Diolectic

Has anyone ever wondered how God could take delite in making people come to Him against their wills, by this so called "regeneration". They are really nothing more than brainwashed. when they come to Him, it is only because they had no choice. When in reality they would realy prefer to continue hating Him. When the truth is to be told, they don

Some say that those who arer not predestind to salvation can not obey HIS command because HE will not give them the ability or the will to obey(that is a devilish tyrant). Please, tell me why God would command to repent and have faith but not give the ability of will to obey the command? Example: God: Recieve My Son to be forgiven of your sin. However, I will not give you the will to do that because I did not predestin you for that, therefore, I will conemn you for not obeying me.

So if someone goes forward and recites some sort of sinners prayer, he is home and hosed and glory bound. Is that what you are saying? That you are no longer a sinner, because you have followed the steps to salvation?I say that if you are truly saved, one shouldn't be called a sinner. You think that because a christian sins, he should be called a sinner. My whole poinbt is that term should only be for, well, sinners, the wiched, the non-saved. A christian who sins does not make him a sinner, makes his weak or in the flesh and so forth. You make your point out of one scripture, I make mine out of 66. Go figure. I relize just what a sinner one actually is and I've been trying to show you. Grace is undeserved, I know that, however Now that I have Grace, I do not desere the wrath that sinner have. I have a Dr. of theology agreeing with all this. Pobably, because he understands what I am saying which aparently you don't. I don't know why you get your shorts all in a bunch over a term which is used for the unsaved 66 times out of all the 67 times in the whole entire Bible. I am on the scriptural side of the argument, you are on the emotional sentimental side, pleas face the facts of the biblical term of the use of the word sinner as I am trying to explain.

Stumbling cannot be used as an excuse for not siining and has to be repented of and forgiven asked. You don't have to premeditate sin to be guilty of sin, but if you do not confess your blunder and repent of it and seek forgiveness, Jesus said in Luke.13, if you dont repent, you will perish. Taking up the cross is not easy, but oh! the joy of the rewards. You are a sinner, mate, albeit a forgiven one. I agree, however, The point I am making is that Cristians are not "sinners" Just because a christian sins, does not make him a sinner. A sinner is one who practises sin. One who sins with out remorse. One who does not hate sin. One who noes not have Eternal life. No christian will be accountable for their sin/sins when he/she stands before the Lord on judgement day. Romans 4:8 blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge/account/impute sin."

Sorry, I thought I was responding to your points. Please restate them. It's not the"new man". All people have inner men, the inner man is the soul. Paul was a Pharisee, he loved God's law while he was unsaved. What are the points that I am missing, what is the text that is being discussed? Here is one: Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. Psalm 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. or is that not relevent eather, as you say? There are a total of 46 uses of the term "sinners" and 21 uses of the term "sinner". You use only one that is used for the reason of humility and regret. The other 66 uses of the word "sinners" & "sinner" is what I am talking about. Yes. I did not hate my neighbor. There was not chance to love(verb) my neighbor. I do love God. I prove my love to Him by walking after the Spirit to fulfill the righteousness of the law(Rom 8:4) In return, I do not walk after the flesh, so as not to fulfil the lust of it.(Gal 5:16) Notice the vers That I quoted along with my answer? Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. I may have sinned today, but I don't recall willingly rebeling against God today. I have no motive to sin. I may stumble, goof up, mess up, what ever. However, I am not premedtating sin at all. Sinners liv in sin. They willingly rebeling against God and premedtate sin along with every motive of there heart that is against God. If this is you, since you call yourself a sinner, Repent and stop living in sin. No Christian goes around habitualy sinning or practising nin all day, or even premedtates to sin, If you do, Stop it and repent you filthy sinner!!!! I do admit that I do stumble, have you not read that i admit to sinning? I acknowledge what a terrible sinner that I really was. However, Now I don't practise sin or habitualy sin. All I do is stumble with sin.

I do. We are legally counted, therfore actualy righteous. No, the only way you are not a sinner is if you do not practise sin. That much is very clear. That is what this verse means: 1John 3:6 1Jn 3:6 Every one abiding in Him is not sinning. Everyone sinning has not seen Him, nor known Him. The word "sinning" is present contiual active. That is not real Christians Romans 7 is his presalvation confesion. It is not twisting Scripture and very honest. Because the term relates to the unsaved and those who practise sin. I'm not proud nor am I saying that I never stumble with sin, I am only stating the fact of the term. Do you know how to read? Not in deed, but maybe in though, but that I am not sure of. Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

The audacity is from studying the term. If Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and Paul was still a sinner, that would mean that he still needed saving after wards. 1Timothy 1:15 Trustworthy is the word and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom I am. Meaning that he is a saved sinner, therefore, no longer a sinner. As you notice two verses before, Who wasbefore a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: 1Timothy 1:13 Admitting that he was a sinner. All other verses in the whole New Testement with the word "sinner" Strongs Greek #268 is not the Christian or saved, Only that one time in 1Timothy 1:13 is Paul calling himself a sinner, So, whydid paul say this? Out of humility and regret, not of actuality. Romans 3:7 For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner? Paul is calling himself not a sinner here. Romans 5:8 But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners. contrasting us when we were still sinners then to now. Gal 2:17 But if seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Let it not be! Not a sinner here. 1Tim 1:9a Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, Hmmm, few verses before he called himself a sinner. 1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Sinner compared with the ungodly.

No one deserves grace, however, once one already has recieved the grace of salvation there is no more deserving of that punishment which is death and not hell. You are mistaken that penalty of sin is hell, however, the penalty of sin is spiritual death(Rom 6:23), the penalty of sin is not ''to suffer an eternal punishment''. The only reason That the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die without Eternal Life. If one has Eternal Life after one dies physicaly, he comes into the presence of God, then to die physicaly without Eternal Life(spiritual death) is eternal punishment. If one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is nashing of teeth. If I have Eternal life already and Christ has my sins covered, They are not put on my account, I remain inocent and no deserving of death anymore. We are not sinners. Sinners are the ones who still practices sin.

No I am saying that I am no longer accountible for my sins, I am only accountible to God. Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. In other words, My sins are no longer accounted to my charge, therefore no deserving hell. If there remains a desert, then the atonement is not complete.

The Bible says, "He can command the sun not to rise" (Job 9:7)rather than, "He can command the earth to stop moving." Make a doctrint that the sun moves and not the Earth. That God would direct His command at the sun rather than the earth, that implied the sun moves and not the Earth. "The sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again." (Eccles. 1:5) Verses that spoke of the "rising" and "setting" of the sun, "hastening to its place" so that it may "rise there again," is not so easy to explain away. Why don't you make a daoctrin that the sun moved daily around the earth and not the Earth rotataing? . Compare Psalm 19:4-6 "In [the heavens] He has placed a tent for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices like a strong man to run its course, its rising from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them." Surly you can't ignore these. GO make a doctrin that the sum moves around the Earth and not the Earth rotataing. You have plenty of Scriptural backing: The sun stood still, but it don't say that the Earth stood still. The only thing we received though Adam is Physical death. So you would say that the soul of an embrio that is miscarried would go to hell. Or an aborted baby for that matter. what does that verse I gave mean? Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin If these are correct, where is the christian's guilt that you say we still have in which we still desrve hell?

I did not mean that he wasn't lamenting his own wicked ness, but I was telling you that you can not make a doctrine out of what he said. Does hyssop take our sin away? does it make us cleane?(Psa 51:7) Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Only God know the exact age for each child. Mently ill and the elderly are not the same, I will not get into that subject on this thread. When making statements like this, youneed to back them up with scripture. No: Rom 1:18-20 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness (they know the truth but suppress it); : 19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them. : 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 2:14, 15 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. : 15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them. I am saying that an infant or a newborn just out of the womb can not know God and can not be put under the same assessment as the mature for it can not comprehend and therfore can not have a nature against God nor for God. 1: Is it natural for a newborn to rebel? What law do the know? what is the newborns motive? 2: Can a babe just out of the womb have sinfull thoughts? 3: What law do they know in their hearts yet to rebel agains? 4: What is their guilt since they are not even ignorant of a law, but unable to be put under a law? 5: Why would God, with such a great love for His creation, condemn it with Adam's sin when it has not yet sinned? Since God loves His creation so much, why would He impose a nature on it againt it's will and/or charge it with an indictment or a responsibility of sin before they are even born which they don't deserve and one of wich HE hates? If I still deserv wrath, than you are saying that Jesus didn't take the place of wrarth on my part. If you already have, please restate it, I missed it and can not find. Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? The answer would be NO! Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Why does God take no pleasure in the death of the wicked? He loves them, but not what they do. I know that the Bible says thay God hates the wicked, however, He loves them as His creation. Think of Jeramiah. He weeped at God's judgments. He was represeanting God's heart. You may say that God weep when He judges. I do believe that Jesus is God! However, the sinners can not call God thiere Father. That is the relaitionship I am speeking of.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. Iniquity is the consequence of sin. David is simply stating that the world is full of sin, he didn't say that he was "brought forth with iniquity. He did not say that he was conceived with sin. Lamentations 5:7 Our fathers sinned and are no more, But we bear their iniquities There are circumsatances to sinnes that one must bear, these is this verse relate to the circumsatances of their fathers sins, not the judgment of guilt. Leviticus 26:39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies

Sin is an act and also of the will. You only think that because you say that sin is more than an act or of the will. Furthermore, you must be missunderstanding the Scriptures to think it. We are sinners because that is what we do, sin. We are human, not sinners in the way you imply. I've grown in my views for 20 years, they have changed and mutured and I am still growing and learning. I will be persuaded of the truth, will you? On the contrary, God only demands from us what He will enable us to do. HE demands nothing that we are incapable to do. He will always give the help for what He commands. No, because He has made away for all to comply with His demands and we stand condemned and deservedly so, only because we do not repent and be saved from His wrath. However, I do not deserve His wrath because of His blood, Amen! Do not throw away relationship! Why do we call HIM Father? The relationship is what saves us, read John 17:3.

What does a child prior to the age of reasoning need saved from? The child would go to heaven because it had not yet sinned, no inconsistency there. Children prior to the age of reasoning are saved not by virtue of their parents' faith, but by virtue of inocence. On the contrary, I have learnd that Calvinism makes God out to be a tyrant that make demands without providing away to comply. The demand to repent with out giving the faith or the so called regeneration to even repent. I have a view that makes Man responsible for being thrown to hell while Calvinism, on the other hand, makes God to be pre-damning people before the foundation of the world which makes hell not only made for the devil and his angles only, but also for man. Do you even know what atonement is? Yes! How eles would one say to sinners while preaching to them, "repent for Christ died for your sinns that you might be saved from God's wrath." God will punish that man for his sins if that man does not take advantage of Christ's sacrifice. Quit deminishing the Atonement! Atonement is not only effectual after one believes. You make the atonement of Christ a potential work instead of an active work. You make the atonement of Christ exclusive and not inclusive. The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.