Isaiah 6:8

----------------------------------------------------------- One doesn't need money to sow into the kingdom. ----------------------------------------------------------- Yes I know. However since the topic is money I speak of it. Sadly many many christians do not sew into the kingdom at all in any way shape or form.

Yes. The key word was himself. Solomon ignored this whole verse. He multiplied both wives and wealth for himself, look at the extravagance of his house that far outshone the house of the Lord. David brought in a lot of wealth, for the Lord and his people. David brought in most of the wealth for the building of the temple, and yet his heart was not deceived. The riches were secondary. The cares of the world came in, and the riches, deceived him, in my opinion, because of his lack of trust in the Lord. Worrying about material cares makes riches seem like a good way to fix your problems. As we both agree your real problems can never be fixed by riches. Again the Riches in and of themselves are not evil, its the heart of the person. This verse does not apply to only wealth. But to all temptations. Again look at my list of wealthy in the Bible where they deceived by their wealth? If it was so evil, why did God make them wealthy and even give back to Job more than he had before he lost everything? Remember that they way we deal with money in any amount shows our heart issue. I know multi-millionaires that there wealth has no hold on them and i know people who are drowning in debt only to try to appear well off or wealthy. To me that is just as much a deceit and a trap. For their heart is in not in wealth but appearing wealthy. Remember the key is this verse. Mark 7:20 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” For an example of another issue that there is no real debate on, that is sexual temptations. Sex, in the context of marriage is a good and desirable thing. However outside of the covenant of marriage it is an destructive thing and In proverbs the wise man describes the adulteress as deceitful. You see again wealth in the proper context is fine. I believe if you are blessed with great wealth, as Job was it is a blessing to be used to bless others. Again I must emphasise that if you remember that you do not own the wealth but the Lord and you are a Manager of the wealth he gives you to manage. Lets read, and remember that a Talent was a measurement of money, worth about 9 years of wages. The Parable of the Talents 14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. 29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ I think my overall point is this. Many Christians do not handle their money well. They do what average people do and that is spend money they don't have, on things they don't need to impress people they don't like. Many Christians are broke, and they feel that this is somehow godly as being wealthy is my its nature "Evil" as is money. They mishandle the money God gives them to manage, and so God will not give them more to manage. Even if they manage money a little better they avoid trying to have extra to give, again because in their head Money and wealth in its nature is a trap and evil. Remember you must take things in context and the whole word, not just part. Also look at biblical examples, and they only people whose wealth was a problem had other heart issues, every single one of them, the wealth issue was a big but secondary issue. It was a wealthy man in my case who paid out of pocket for my entire time as a missionary. The missionary bases new extension campus was paid for primarily by wealthy christians. To wrap up, I believe all Christians should manage their money wisely. If they do, by the nature of how money works they will eventually become wealthy. That is to say if you spend less than you make and save money, and do not ever get into debt you will eventually become wealthy. This is not chasing riches, this is not making money the center of your life, this is slowly over time with wisdom and hard work managing the money the Lord has given to you and increasing it, just like the good steward. With this money you can then turn around and sew it into the kingdom, and be a blessing. To have wealth, just to be wealthy is putting your money where God should be is most definitely wrong. To have God at the center of your heart, and have HIs wealth to manage to take care of your family, and to give, is a wonderful thing and something many in the Church today are missing. Too many babies are being tossed out with the bathwater on this one. Steven I recommend that you watch that video I linked to, it will give you an Idea of what I mean.

In the above statement Our Lord teaches us that within riches lie deceit... then anyone with riches also has deceit-> for that is with them by fulfillment of God's Word! As seen the man that came to Him and said: Mk 10:18-21 18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'" 20 And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." 21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." NKJV Here The Lord loved him because the indication is the man was trying to obey Christ Word! YET the deceitfulness within riches is seen: He had labored and worked and sacrificed to have them and when offered eternal non-ending wealth for trade of his earthly gain he declined... That is why the Lord warns us to beware when we think we stand lest we fall... it is why in humility I prefer to give my gain away so I am not deceived and my heart is upon His Promises rather than the things of this life! Love, Steven Steven, my brother, this type of thinking, Is why I started this thread and I disagree with you, from what I have read in the word. Lets start with a list of wealthy Biblical Hero's who were not stumbled by their wealth. Abraham Isaac Jacob Joseph Job David Joseph of Arimathea, (who paid for Jesus' burial) And last but not least, the good Samaritan, who while apparently not a real person but an example given by Jesus, is wealthy enough to pay for every need the poor beaten man needed. As for the rich young ruler, well his wealth was only a part of his issues, and I suggest you read "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who elaborates the story much better than I can. Remember that the wealth owned him, not the other way around. So yes, riches can be a trap, and we must guard our heart with all diligence as the word says, however riches in and of themselves are not evil or bad. Now I am going to propose one thing that will perhaps shock. I believe that not enough christians are wealthy The wealthy have power on this earth to cause great good and great evil, so why should christians who, by definition should be Christ like, and good, be poor, or just making it bye while letting evil people have all the resources to do evil? The trick is to remember this very important thing. We do not own anything. God does. He gives us our life and many good things, and he wants the best for us. If we are responsible, with money that he gives us, he may give us more, But it is money to manage, not to own ourselves, See the example of the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. The servants were given wealth to manage for the Lord, and when they managed well they were given more to manage. I believe we are servants of the Lord, and I believe that many of us do not manage the little money the Lord has given us to start. When we get better at managing the money we have to start I believe that the Lord will give us more to manage. I personally do hope to be wealthy enough to be able to fund as many missionaries as I can. I would love to be able to hear of a ministry that needs a new building and just be able to pay for the whole thing. Again the Lord says he is the one who gives us the ability to create wealth but not to forget HIm in the process.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPTMA7HIIyk Instant waterworks for my wife! Who is pregnant by the way, and that does not help!

I am almost a year into almost losing my marriage of now, 9 years. Its been nothing short of a miracle that we are still together. The problems ran deep, and no ones story is the same. What saved us is a lot of prayer and counselling together and separately We have been learning how to both communicate our feelings and how to hear what the other person is saying. Its been a long hard process and there is no such thing as an over night fix. It has helped be a lot personally reading the books. "If only He Knew" By Gary Smally, and "Love and War" by John and Staci Eldrige. The biggest trick was, to stop focusing on what the other person needs work on, but to work on yourself. I spent years thinking that my marriage problems were all my wife's fault, and after almost losing her I come to find that it was almost all my fault, and my pride and stubbornness, I felt that I was a good husband and my wife had all the issues. When I realised otherwise and finally humbled myself before both her and more importantly the Lord things started to change! And now after 9 years of marriage and being unable to conceive we have finally gotten pregnant!

well I just had the same thing, still do a bit, doc gave me a powerful cough medicine. He said I was not sick but my airways were irritated and so I coughed. Caughing made them irritated. So I would cough again. etc etc etc..... so need to knock back the cough long enough to get your airways healed up. Its worth a shot.

Out on your own with your own self reliance You've got no one to watch your back You find yourself caught with no strong alliance You've been left open for attack Over your heard the condition is graver You've given ground you can't retrieve The cards are stacked and they're not in your favor But you've got an ace up your sleeve Get on your knees and fight like a man You'll pull down strongholds if you just believe you can Your enemy will tuck his tail and flee Get on your knees and fight like a man Under the gun, you've got no place to hide out Backed in the corner on your own This is one storm you are destined to ride out One way to leave the danger zone Find more similar lyrics on http://mp3lyrics.com/DrCk Get on your knees and fight like a man You'll pull down strongholds if you just believe you can Your enemy will tuck his tail and flee Get on your knees and fight like a man You've got the backbone to fight this tide You've got the will to survive You've got the weapon, it's at your side You've got to learn to confide Get on your knees Fight like a man Get on your knees and fight like a man You'll pull down strongholds if you just believe you can Your enemy will tuck his tail and flee Get on your knees and fight like a man

I am closing this thread as it appears that the atheists can not seem to answer the question it asks, and yet continues to judge god from there own morality, which came from??...

Wow yet again this thread is hijacked by atheist telling us how evil God is and yet they miss the question. Where does the atheist (Tishtaler) (Valorian) Get there morals to Judge God by? They are sitting on a high horse judging what they think is the god we server, (it is not) and yet refuse to state where they came up with there moral code to stand from. That is the question of this thread, where do you get the moral code to try to judge God by?

Didnt he say something about not killing..... Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB) "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT) "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT) And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT) "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26) (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.) If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT) Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT) And thats not all of them, hes a lunatic!!!! and yet you do not answer the OP. where `i aske where do you get your morals or vantange point to call god a lunitic or evil as you have. `you seem to admit his existnce but you think he is crazy.\

closed for review

I think the point is this... Spending time with God is a good thing, however you need to do more then say a prayer and think your good. Yes there are times to sit at his feet but we also need to obey as it says in Zechariah... The people were fasting but not obeying, and they were cursed not blessed! So you need to work on your heart on all aspects, not just fasting and praying etc..

Just a reminder folks, from the TOS. Personal attacks are not allowed, if they continue I shall shut the thread down.

Did you make this? My Lake, good work! I had some of Angel Falls but lost them in a flood of my home in 2007. Dennis I wish I had those skills but alas I do not. I found this on Facebook! However I did grow up there!

Driving through the tiny rural town of Athens, Texas, and you’d be hard pressed to find something that might catch national attention -- or so it was until about a week ago. An hour and a half outside of Dallas, the Athens town square is dominated by the county courthouse, and this time of year, Christmas decorations are on each corner. But it is the nativity scene across the street from the Taco Bell that has caused controversy. It started with a simple letter. As Jefferson County commissioner Joe Hall tells it, he received the shock of his life when he found out a Wisconsin group was demanding that the nativity scene be taken down. “We get a letter saying you better do this or we're going to do that," Hall said. A letter from Wisconsin telling Texans what they ought to do? “You come to my house looking for a fight, you're gonna get one," he said. Since then, many folks in the county have come out in support of the nativity scene, which has been on the square in some form or another for three decades. But the group asking for it to be removed says it has legitimate concerns. The Freedom From Religion Foundation is an atheist group based out of Madison. Co-founder Annie Laurie Gaylor says the group received a complaint from one of its members in Athens. She says since the display is right in front of the courthouse, the nativity scene makes it look like county government is endorsing Christianity. “This excludes non-Christians and non-believers who are 17 percent of the U.S. population," Gaylor said. "So it's necessary there should be changes.” The Freedom From Religion Foundation is not just asking that the nativity scene come down. It’s now also asking that a banner go up. “One of the commissioners said to the effect that other people could put up their views,” Gaylor said. So one group member thought, why not put up a banner? If you thought the nativity was controversial, wait until you see the banner. It reads: “At this season of the Winter Solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth & superstition that hardens hearts & enslaves minds.” There’s no word on when the banner might go up. If Hall has his way, it will be never. In the meantime, one or two women standing stand each day in front of the nativity scene with a petition urging others to sign in support of keeping the nativity where it is. A group of pastors is also planning a rally this weekend. A pastor who’s planning it says he expects a couple thousand people to pack the square. What happens next? Gaylor said the Freedom From Religion Foundation will wait and see what county government does, but the group’s next move could include legal action. Hall has said if it comes to that, the county has already received offers of legal help. He also says the nativity scene will come down “after Christmas, or when hell freezes over.” Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/14/texas-town-braces-for-battle-with-atheists-over-nativity-scene/#ixzz1gYBivVGS

http://player.vimeo.com/video/33332693 Video will not embed!

Praying for you brother, I suggest this book http://www.amazon.com/If-Only-He-Knew-Resist/dp/0310214785 By gary Smally, It has been changing my marriage in good ways, its worth a look!

Scary thing is this, change a few names and its perfectly fitting for today!

There is a difference between blocking loopholes, and raising taxes. Two different animals, and Reagan was not out like Obama to tax the rich.

I moved this to the Video forum and embedded the video.

Trickle down does work. In reverse every time. You raise taxes, and employers raise the cost of goods, they cut hiring, and they cut workforce, they pay lower wages. You see the number one thing you learn as a manager is this. The only real cost of business you have a hold on is your Labor costs. So when things get tight, expenses go up, you do every thing you can to cut your labor, you hire more part time employees at a lower wage, you get rid of your higher earning full time employees you cut hours you do everything you can to save money by hurting your employees. I was taught that as assistant manager and I saw it happen to me in the workplace on many occasions. As costs went up for the business employees suffered. Sure some business did help out when costs went down, but not all, however they did not work to lower the labor cost if there was no need. So Yes Trickle down does work. Now Rush was wrong, however Obama was also wrong.

If Tim Tebow was a Muslim, then Pamela Geller and Fox would be crying to the high heavens about Muslims existing in our society and Sharia Law. You bet people would call on him to apologize. And yet when a Muslim shoots up an army base we call it what?...."Workplace Violence" not a "Muslim Terror attack? http://www.newsroomamerica.com/story/198846.html The government whitewashes Islamic attacks and makes them not so... So what do you think would happen if it was a Muslim offering prayer to Allah. Nothing no reaction it would be buried or lauded as a moment towards understanding.

By Balazs Koranyi OSLO — The soaring popularity of a fat-rich fad diet has depleted stocks of butter in Norway creating a looming Christmas culinary crisis. Norwegians have eaten up the country's entire stockpile of butter, partly as the result of a "low-carb" diet sweeping the Nordic nation which emphasizes a higher intake of fats. "Sales all of a sudden just soared, 20 percent in October then 30 percent in November," said Lars Galtung, the head of communications at TINE, the country's biggest farmer-owned cooperative. A wet summer which reduced the quality of animal feed and cut milk output by 25 million litres had already limited supplies and the shortage has led some pundits to suggest the world's eighth-largest oil exporter offer some of its plentiful fuel supply in exchange for butter. "Norwegians are not afraid of natural fats, they love their butter and cream," Galtung told Reuters. Butter is now selling on Norway's top auction website, with a 250-gram piece starting at around $13, roughly four times its normal price. Just weeks before Norwegians will be expecting to eat plenty of buttery traditional biscuits and other homemade Christmas treats made with love and the liberal inclusion of dairy products, residents of the world's second-richest per-capita country can't even hope for help from a friendly neighbour who is rolling in butter. Top dairy producer Denmark lies just across a narrow sea channel, but its stores of creamy butter will be kept out of the country by the high import duties of Norway, the only Nordic nation that does not belong to the European Union. Still, the problem has certainly provided the Danes with a good laugh over their richly buttered breakfast toast. Morning TV show Go' Morgen Danmark amid much hilarity offered a paltry 1,000 packets of butter on Wednesday to help ease the pain. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45616920/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/#.TuNAK7Ik67s