ParanoidAndroid

Thanks for the response, Shiloh. In keeping with my comments from my last post, I shall not be rehashing arguments that have already been given. It doesn't serve anyone to argue around in circles. Therefore I shall only be discussing here issues that have not yet been raised (or have not yet been adequately dealt with). Thanks to Shiloh for his participation in this debate

What disgusts me about all of this is how all the outrage here is being aimed at the church congregation for allowing such people to worship as members! It took 4 pages of responses before someone even mentioned the crimes of the anti-abortionist killer, and then it took only a page later (page 5) for someone to attempt a moral justification for the killing of an abortion doctor under the guise of "justifiable homicide" (in principle if not in action). And where the condemnation of the event did come, there was often more outrage about how this will affect the Gospel of Jesus rather than the act of murder. Someone earlier stated that "if this is Christianity, I'd rather be an atheist", and in light of what has been said in this thread, I am so close to agreement. Maybe I would not go so far as to claim atheism specifically, but I suspect that was an exaggeration to prove a point. I'm not sure the "Christian" label fits any longer - I certainly do not agree with the pro-choice movement, and indeed view abortion as akin to murder. But at the same time, the rabid fundamentalism I have seen from various Worthy-members since I became a member here has opened a door to something that I just don't recognise as Christ-like. No wonder all those atheists and non-religious people attack me because of my beliefs. They aren't attacking me, they are attacking what they think I represent - the views of bigots who are more outraged by the acceptance of a person at church than with a person who professes to be Christian who takes a gun and shoots someone in cold blood. I need a new title to identify myself to non-Christians that better represents the Faith that Jesus taught and led me to. Where's the Love, because I just can't see it anymore?

No rebuttal, MG. What's the point in responding when those who listen do not really listen? Thanks for the prayers though One can never get enough of the help of the upstairs variety.

I give up. Honestly, I don't even know why I try. Someone else can tell you how contradictory such a statement here is. I'll just leave it and shake my head - I have no time to argue with the wilfully ignorant. All the best,

Remember that 1900 years ago, Christianity was considered a cult also Today this view has obviously changed, but the earliest (1st century AD) prevailing view was that Christianity was simply a cultic offshoot of Judaism. Just a thought

Considering that one of the key definitions of a "cult" is the number of worshippers that is a little problematic. A cult can often be described as a set of beliefs that contradict the status quo. Therefore what constitutes a cult can often be dictated by the prevailing beliefs of the time. When 1/6'th of the world (approximately 1.1 billion people) follow Islam, it cannot be considered as part of a "cult" - the numbers do not permit such a definition. Defining anything as a "cult" is problematic, for more reasons than I have shared. It would be good to find a definition of "cult" that we can all agree on before making such statements. We already have a codified definition of "religion", and despite Islam fitting every one of the seven points in my dictionary some have dismissed it without any real alternative explanation.... ~ PA

So what part of the definitions of "religion" did you disagree with to say that Islam is not a religion? I do understand that you have a very personal dislike of Islamic beliefs, but simply stating that they are a cult does not in any way address the debate.

On what basis are you making such a statement, MG? I've just gone and checked the dictionary definitions of "religion" and every single one of them can be applied to religion in some form or other. However you bend it, Islam is a religion - you may not like it or agree with it, but it is still a religion by definition. Wow; I wrote that post two months ago! At first, I didn't know why you were even asking me such a question! But, now that I've refreshed my memory, islam is a cult. Yes. On what grounds do I say this? They keep adherents by threat of death, they worship a false god, they preach from a false 'Holy Book', they promise sexual favors to the 'faithful' (to the men, anyway), they set up a system of laws and demand complete submission and they teach that all who don't believe are evil and should be killed. Islam is not just a cult; it's the devil's very OWN cult. Sorry, didn't realise you wrote that so long ago. I haven't been around all that often the past few weeks. I misread "Mar 31" to be "May 31". In any case, here is what my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary says about "religion": 1- A state of life bound by monastic vows; the condition of one who is a member of a religious order; the religious life. 2- A particular monastic or religious order or rule; a religious house 3- Action or conduct indicating a belief in, reverence for, and desire to please, a divine ruling power; the exercise or practice of rites or observances implying this; religious rites. 4- A particular system of faith and worship 5 - Recognition on the part of man of some higher unseen power as having control of his destiny, and as being entitled to obedience, reverence, and worship; the general mental and moral attitude resulting from this belief, with ref. to its effect upon the individual or the community; personal or general acceptance of this feeling as a standard of spiritual and practical life. 6 - Devotion to some principle; strict fidelity or faithfulness; conscientiousness; pious affection or attachment 7 - The religious sanction or obligation of an oath Now let's take these definitions one at a time and compare them to Islam. 1- There are indeed Imams and Sheiks in Islam that fulfil the condition of being a member of a religious order. 2- Sharia law is a form of religious rule, and they are ruled by clerics mentioned in point 1. 3- Muslims act in certain ways that define themselves as followers of a divine ruling power, the rites and practices they perform at Mosque and at home typify this. 4- Islam is most definitely a particular system of faith and worship based on submission to Allah. 5- Muslims believe a higher unseen power has control of their lives and is worthy of obedience, respect, reverence and worship. 6- They are devoted to several principles that strictly govern their way of life. 7- Finally, Muslims are obliged to complete several oaths in their lifetime (eg, pilgrimage to Mecca). By all seven definitions of "religion" in my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Islam applies. You cannot dismiss it as a religion simply because you don't like what it teaches or how you think/feel it acts towards its followers and enemies. Regards,

People have said the same thing about Christianity - the amount of prisoners adopting Christianity is not inconsequential....

On what basis are you making such a statement, MG? I've just gone and checked the dictionary definitions of "religion" and every single one of them can be applied to religion in some form or other. However you bend it, Islam is a religion - you may not like it or agree with it, but it is still a religion by definition.

That's a fair enough statement, but it would help if you perhaps did both? Quote the material as you did here, and then sign off the material with the source link???? I would certainly like to see where you got the information from Regards, PA

Christianity is still the largest religion in the world, but it is decreasing in numbers slowly (denominations aside - some, such as the Pentecostals are increasing, but overall numbers are decreasing by approximately 1% per year - last time I checked, at least). Islam is the second-largest religion in the world and is growing rapidly. Whether it is the "fastest growing" in the world I think depends largely on where in the world you actually live. In America this is not the case - I don't live there but I have read statistics to show that it is not growing faster than any other belief. Europe, however, is a different story - in Europe, Islam really is the largest growing religion in the world. I don't know how this translates to worldwide statistics, I haven't really looked at specific numbers recently. However, this must be tempered by an understanding of statistics. Remember that "fastest growing" is based on a percentage of adherents. If someone starts a religion and has only one member to begin, if they recruit 4 members, they are increasing at 400%, which makes them probably the fastest growing religion in the world. They still only have 5 members, but would be considered the "fastest growing". Statistics are funny like that - they can change depending on how one uses numbers to their advances. For the question raised in the opening post, it is enough to know they are the second largest religion worldwide, with approximately 1 billion adherents (again, last time I checked).

I was thinking something along the same lines. It always helps to provide support for claims such as this. It must be remembered though that the ancient Hebrew language did not distinguish specific numbers of legs. By stating that they went on four legs, it simply was referring to their ability to walk in fullness of ability. It was never a specific discourse on the scientific minutia of the different animal species.