Neopatriarch

I think I have a better question. How can God in his perfect righteousness and goodness not send us, wretched sinners that we are, to the eternal torment of hell we so justly deserve?

There is no need to bring in the Edomites here. In Romans 9:13 Paul is using Esau, the individual man, as an example how God predestines people to hell. In context, part of Paul's point is that the Jews as a nation are not all elect. You must be a true Jew to be one of God's elect.

We take the verse over the saying.

Hello all, Has anyone here ever decided to change churches? Maybe because your doctrine changed or because the church you were in was dead or some other reason? How did you go about it? Did you have to convince unwilling family members? -Neopatriarch

I agree with Butero as well. The tax system needs to be revamped. I seriously doubt it falls within the proper function of government to subsidize (or penalize) marriage through taxes. Marriage is good and I want to promote it, but the purpose of taxes is to raise revenue for the government. If the chief purpose of civil unions is to gain the marriage subsidy, then I would have to disagree with civil unions just on the grounds that the marriage subsidy is wrong. -Neopatriarch

Good point. Perhaps I've just been unclear on how to define a 'civil union'. Vermont Act 91, 2000 Session says,

I didn't know it was limited to only gay couples. It seems you could have a civil union apart from any considerations of sex. At least, I could see that being argued for by some. -Neopatriarch

Hello list, The thread on homosexual friends has sparked me to ask what everyone thinks about civil unions. I think most Christians will recognize that same-sex marriage and homosexuality are morally wrong. This much is a no-brainer. But what about civil unions? Some friends of mine have said they would be willing to get civil unions just for economic reasons, forget about homosexuality and same-sex marriage. Are civil unions okay? Also, although we recognize that homosexuality is immoral, should there be a law against it since some people here say we are no longer under the law? Are far as I can tell, there is no civil legislation against homosexuality in the NT. In the OT we have Lev 18:22, but, if we are no longer under the law, the state would have no obligation to enforce it. So why not civil unions? -Neopatriarch

I had a friend that was gay when I was in high school (more of an acquaintance really). He would come to school wearing skirts until the principal made him change. When he asked me for a hug I was very reluctant but I finally conceded and made sure that my end of it was as sterile as I could make it. I think he was trying to recruit me. I was not comfortable with that. After that I didn't know any gay people until after I left the military and a short time in college out in CA. Then I met a lesbian at a job I worked at. Actually, she was an FtM transsexual. She started taking androgel (male hormones) and got a mastectomy. It was really weird. Like male puberty her voice started changing and her fat reserves moved from her but to her stomach. Then she started getting some peach fuzz on her face. I don't think anyone at her new job knows that she is female. At my current job, a guy I work with has committed homosexual acts but does not consider himself a homosexual. He told me he is about to become a confirmed Christian at his church, which is very liberal and open to homosexuality. His church performs same sex marriages. I'm wondering, should I shun him after he is confirmed? Also, what does the bible say about civil unions? -Neopatriarch

True. But my point is that, since marriage is the norm, I would expect those who decide to remain unmarried to have reasons for not getting married. If the issue is whether or not some individual should get married or not, the fact that marriage is the norm suggests to me that the burden of proof lies with the one who is deciding not to. That's all. One reason this issue concerns me is that much of our culture glorifies singleness. Look at Seinfeld for example. It seems that marriage is too much of an infringement on personal autonomy to be worth it. This is sad. ladygirl21 broached the topic. So I assumed she was interested in discussing it. In a spiritual sense Neo. That is the sense in which I was speaking. I was unmarried until I was 37. The idea that I as an individual was married to Christ seemed a little gay to me. I love Christ, but not that way. I guess I'm not clear on how this resolves my question. Of course, I'll accept scripture whatever it says, but I would also like to understand it. Could you interpret this for me? -Neopatriarch

Marriage is the norm in God's design (Gen 2:24). Why wouldn't you want it? Individuals are not married to Christ. Christ isn't a polygamist. It is the collective body of the church that is married to Christ. Unless you're burning with passion. (1 Cor. 7:9) What of married Christians? Do they not care as much for God as unmarried Christians? Perhaps we married folks are just not as spiritual unmarried. -Neopatriarch

Ah yes . . . Deborah . . . the poster child of the egalitarian movement. Sometimes it seems like the entire case for women pastors rests upon this woman. It's sad really. This link contains a pretty good discussion of Deborah: http://www.visionforumministries.org/issue...pport_a_wo.aspx Also notice that Judges 4:4 does not actually call Deborah a 'judge'. It says 'she judged Israel'. Further, it does not appear that people were compelled to come before her as you would expect in the judicial system, but rather 'the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment.' It was voluntary. No doubt she had some expertise and she was a prophetess, but it seems unlikely that she had any governing authority. She was probably someone to whom people went for conflict resolution or guidance counseling. Her judgments were not legally binding. -Neopatriarch