Isaiah-smiles

I think if you look into Ezek.38 and 39, you'll find different players/nations involved that is not involved w/ Psalms 83. Psalms 83 depicts the people that are actually touching Israel's borders today and afterwards the enemy is farther out that surrounds Israel (like Russia, Persia/Iran, Turkey, etc,.) and then finally the whole world is involved in the Battle of Armageddon. It's like a small circle around Israel and gets bigger after each phase.

No slight taken. I guess I should have been a little more specific. I have been saved for 30 years, but although I had much interest in prophecy, there had been gaps in my study of prophecy w/ other interests that I had delved into such as; the study of comparative religions, Oneness theology, Calvinism, the occult, etc,. But I always came back to the study of prophecy. Actually, I became interested in Biblical Prophecy before I was born again. Back in the 70's I had a faithful grandmother who constantly prayed for all her grandkid's Salvation. During this time (mid 70's) my grandmother purchased 9 books of the recent release of Hal Lindsey's book; "The Late Great Planet Earth" and she gave them to each of her kids to whom my mom was one. I read that book from cover to cover maybe 3-4 times just to let everything sink in. I was a teen fascinated w/ the end-times although I did not know the Lord at the time. I guess that was really the beginning of my interests in prophecy. I did know for most of the years about the Ezekiel 38 war (w/ Gog of Magog) and the Battle of Armageddon. BUT what I had never seen before was the Psalms 83 war which will take place before the other two aforementioned battles. And it makes absolute sense. I would encourage you to watch the video I put up. I think Bill Salus does a wonderful job of explaining in more vivid details for the up-coming battles/wars that Israel will face in the near future. I hope I answered your question.

I have a really good friend who is a Christian or at least professes to be one, but who am I to judge whether he is or not. Here is where I need some advise. My wife and I were very good friends with a younger couple (my friend and his wife) in our Church. We use to do a lot together and hang out, etc,. The husband is a truck driver and while he was OTR he met someone and they began to have an affair (adultery). One day his wife went to the Dr. (for a female concern, not sure what), but that is when she discovered that she had a STD. She knew she was faithful, so there was only one other conclusion. Long story short, after going to counseling, she still ended up divorcing him. Fast forward to 2 years later. He has met someone and they are getting married in June 2014 and they have sent an invitation to my wife and I. Would it be ethical/right to go to this wedding? We are still good friends w/ his wife and she still goes to our Church. Thanx in advance for any advise you can give (especially Biblical advise).

There are multiple scripture verses that declare God's Judgement on those nations that divide God's land. I have read an interesting book by Bill Koenig, titled; "Eye to Eye". It documents go back to the Carter administration and the Camp David Accords and follows each subsequential President. It reveals that each time our President(s) tried to broker Israel in giving up "land for peace", something catastrophic happened in the United States within 24 hours of the action by our President. It is truly amazing and I do not believe it is just coincidental. There is also an interesting video on YouTube where this guy Bill Salus explains (3) distinct and separate (near future) wars that will befall Israel: The Psalms 83 war, The Ezekiel 38 war and finally the Battle of Armageddon war. If you would like to check it out (it's about an hour long), here is the link to it: *** Please, start a thread for the video in the video forum and place a link here. *** God Bless and continue to pray for the peace of Israel, for there will be a day when they will experience real peace when the Prince of Peace comes. (Joel 3:1-2) "For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment on them there for my people, and for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations. They have divided my land,...

Just as Adam, who knew what the Word of God commanded concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, should have protected his wife from temptation, shouldn't we as leaders and protectors of our wives and families do the same? I realize that you do not have the foreknowledge of what "might" have happened...BUT, you can protect her now. KNOWING that her "weakness" is this "longtime" friend, do not expose her to this friend no matter what the circumstance is. You do not take an alcoholic to be around a bottle of wine do ya? Then avoid doing anything that may expose your wife to her apparent weakness including NOT inviting her friend to your house.

God's plan or man's wicked acts?? God's Providence/Sovereignty or man's responsibility for his own wicked acts??.....BOTH!!! (Genesis 45) 4 Joseph said to his brothers, "Come near to me, please." They came near. "He said, I am Joseph, your brother, whom you sold into Egypt. 5 Now don't be grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. 6 For these two years the famine has been in the land, and there are yet five years, in which there will be neither plowing nor harvest. 7 God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth, and to save you alive by a great deliverance. 8 So now it wasn't you who sent me here, but God, and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, lord of all his house, and ruler over all the land of Egypt. 9 Hurry, and go up to my father, and tell him, 'This is what your son Joseph says, "God has made me lord of all Egypt. Come down to me. Don't wait. (Acts 2) 22 "Men of Israel, hear these words! Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God to you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as you yourselves know, 23 him, being delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and killed;

Please, as per the ToS add the source link when you cut and paste. My apologies....here is the link. I find it to be a really good source for a variety of topics. http://www.gotquestions.org/abomination-desolation.html

1st the Psalms 83 war will occur, 2nd the Ezekiel 38 war will occur, and finally the Armageddon war will occur. Check out the video: (YouTube link removed - please post videos in video forum)

Question: "What is apostasy and how can I recognize it?" Answer:Apostasy, from the Greek wordapostasia, means “a defiance of an established system or authority; a rebellion; an abandonment or breach of faith.” In the first-century world, apostasy was a technical term for political revolt or defection. And just like in the first century, apostasy threatens the Body of Christ today. The Bible warns about people like Arius (c. A.D. 250 - 336), a Christian priest from Alexandria, Egypt, who was trained at Antioch in the early fourth century. About A.D. 318, Arius accused Bishop Alexander of Alexandria of subscribing to Sabellianism, a false teaching which asserted that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were merely roles or modes assumed by God at various times. Arius was determined to emphasize the oneness of God; however, he went too far in his teaching of God’s nature. Arius denied the Trinity and introduced what appeared on the surface to be an inconsequential difference between the Father and Son. Arius argued that Jesus was nothomoousios(of the same essence) as the Father, but was ratherhomoiousios(of similar essence). Only one Greek letter – the iota (i) – separated the two. Arius described his position in this manner: “The Father existed before the Son. There was a time when the Son did not exist. Therefore, the Son was created by the Father. Therefore, although the Son was the highest of all creatures, he was not of the essence of God.” Arius was very clever and did his best to get the people on his side, even going so far as to compose little songs that taught his theology, which he tried to teach to everyone who would listen. His winsome nature and revered position as a preacher and one who lived in denial of himself contributed also to his cause. With respect to apostasy, it is critical that all Christians understand two important things: (1) how to recognize apostasy and apostate teachers, and (2) why apostate teaching is so deadly. The Forms of Apostasy To fully identify and combat apostasy, it is important that Christians understand its various forms and the traits that characterize its doctrines and teachers. As to the forms of apostasy, there are two main types: (1) a falling away from key and true doctrines of the Bible into heretical teachings that proclaim to be “the real” Christian doctrine, and (2) a complete renunciation of the Christian faith, which results in a full abandonment of Christ. Arius represents the first form of apostasy—a denial of key Christian truths (such as the divinity of Christ) that begins a downhill slide into a full departure from the faith, which is the second form of apostasy. It is important to understand that the second form almost always begins with the first. A heretical belief becomes a heretical teaching that splinters and grows until it pollutes all aspects of a person’s faith, and then the end goal of Satan is accomplished, which is a complete falling away from Christianity. A recent example of this process is a 2010 study done by prominent atheist Daniel Dennett and Linda LaScola called “Preachers Who Are Not Believers.” Dennett and LaScola’s work chronicles five different preachers who over time were presented with and accepted heretical teachings about Christianity and now have completely fallen away from the faith and are either pantheists or clandestine atheists. One of the most disturbing truths highlighted in the study is that these preachers maintain their position as pastors of Christian churches with their congregations being unaware of their leader’s true spiritual state. The dangers of apostasy were warned about in the book of Jude, which serves as a handbook for understanding the characteristics of apostates like those chronicled in Dennett and LaScola’s study. Jude’s words are every bit as relevant for us today as they were when he penned them in the first century, so it is important we carefully read and understand them. The Characteristics of Apostasy and Apostates Jude was the half-brother of Jesus and a leader in the early church. In his New Testament letter, he outlines how to recognize apostasy and strongly urges those in the body of Christ to contend earnestly for the faith (vs. 3). The Greek word translated “contend earnestly” is a compound verb from which we get the word “agonize.” It is in the present infinitive form, which means that the struggle will be continuous. In other words, Jude is telling us that there will be a constant fight against false teaching and that Christians should take it so seriously that we “agonize” over the fight in which we are engaged. Moreover, Jude makes it clear that every Christian is called to this fight, not just church leaders, so it is critical that all believers sharpen their discernment skills so that they can recognize and prevent apostasy in their midst. After urging his readers to contend earnestly for the faith, Jude highlights the reason: “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ” (vs. 4). In this one verse, Jude provides Christians with three traits of apostasy and apostate teachers. First, Jude says that apostasy can be subtle. Jude uses the word “crept” (found in no other book of the Bible) to describe the apostate’s entry into the church. In extra-biblical Greek, the term describes the cunning craftiness of a lawyer who, through clever argumentation, infiltrates the minds of courtroom officials and corrupts their thinking. The word literally means “slip in sideways; come in stealthily; sneak in; hard to detect.” In other words, Jude says it is rare that apostasy begins in an overt and easily detectable manner. Instead, it looks a lot like Arius’ preaching in which, in a nonchalant manner, only a single letter differentiates his doctrine from the real teaching of the Christian faith. Describing this aspect of apostasy and its underlying danger, A. W. Tozer wrote, "So skilled is error at imitating truth, that the two are constantly being mistaken for each another. It takes a sharp eye these days to know which brother is Cain and which is Abel." The apostle Paul also speaks to the outwardly pleasing behavior of apostates and their teaching when he says, "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:13-14). In other words, do not look for apostates to appear bad on the outside or speak dramatic words of heresy at the outset of their teaching. Rather than denying truth outright, apostates will twist it to fit their own agenda, but as pastor R. C. Lensky has noted, “The worst forms of wickedness consist in perversions of the truth.” Second, Jude describes the apostates as “ungodly” and as those who use God’s grace as a license to commit unrighteous acts. Beginning with “ungodly,” Jude describes eighteen unflattering traits of apostates so his readers can more easily identify them. Jude says the apostates are ungodly (vs. 4), morally perverted (vs. 4), denying Christ (vs. 4), ones who defile the flesh (vs. 8), rebellious (vs. 8), people who revile angels (vs. 8), who are ignorant about God (vs. 8), those who proclaim false visions (vs. 10), self-destructive (vs. 10), grumblers (vs. 16), fault finders (vs. 16), self-satisfying (vs. 16), people who use arrogant words and false flattery (vs. 16), mockers of God (vs. 18), those who cause divisions (vs. 19), worldly minded (vs. 19), and finally (and not surprisingly), devoid of the Spirit/unsaved (vs. 19). Third, Jude says apostates “deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” How do apostates do this? Paul tells us in his letter to Titus, "To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed" (Titus 1:15-16, emphasis added). Through their unrighteous behavior, the apostates show their true selves. Unlike an apostate, a true believer is someone who has been delivered from sin to righteousness in Christ. With Paul, they ask the apostates who promote licentious behavior, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” (Romans 6:1-2) But the apostates’ false teaching also shows their true nature. Peter says, “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves” (2 Peter 2:1). Another aspect of true believers is that they have been delivered out of spiritual darkness into light (Ephesians 5:8) and therefore will not deny core truths of Scripture like Arius did with the divinity of Jesus. Ultimately, the sign of an apostate is that he eventually falls away and departs from the truth of God’s Word and His righteousness. The apostle John signifies this is a mark of a false believer: “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us” (1 John 2:19). Ideas Have Consequences That God takes apostasy and false teaching seriously is evidenced by the fact that every New Testament book except Philemon contains warnings about false teaching. Why is this? Simply because ideas have consequences. Right thinking and its fruit produces goodness, whereas wrong thinking and its accompanying action results in undesired penalties. As an example, the Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s were the product of the nihilistic worldview of Jean Paul Sartre and his teaching. The Khmer Rouge’s leader Pol Pot lived out Sartre’s philosophy toward the people in a clear and frightening way, which was articulated in this manner: “To keep you is no benefit. To destroy you is no loss.” It should be remembered that Satan did not come to the first couple in the Garden with an external armament or supernatural weapon; instead, he came to them with an idea. And it was that idea that condemned them and the rest of humankind, with the only remedy being the sacrificial death of God’s Son. The great tragedy is, whether knowingly or unknowingly, the apostate teacher dooms his unsuspecting followers. One of the most frightening verses in all of Scripture comes from the lips of Jesus. Speaking to His disciples about the religious leaders of His day, He said, “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man,both will fall into a pit” (Matthew 15:14, emphasis added). This verse is alarming because Jesus affirms that it is not only the false teachers that go to destruction, but their disciples also follow them. Christian philosopher Soren Kierkegaard put it this way: “For it has never yet been known to fail that one fool, when he goes astray, takes several others with him.” Conclusion In A.D. 325, the Council of Nicea convened primarily to take up the issue of Arius and his teaching. Much to Arius’s dismay, the end result was his excommunication and a statement in the Nicene Creed that affirmed Christ’s divinity: “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father.” Arius may have died centuries ago, but his spiritual children are still with us to this day in the form of cults like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and others who deny Christ’s true essence and person. Sadly, until Christ returns and every last spiritual enemy has been removed, tares such as these will be present among the wheat (Matthew 13:24-30). In fact, Scripture says apostasy will only get worse as Christ’s return approaches. “At that time [the latter days] many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another” (Matthew 24:10). Paul echoes Jesus in his inspired writings as well. The apostle told the Thessalonians that a great falling away would precede Christ’s second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and that the end times would be characterized by tribulation and hollow religious charlatans: “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be . . . holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; avoid such men as these” (2 Timothy 3:1-2,5). It is critical, now more than ever, that every believer pray for discernment, combat apostasy, and contend earnestly for the faith that has once and for all been delivered to the saints. Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy.html#ixzz2luZ5nyJr

Esau was subjected to Jacob/Israel through their seed, as mentioned by larryt.And also in the near future when during the millennium kingdom the WHOLE world will be subject to Israel because of the same covenant. The way I see the sovereignty of God vs. the free will of man is this; when Adam partook of the fruit they became aware of good and evil. In other words, they knew good and evil. When it comes down to the free will of man, both, believer and non-believer knows good from evil, no matter of what state they are in. Non-believers have the same choices to make in their lives as believers-to do good or evil. Thereby good and evil becomes their "works or deeds". These works or deeds have nothing to do with being saved, but rather, it is the measuring rod that God uses to determine rewards (for the believer) or degree of punishment (for the non-believer) via "The Judgment Seat of Christ" or "The Great White Throne Judgment". Now as to God's sovereignty, God chooses. The way I understand it, God does choose through his undeserved Grace and Mercy He chooses the person in who's life He will be actively involved with in a personal way. God convicts the world of it's sin via The Holy Spirit, but the Father is the one who woos the person He has chosen to Calvary. He does not woo or draw everyone to His Son. That is why scripture says that "For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matt. 22:14) This is why we should still witness to others. As we are commissioned to do, is to make the call to the world while The Holy Spirit does the convicting, but ultimately, it is God who does the choosing. That is why when we witness to others about Christ and what He has done on our behalf, most of the time He is rejected but there are a few who responds favorably to the Gospel on the account that they are the Elect according to God's will. We our selves has no idea of who the elect are so that is why we should witness often. And no matter where on God's green earth the elect are found, God will make sure that they hear the call. Remember, whether you are believer or non-believer all are responsible for the choices they make in their lives whether it is good or evil. Let me give an example; when a person lies to someone else, is the liar aware that they are telling a lie? Of course they are aware and they know it is evil. But by their own will they chose to tell a lie. My next question is; does only non-believers lie? Of course not! believers have the same potential to lie as well, thereby they make that choice too and are responsible for it and will suffer loss of reward in the end for it, but they will be saved as though by fire.

Sorry for being out of the loop for awhile, but while I was scanning the subject being discussed I was curious as to why Romans 9 was not in the discussion? Of course, Paul is talking about his people after the flesh (his kinsmen), who are lost through their rejection of the gospel. And goes to explain; "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethhttp://www.worthychristianforums.com/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif' alt=':rolleyes:'> 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Now did I read this right? God hated Esau? Or is somebody going to try and explain it away? What about when Paul writes the same question that would ordinarily be on someone's mind after hearing this hard speech. What is Paul's reaction? "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,(did you read that? God's purpose or reason for hardening Pharoah's heart was to show His Power) that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (here is another question that you might ask concerning this subject)19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (and the answer?)20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" What is election? And who does the choosing? Throughout the New Testament we sometimes hear the word adoption. When a Husband and wife chooses to adopt, who's choice is it? Jesus even compared the spiritual birth with the physical birth or to be born again is a term you use pertaining to salvation. When you born physically, was it your decision? You have to have faith to receive the gospel, but who gives that faith? There is nothing that you have that was not given to you. Jesus answered them, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." It was no mistake on Jesus part when he even chose Judas, the purpose for choosing Judas was so that the Lord would be betrayed and fulfill the redemptive plan that He and the Father had before the foundation of the world. In (matt. 20:24) Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: "21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (if Jesus, having the foreknowledge that they would have repented, then why didn't He as God, have miracles and mighty works done in Tyre and Sidon so that they would have repented instead of eventually being judged of God. Same thing is said of Sodom.)22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee." In a nut shell; 1. God chose you before the foundation of the world, before you had any choice. He knew you according to His foreknowledge. There will be some who will say LORD, LORD, but He will say "I never knew you" And foreknowledge is not just a mere ability to see in the future like some psyic, but rather, He is involved in every fascet of your life. Remember the parable of Jesus about how the shephard left the 99 and went after the one. 2. He called you. His Holy Spirit is the one who comes to you and convicts you of sin so that the Father may Draw you to His Son who paid the penalty. 3. He gave you Faith. Through His calling and conviction He gave you faith to beleive in the gospel of what Christ has done for you. 4. He gave you His Spirit. Not only as a downpayment of whats to come, but He gave/sent the Holy Spirit in order for you to get to know the Father and Son in a more intimate fellowship.

You are absolutely right Traveler. This has strayed quite away from the original thread. I think enough has been said on the rapture.

RAPTURE OF THE BRIDE There are many different opinions regarding biblical eschatology (end-time events). This post deals with the "rapture"; a supernatural taking-up of Christians to be with the Lord before His wrath is poured out. This post is to offer some information that may support a rapture before the tribulation period. As we all know, God uses symbolism very often in scripture to convey a spiritual meaning. We also know that God calls the church "The Bride" or "Bride of Christ" (Ephesians 5:22-33, 2 Corinthians 11:2-3, Jeremiah 2:1, Hosea 2:16). It is in this context that we look at the Jewish wedding customs of that day and analyze any likenesses with the church bride. ...In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself, that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3) ANALOGY OF THE JEWISH WEDDING CUSTOM The first major step in a Jewish marriage was Betrothal. This established the marriage covenant. Jesus established an eternal covenant through His blood. His Holy Spirit is the "ring" (if you will) - sealing the bride with a guarantee that He will return for her. (Hebrews 13:20, Luke 22:20, *Ephesians 1:13) The Jewish bridegroom took the initiative in marriage by leaving his father's house and traveling to the home of the prospective bride. So Jesus left His Father's house in heaven and traveled to the earth; the home of His prospective Church (bride) [John 6:32-33;51]. Jesus came to earth to obtain the church (bride) through the establishment of a covenant. On the same night Jesus made His promise in John 14, He instituted communion. In this communion, he passed the cup of wine to the disciples saying: "This cup is the new covenant in My blood." (1 Corinthians 1:25) At the home of the prospective bride, the Jewish bridegroom would negotiate with her father to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride. Jesus paid a price to purchase the church (bride). The price He paid was His life blood. (Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20) Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was established, and the young man and woman were regarded as husband and wife. From that moment on, the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified; set apart exclusively for her bridegroom. So the church is said to be sanctified and set apart exclusively for Christ. (Ephesians 5:25-27, 1 Corinthians1:2; 6:11, Hebrews 10:10;13:12) As a symbol of the covenant relationship, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced. The cup of communion serves as the symbol of the covenant through which Christ has obtained the church (bride). (1 Corinthians11:25) After the marriage covenant was established, the groom would leave the bride's home and return to his father's house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of 12 months. Just as the Jewish groom left the home of his bride and returned to his father's house, so Jesus left the earth, the home of the church (bride) and returned to His Father's house in heaven after He'd established the new covenant and risen from the dead. The church is currently living in this period of separation awaiting Christ's return. (John 6:62; 20:17) During this period of separation between the Jewish bride and groom, the bride would use this time to gather her trousseau and prepare for her married life. The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father's house where he would bring his bride. Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom preparing living accommodations for his bride in his father's house, Christ as been preparing living accommodations for the church in His Father's house in heaven. (John 14:2) At the end of the period of separation, the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. So Christ will come to take the church (bride) to live with Him at the end of the separation period. (John 14:3) The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the Jewish groom's father's house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride. Just as the taking of the Jewish bride was accomplished by a procession of the groom and male escorts from the father's house to the bride's house, so the taking of the church (bride) will be accomplished by a procession of Christ and an angelic escort from heaven to the home of the church. (1 Thessalonians 4:16) Although the Jewish bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming. So the church (bride) does not know the exact time of Christ's coming for her. (Matthew 25:1-13, Revelation 3:2-3;11) As a result of the bride not knowing the exact time the groom would come for her, the groom's arrival would be preceded by a shout. This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom. So Christ's arrival will be preceded by a shout. (1 Thessalonians 4:16) After the Jewish groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride's home to the groom's father's house. Similarly, the church (bride) will return with Christ to His Father's house in heaven after she is taken from the earth to meet Him. (1 Thessalonians 4:17, John 14:2-3) Upon arrival there, the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already. In the same manner, Christ and the church (bride) will find the soul of Old Testament saints assembled in heaven when they arrive. These souls serve as the wedding guests. (Rev. 19:7,8) Shortly after arrival, the bride (remaining veiled) and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah) While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time ~ consummating the marriage that was covenanted earlier. Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom and bride entering into physical union after their arrival and thereby consummating the marriage that was covenanted earlier, Christ and the church (bride) will experience spiritual union after their arrival in heaven; thereby consummating their relationship covenanted earlier. After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber. These people would in turn pass this news on to the wedding guests. Upon hearing this good news, the wedding guests would begin the feast and make merry for the next 7 days. During those 7 days of the wedding festivities (sometimes called "the 7 days of huppah"), the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber. In correspondence with the Jewish bride remaining hidden in the bridal chamber for 7 days after arrival at the groom's father's house, the church (bride) will remain hidden for a period of 7 years after arrival in heaven. While the 7 year tribulation period is taking place on earth, the church will be hidden from the sight of those living on the earth. At the conclusion of the 7 days, the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was. So Christ will bring the Church (Bride) out of heaven in His second coming at the conclusion of the 7-year tribulation period in full view of all who are alive, so that all can see who the true Church (Bride) is. (Colossians 3:4, Jude 14) Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain. (Isaiah 26:20)

WHaaat??!! ''Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." (Isaiah 14:1-5) This is the Lord coming back to protect Israel. Take note that the "Saints" are with him, not the ones being rescued!! "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thes. 4:15-17) Here is the church to be raptured and meet Christ IN THE AIR, in the clouds, not on the mount of Olives! So, between these scriptures, are you trying to tell me that the church is going to meet the Lord in the air and then all of a sudden....BAM! we're on the mount of olives rescueing Israel??!! Your Eschatology is all messed up! Also, Paul instructs the CHURCH to comfort one another with these words. How are we (the church) are suppose to find comfort in these words if we're to face the Tribulation!!?? Also, explain to me on what the "Abomination of Desolation" is suppose to be?? It has all to do with the anti-christ sitting in the Temple (which will be on the Temple mount in Jerusalem) declaring that he is God. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (the holy of holies), (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea (the Jews/ Israel) flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matt. 24:15-21) This is the "abomination of desolation", which will occur during the Great Tribulation! "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Daniel's people, not the church) and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem (Nehemiah/Ezra) unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks (or actually 69 weeks/counting the 7 weeks before) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself (He is cut off for our sake/He dies in our place): and the people of the prince (the anti-christ) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (the Romans are the ones who destroyed the City and Sancturary 1); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (The missing 70th week/The Tribulation): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (refer to; 2 Thes.2:4) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:24-27) Lets read more about this abomination of desolation; "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (in the clouds/in the air), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (an apostasy from the faith in the gospel 2), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth3, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:3 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish (this is the unbelieving world); because they received not the love of the truth, (because they received not the gospel that they might be saved 2) that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion (it is the unbelieving world that receives the delusion), that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thes. 2:1-12) One question Celtic, are you one of the following? Jehovah witness, Mormon or Seventh day Aventist? I just want to know which false doctrine I am dealing with? 1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus 2 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Cor.15:1-4) 3 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses (the saints/the church/the bride of Christ), clothed in fine linen, white and clean (the church/ the Bride of Christ/ remember the marriage feast earlier?). 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Rev.19:11-20)

Continuing.... How Did the Church Decide the Demise of Israel? The New Testament Church was very much involved with the vicissitudes of Israel. Jesus is an Israeli, as were all the apostles, and the concerns of Israel, spiritually and politically, were very much a part of their lives. The greatest struggles the early Church had were over the relationship between Israel and the Church, law and grace, and the fellowship between Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ (Galatians). Many of the Jewish believers were not comfortable with the Gentile believers at first; and as time went on and Gentiles began to predominate numerically, the attitudes were reversed. Galatians shows how the Jewish party tried to impose the Mosaic Law on Gentile Christians, and Romans shows how the Gentile party began to