Larry 2

On the throne in heaven set for Him in Rev 4:2. Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb . . Thanks for your time, and I'm bailing on this thread. First of all, I have great trouble finding answers to my questions, and then I don't receive notifications of replies on this forum, making it hard to just find the thread replies. E.g., I have yet to find anyone on any forum to ever tell me who Jesus' angel is; it's very hard having a one sided discussion. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Good morning Brother Last Daze. That said, I'm assuming you believe that any present with Jesus in scripture prior to Rev 6:16-17 are not pre-trib saints? Who are the twenty-four elders & four living ones with Jesus in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6? How do they get there prior to the seals being opened? Aren't they part of the Church? The living ones are even associated with Jesus in the opening of the seals in Rev 6:1, Rev 6:3, Rev 6:4, & Rev 6:7. Are they priviledged, or just written in for effect? Who is Jesus' angel? Thanks.

I don’t know your background concerning the tribulation, and the coming millennium, but please allow me to suggest that when the Son of Man (Jesus) coming with great power and great glory will be in the time referred to as the Day of the Lord. The book of Matthew, chapter twenty-four is a real outline of the tribulation that will accompany that event. Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Now those present, and/or alive to observe all this, and that including seeing Jesus have taken that royal kingship, will also be privileged to see prophesy fulfilled Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (and only then). Who really knows the time frame of all this? I take it that you believe that any present when Israel repossessed Cannaan so to speak would be here when Jesus comes. I’ll quit here lest I drag this into something you’re not caring to hear.

Considering this portion of scripture concerning the Man Child, do you read that Zion being delivered of a Man Child below is Mary giving birth to Jesus? Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (This certainly didn't happen to Jesus when He was born; He pent 30+ years before ascending to His Father.) What of Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh (Who is he that overcomes?), and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I (Isn’t this Jesus speaking?) give power over the nations: Rev 2:27 And he (the overcomer?) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. You said that the scripture in Rev 12:1 was referring to Jesus, and inserted there as a parenthesis from that future viewpoint I read as of being the middle of the tribulation. I cannot see that at all; Rev 4:1 tells John the things he will see from that point will be the hereafter. If the viewpoint referred to Jesus, it would have been things which John had seen. Rev 1:19. Thanks for your time, and I reckon none of this matters other than have us prepare for Jesus’ coming.

Hi Babbler. I'm not really following your reasoning on this thread, and was hoping others would fill in the holes of my understanding prior to actually jumping in without knowing if man's recognition of a national event equated to true prophesy. You mention a generation since Jewish inhabitants returned to the land where their second temple was destroyed. I may be wrong here, but isn't there more to be had before they can say they really can say they're a nation? I personally see their absolute destination to be a nation in the future when God turns back to dealing with them as a nation after the tribulation. Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? Are we talking about two different things hers? Thanks.

Hi dear brother, and thanks for your reply. I'll attempt to bring forth another group that was caught up to the third heaven when Jesus rose from the grave, and that was those of Abraham's bosom (paradise), but to my understanding they were not a part of the Church., and were of Israel. The time now that John was shown had to be the things which are up to the time of the rapture. To my understanding, John was shown none of this prior to the time He was caught away in spirit to the Lord's day, and even that was somewhere around 90 AD or so. Something to consider is the fact that Revelation Chapters Two & Three cover the entire judgment of the Church, or there would be no provision of those remaining alive ant Jesus' coming in the air to the church in Philadelphia that had patiently endured in the word to be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world (1st 3 1/2 years of seven years of Dan 9:27). Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Hi Brother Dennis1209, I agree that the twenty-four elders are of the Church, but a special portion of it. In every part of the resurrection there will be an order following the example of 1 Thes 4:16-17. (The dead in Christ & those alive at Jesus' appearing) 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (To me these are the 24 elders represented by the church in Smyrna that remained faithful unto death - Rev 2:10) 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (These to me are those alive at Jesus' appearing in the air, the four living ones that are those of the church in Philadelphia kept from the temptation to come upon all the air told us in Rev 3:10) You mentioned them being priests, and a very special priestly laver (The glass sea) separates them from others of the Church. Their proximity is round bout Jesus' throne (Rev 4:4), & in the midst of the throne (Rev 4:6). Compare them to those John see appear before the throne of the Great multitude of Rev 7:14-15. Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. My thoughts.

I have no idea how you came up with Michael as being the Man Child born of the wonder woman of Rev 12:1. I'm supposing you've bought into the idea of the Lord's Day being Sunday instead the beginning future Day of the Lord that I say John was caught forward to, and that to record what is to occur from that viewpoint, write of them, and send them unto the seven churches located in Asia. Thanks.

Hi Diaste, rewards or lack of them constitute the place we have in reigning with Christ, and the Judgment seat of Christ we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three reveals parts of what can be expected. First remember that the seven portions of the Church is the One Body of Christ regardless their spiritual walk. Consider a couple warnings. Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. That temptation to come upon all the world of Rev 3:10 during the first three and one-half years of the seven year tribulation of Dan 9:27 is no picnic. Sardis in Rev 3:3. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Out of the seven conditions of the Church in which we might fit according to our walk, there are only two; Philadelphia, and Smyrna that are commended. What of the remainder? Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God (They finally get to heaven?), and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. When we come to Revelation Chapter twelve we see the entire body of believers represented by the wonder woman in Rev 12:1. Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. This is the last three and one-half years of the seven years of tribulation.

You haven't heard the half of it. Outside the Church, no salvation. 1. The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual. 2. The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved. 3. All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven. The above axiom is transcribed from my Catholic Dictionary by The Catholic Press in 1958 This doctrine has been changed so as to be better understood. I reckon that when I was in the Catholic Church, I didn’t understand what remaining united to the Pope meant.

Hi Brother Diaste, the answer is their spiritual walk, and a sea of glass (laver) separates them and others from their proximity to Jesus’ throne. Certain ones are caught up round bout, and in the midst of Jesus’ throne, reign with Him as kings and priests (Rev 5:10), while others of Rev 7:15 are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple. Do you see a difference? What we are kept from is the temptation to come upon all the world IF we endure in the word of God (Rev 3:10), and that’s the first 3 ½ years of the 7 years of tribulation. Those not ready enter into that very time of tribulation, and make their robes white in the blood of the Lamb according to Rev 7:14. Even during the woes poured out in Rev 9:4, believers; all with the seal of God in their foreheads are not allowed to be harmed. Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree(All these representing believers); but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Actually there is none of the Church that enters the second half of the tribulation on the earth when the man of sin will reign; that is the time of Jacob’s trouble, and great wrath poured out. My thoughts.

Dear Brother Fidei Defensor, all that are of the Church, the martyrs of Rev 20:4 and/or the righteous from all time will be raised to reign in some manner with Jesus in His Day. We believers will be raised in different groups, or caught up in we call being raptured unto our Savior before Jesus thousand years reign begins. Just an example are the 24 elders & 4 living ones of Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 2Ti 2:12 If we (believers) suffer (endure), we shall also reign with him: . . Blessings in Christ Jesus. :)

To me those 490 years of Daniel appear to be all blessings that have been throughly finished according to the scripture in Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. These seventy weeks were all promised blessings for Israel, even under Gentile rule. There is going to be another week of tribulation according to Dan 9:27, but as a dear brother in Christ Gene Hawkins wrote: "The week in Daniel 9:27 is another week, and because Israel rejected Him, this week is not going to be a week of blessing, but it is going to be a week of unparalleled judgment." This won't change the price of rice, but it gives us cause to think on these things. Thanks for your response.

Dear Brother in Christ Fidel Defensor, what those Pharisees were doing in my opinion were throwing the old tactic of law keeping at Jesus. True fasting was not denying self, but being a blessing to others, although much of the Church adapted those Jewish habits. If you read Matthew 6:16, you’ll see those did their fasting to be noticed. Let’s take a look at a true fast. Isa 58:4 . . . ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Hi Brother Revelation Man. Another suggestion that the 70th week is during the seven years of tribulation? Any scripture please? Thanks.

Hi Brother Last Daze, and I'll attempt to give you reason to believe the judgment that begins with us; the Church who believe. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God . . . In Revelation Chapters Two & Three, are there any warnings given to the seven portions of the One Body of Christ given? How about Thyatira told in Rev 2:22 that they will be cast into great tribulation, except they repent? And then those of Smyrna in Rev 2:10 told to be faithful unto death, and they will be given a crown of life. Another are those of Rev 3:10 Rev 3:10 that patiently endure, will be kept from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. To me these are just part of the promises, or things to be shown us of the Church to go through depending upon our spiritual walk. Thanks.

Hi Brother Diaste, just when do you suppose the 70th week of Daniel to be? Psst please use scripture if you have it. I am aware there are some doctrines suggesting that the 70th week is supposed to occur during the Day of the Lord. Thanks.

Okay and thanks.

This sort of requires that we ask what the word “Angel” is interpreted as doesn’t it? Strong’s G32 - Angel a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God. a pastor:—angel, messenger. Since you have strong ideas as to what angels are, and how they are dressed, who do you say that Jesus’ angel is? If you don’t know I’ll be glad to tell you in another reply. Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. Were these seven angels spiritual beings dressed in white? Is God working with the Church, or angels here in the Revealing of Jesus in the book of Revelation? Rev 19:8 And to her (Jesus’ bride) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Concerning the four living ones of Rev 4:6, are you aware that at the beginning of the opening of the seals in Rev 6:1, Rev 6:3, Rev 6:5. & Rev 6:7 one of the living ones is working with Jesus when they say to come? Is it possible these same living ones are the seven angels. Please allow me to ask one more question on this reply. If you were to find even one of our brethren in heaven with Jesus prior to the tribulation, would you be convinced that he had to be caught up to be there? Thanks in Jesus’ name.

I’m sorry if I’m sounding dense here, but the Day of the Lord has yet to come, Jesus has yet to open the seals, and the question of “Who is worthy to open the book” has not been asked at this point. When a throne is set in heaven for Jesus in Rev 4:2 all manner of His power is going to occur. Please note one other thing about that vision viewpoint shown to John, is that once John is caught up into heaven in spirit on the Lord’s Day (Rev 4:1), these things we’re discussing are hereafter from that point. This present age or time are the things which are, which John is told to write of in Rev 1:19. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Good morning Diaste. The context of Romans Chapter Eleven is of Israel future. Rom 11:7 Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (Gentiles & Jews in Christ?) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they (Israel) should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their (Israel’s fall) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy. When does this begin to change? Let’s finish with the Church and God’s elect first. Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem - Heb 12:22), and with Him (Jesus) an hundred forty and four thousand (redeemed from the earth - Rev 14:3 and they are there with the elders and living ones), having His (Jesus) Father's name written in their foreheads (Rev 7:3). Notice in Rev 14:4, These (144,000 all of Israel) are the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. When will all Israel be saved? When God turns from the Laodicean condition the Church ends up as in Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. During the millennium Israel will be the head of the nations, and there will be things occurring most have not thought of. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Israel is the key witness to the nations in that time if I have it right. We may even realize what is known as the Great Commission of Mt 28:19. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (not every creature we read of in Mar 16:15), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance. I hope I haven’t messed up your thinking. Bless you brother in Jesus’ name.

Hi Brother or Sister Last Daze. Would you consider the fact that Jesus had sit in His Father's throne judging the Church as He walked among the candlesticks for two thousand plus years before John was shown those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 round bout, and in the midst of Jesus' own throne (Rev 4:2) at a future time of the Lord's Day when He takes that all power He has been given? Jesus is God, and even had power to bring those of paradise and place them in heaven. Paul said that he was caught UP into the third heaven in 1 Cor 12:2, where Paradise had been relocated (1 Co4 12:4) from its former place in the lower parts of the earth where we read the story of Abraham's bosom. Thanks in Jesus' name. :)

Hi Diaste. There are basically three different groups shown to John in Revelation, and they are the Church, Israel that will be saved when , and unbelievers which will ultimately have their place in the lake of fire. The Church is the first to be judged. Peter said it this way in 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God. That ensuing judgment is shown to John in Revelation Chapters Two & Three; its consequences forthcoming, and Jesus’ reward for our faithfulness presented to us when we see Him. Rev 22:12. Now all that call upon the name of the Lord are believers (Rom 10:13), and white robes are a distinguishing factor of a believer showing their having been washed in the blood of the Lamb; we read of the Great Multitude’s righteousness in Rev 7:14. The 24 elders are shown with white robes in Rev 4:4, and the 144,000 are said to have been redeemed. In Rev 14:4 . . These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. And in Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Hope this helps brother in Jesus’ name.

Hi again Brother Diaste. John is shown different groups appear with Jesus. For instance the 24 elders and 4 living ones are with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation, and they are round bout Jesus’ throne in Rev 4:4, and in the midst, and round bout His throne in Rev 4:6. Hopefully later we can expound on the reason for their being separate and kept from the temptation to come upon all the world, but for now, long story short it comes down to faithfulness, and the word that separates many even among believers. Not every portion of the seven churches of Revelation Chapters Two & Three were promised the same rewards. The next major group we see of the Church are those of the Great Multitude in Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Do you consider these of the Great Multitude to be saints of God?) They are not round bout, and/or in the midst of the throne as those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 were. A third and most prominent part of the Church to be caught up to God will be the 144,000 redeemed from among men said to be the firstfruits to God and the Lamb in Rev 14:4. I must ask which men were they redeemed from? Weren’t they those of Rev 7:3 through Rev 7:8 sealed of every tribe of Israel? Notice something else about them; they stand before the throne (not in the midst of the throne), the 24 elders and the four living ones, and it is the heavenly Jerusalem of mount Sion (Heb 12:22) they have been caught up to. Blessings again in Christ Jesus.

Thanks for the good questions. I hope I can give answers that will be clear. I will also only answer one question per reply so as to not get one responce too long. One thought continues to come to mind and Jesus said in Rev 1:1 . . . shew His servants things which must shortly come to pass . . . (My bible says that the book of Revelation was written in 95 AD, and I know there is contention as to that being the date.) Next I would ask where we find the term "The Lord's Day" anywhere in scripture other than Rev 1:10? We do see many references to "The Day of the Lord. Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. I will attempt to define that Day of the Lord as one of judgment, and the Lord's collecting of His own, and separation of the dead from among them. Rev 1:10 Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, . . . (Was this really Sunday as many suppose, or was John caught forward in spirit to the future time of Jesus taking the "All power" given Him in Mt 28:18? Okay I'll present testimony of others defing this Day which I believe begins with the beginning of the temptation to come upon all the world, and extending through the Millennium, and we read in 1Co 15:28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. The Lord's Day, or the Day of the Lord. From this future time beginning with Rev 4:1 John is shown three viewpoints. Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. Looking up Rev 1:10 using Bible Hub, most bibles translate it using the term “The Lord’s Day.” (possibly due to the Latin Vulgate translation of the fourth century. Exceptions were International Standard Version, and Jubilee Bible 2000 translating it as “the Day of the Lord.” http://tyndalearchive.com Another way of writing The Lord's Day is The Day of the Lord. From a grammatical standpoint, both are in the genitive (possessive) case and express the same meaning. There are numerous Scriptural references to the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2: 12-18; 13: 9; Jeremiah 46: 10; Joel 1: 15, 16; 2 Peter 3: 10). All speak of a day in which Yahweh brings destruction on the earth. It is not a quiet day of worship on the first day of the week. Read the whole Book of The Revelation. The writer has described a time of destruction. There is reference to the voice sounding like a trumpet in the passage under discussion. This is consistent with subsequent references in this book (4: 1; 8: 13; and 9: 14). John was taken in the Spirit to a great day of the future. Two passages which are used along with the one being discussed to prove that the seventh-day Sabbath had been replaced by Sunday (the first day of the week) are Acts 20: 7 and 1 Corinthians 16: 2. Use of these, however, shows a lack of knowledge and understanding of Jewish custom. The Sabbath had not been changed to the first day of the week by Jesus. Note that Matthew 28: 1 and Hebrews 4: 9 indicate that the Sabbath was still being kept. However, both references have been mistranslated in many versions of the Scriptures. Hebrews 4 also refers to the Sabbath being kept in the future. The first day of the week begins following the closing of the Sabbath at sundown on Saturday. Candles are used in this closing ceremony. This accounts for the lights at that meeting. Following the ceremony, it is customary to have a meal. Thus, the people had met together on the first day of the week to break bread. After this and during the night, Paul preached to the people. He did not preach all afternoon and evening on Sunday and through the early hours of Monday until morning. Since the people, as well as Paul, were strict about observing the Sabbath, they would not be collecting money on that day. Thus, the direction was given to collect on the first day of the week, which could be on Sunday evening after the closing ceremony or all day on Monday. It was unlike the Christian churches of today that collect on the day of worship, which happens to be the first day of the week.