit probably equate to that in reality. But biblical church is much more and accomplishes a whole lot more than fellowship. The Bible is the WORD of GOD, it is powerful, it reads me. I'm not so sure your quoting yourself, "THE BIBLE WITHOUT THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT IS USELESS" is the best choice of words, or exactly what you are trying to communicate. But I will return the favor with my quote and let you guess what I mean. I hope to see you in church tonight, we're hanging out in a Revelation study and afterward we are going to be involved in a mentoring program over a cup of coffee at a local restaurant. Tomorrow night a couple of us guys are going to a prison ministry opportunity.

Scripture verses that direct us to "gather together" are referring to fellowshipping with other Believers not endorsing becoming involved in a religious organization. The "Church" referred to in Acts is the Body of Believers not a religious organization. IMO the religious organization is responsible for deminishing the effectiveness of the Body to carry out the Great Commission. If the Body today was as effective as the Body shown in Acts (3,000 people added in one day) there would hardly be an unsaved person on the face of the Earth. But instead, the church (religious organization) has failed to teach the Body what it needs to know and instead has placed the emphasis on the religious organization and learning all it traditions, doctrine, rules, regulations and teaching it to pay homage to all its icons and heirarchy. Frankly, I don't care what the world thinks Christians should do. This is more than semantics...The authientic church is not a organization it is a organism. Perhaps you think you agree with that but I would argue you have not accepted that truth. A Christian is incomplete without the church assembly. Like an arm without the head. While you might be able to put an effective argument together that "not forsaking the assembly" is a fellowship issue, I would rather say show a NT verse outside the 4 gospels where the church is not the subject or at least the context of the address. IMO, most criticism about the church I hear resembles, the person that has failed at marriage personally commenting on the institution of marriage. I love the church, have been abused by the church, but stuck it out and chose to look at the model of the church protrayed in Scripture and I am going to endure. Learn how to forgive, reconcile, and lead in ministry to the body for the glory of Jesus. My faith aint about me, my church membership aint about me, its about service. Marriage aint always happy and neither is church life, but its the backbone of what God is doing. it is where he will bless and instruct and prepare us for ministry. That is how we love Him. At least that is what He told Peter.... Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish. This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead. So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter,

My dad has been a great influence in my life at a critical point of my life my upbringing. Cautiously I say this, in some ways I have surpassed his understanding and experiences. But, his endurance and his sincerity are still greatly admirable. He is very open with his affection for people. He has a very narrow vision for himself, but he has been faithful with what he has been able to grasp. The other great influence in my life was a pastor named Randy Hawkins who took the time to have private probing conversations with me. He took risk with me by letting me in on many of his private thoughts and struggles in light of grace. He entrusted me with an opportunity to teach Sunday School. He prayed with me, forgave me when I needed forgiving and help me to identify a calling on my life, and helped pursue it. He dissapointed me with some decisions he made later on in his ministry. But he had taught me to focus on Jesus and look at others with mercy because we are all projects. So it was easy to apply it to his situation, because I knew I would need the same grace at different points of my life. I still to this day 16 years later remember in detail many of our discussions and impromptu prayer. His involvement intervened in my running from the church to a hot pursuit of the church and its ministry.

I see no biblical record of such an event, and see no reason why that would be necessary. I don't think that was on the same night. Also, Christ is and was God...he has...access...to certain things that we do not. God doesn't mince words when it comes to talking to the dead: "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." - Deut. 18:10-11 NIV (emphasis mine) It was not on the same day as Jesus' torment and prayer on the Mount of Olives but it did occur about 8 days after Peter confesses Jesus to be the Christ. Luke 9:29-31 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lighning, Two men, Moses and Elijah appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfullment in Jerusalem. I question this person's thinking and soundness of mind. And that is what I will pray about. By the way Elijah is not dead and Moses (buried by God?)...The real test case for this speaking to the dead is found in 1 Samuel Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had lamented for him and buried him in Ramah, in his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the spiritists out of the land. Then the Philistines gathered together, and came and encamped at Shunem. So Saul gathered all Israel together, and they encamped at Gilboa. When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor." So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, "Please conduct a s

It is my personal belief that mentorship or in Biblical speak, discipleship is the weakest link in the way the church operates. It is the very thing the Great Commission requires of us, but the one area we are failing most miserably. While sharing the plan of salvation starts the journey, discipleship is the journey. Who has made the greatest impact in that area in your life. Who has taken the message to your heart and held you accountable? Who has done a good job demonstrating faith under pressure? Who has taught you how to study and pray? Of course, the questions get more personal as we contemplate it, who have you had an impact on? Who looks to you to demonstrate faith applied and the practice of discipline displayed? IMO this is the frontline in the cause of Christ.

Isn't funny how we can get all tied up in higher critical issues and miss the simple message? Even saved humanity has a tendency to be one big contradiction. Hello Maestroh...Are you going to Dallas Theological Seminary or Southwestern or some other school?

Is there any mention of physical correction? Is the rod Solomon was referring to used for striking?

John Rosemond, syndicated columnist and professing Christian, had this subject matter in his article today. Is spanking commanded, suggested, or is the Scripture silent? What is sparing not the rod of correction?

Humility is an accurate assessment and presentation of who I am. It is the absence of delusion, dishonesty, or hypocrisy. That proper view of yourself is the work of the Holy Spirit. The actions and conversation that flow from this revelation of who you are will lead observers to call you humble. The moment you say so,you cease to be humble. The only legitimate confidence that exist inside of humility is a confidence in the Holy Spirit and His revelation, direction, and discernment.

WOW...that definitely is something for us as a group to pray about...persevere...

Good thoughts...What do you think we need to do or say in the church to promote humility? Lead by example. It has to start at the top, but its practice is most effective when we "divide and concquer". Most people, as you have somewhat indicated, are'nt really aware of its neccesity, and I don't think it would be easy to nurture in the general context of a whole assembly. It would have to be talked about and practiced in small groups, where its easier to be be more sensitive to individuals, where it is easier to relax and be open to the Spirits nudges. Eventually it will grow into the general atmosphere of the congregation. I believe you are right...I think that is probably why the small group gathering never needs to disapear from what the church is doing....whether they call it Sunday School, accountability groups, home groups or whatever...humility is learned in small environments...I think you are right.

Good thoughts...What do you think we need to do or say in the church to promote humility?

Jackie, you are an amazing lady...you have learned humility. What impresses me about you is your willingness to give Christ your life story to touch others with the truth, even if that truth is costly to you. King David was that way and many of the psalm show that brutal honesty and willingness to truly testify...good stuff!

Tell your son, there is wisdom in that statement...If he coined that phrase he needs to publish it.

What or who is sacrificed on these occasions? I pastor a Southern Baptist Church....the denomination is supposedly the largest protestant denomination in the world...15 million +, we just don't know where 8 million are on any given Sunday.

Certainly a good post...as I said this is a very broad subject and you certainly addressed things related to the subject. The comments now reflect some of my thinking that led to the OP...In church life and even here on Worthy Boards there are some very talented and gifted people. There are some high IQ and very knowledgeable people...and as my mother would say, "and they know it!" But, who would they be if they didn't have that confidence. Yet, we are told that human pride is the enemy...I have had some pretty detailed discussions with people about Biblical interpretation and it seems that ego prevents productive conversation or even the admission that personal beliefs are suspect. I have had musicians and singers and public speakers who perform beautifully, but you have a hard time tolerating the ego that goes with it. I deal with people daily who are professing Christians who cannot admit they are wrong and thus their walk stagnates. While, my Baptist leaning will show through on the next comment. The majority of Christians visit the altar on the day of their salvation and never return. Tah, this is what I would like to see us unpack in this thread. I believe the Lord will inspire some good productive post that will minister and open up some closets of discovery.

I can hear the sounds of Birds in the distance, of crickets, frogs, and the flutter of butterflies....This is a Christian (Christ-like) forum and of course they were all there....earlier today...on Sunday....at one of the 3 convienent times they hold service...at church....on the front row.....near the altar....hungry and hanging on every word... Attendance records are being faxed to the main office as we speak folks...

Perhaps we give lips service alone to the issue of humbleness in the church. My question is multifaceted and probably to broad to be covered exhaustively but I think it is worthwhile to converse about and see what we can discover from one another and from the Holy Spirit. What role does humbleness play in our sanctification? Our ability to understand doctrine? Operate in our giftedness? Discussing Biblical truths in which there are differences across the spectrum of Christianity? doing church? participating in apologetics (defending the faith)? reconciliation?...etc... What is the difference between confidence and pride, is it vague or pretty easy to define? What happens when a person displays arrogance or is self-defensive or braggadocious under the disguise of Christian service?

Good interpretation, good insight, and the gospel truth...Clear and simple as a parable always is..

[We know that before the beast is allowed to wage war against the saints and overcome them, they MUST be sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is these whom will be "resurrected or raptured". At that moment all of God's saints and "changed to be like Christ." So that all who REIGN with Christ during the millineal period are in their new bodies, but the rest of the world that escaped God's wrath upon the earth remain in the flesh. It will be them and their progeny who repopulate the earth. We will not be because we shall be like the angels neither marring nor given in marriage. I am not taking issue with the above paragraph but I am looking for proof of what you have concluded...what Scripturally brought you to this conclusion...I guess I am saying fill in some of the gaps with supportive Scripture. The Millenial reign as you know is probably the highest area of disagreement in Eschatology. I am very interested in what yu have to say... P.S. The use of the term logic has some bad connotations to it. The Lord tells us "come let us REASON together". Paul often REASONED with various people and I do not see him using "logic". Most all my posts are replete with scripture or scriptural references, so that the Word of God goes out and NOT just my "logic". The use of the word "logic" was loose wording...writing from the flow of consciousness you will occassionally not use the best word...Forgive me for being a little bit snooty here, but before you write a post script like this make sure it is tagging a dialog that has used Scripture abundantly and not at all...it just not replete without it...Ernie Don't get mad now...I'm smiling

Jackie...you have been very transparent in this post and it has been a real ministry to me...The two boys are my sons and I will take your advice to heart.

I run into a lot of people who have the misfortune of not having a good role model for a mom. In fact, they may have been abandoned or disowned by their mother. How should someone survive this holiday or work through their emotions with this kind of pain. I know two Christian teenage boys whose mother abandoned them last year to pursue an adulterous affair out of state. How would you minister to them...ignore the holiday or recall a better time when mom sacrificed for their well being?