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  1. As days go by in our life here on earth so many times our focus gets fixed on something transient and passing. Daily cares of life, all the needs and desires of others in our lives, even our own ambitions, and goals sometimes cloud the vision for what really matters. Remember when you started to know the Lord, the day you bowed your knee and spoke with your Lord who redeemed you? Remember the awe in your heart for Him who died for you? How sitting at his feet for hours was easy? We all can drift from this intimate focus on the Lord, where our hearts desire was for Him to just hear us and answer. Where we had a poor and needy attitude of being poor in spirit (Matthew 5:3). If you have drifted from this goal, you can still put your main aim to know Jesus more intimately, He is waiting for you. There is a wonderful contemporary song that captures some of the heart of being a friend with Jesus but still having great fear and awe in what He did for us, here are some of the lyrics: Wonderful, merciful Saviour Precious Redeemer and Friend Who would’ve thought that a Lamb could Rescue the souls of men Oh, You rescue the souls of men Here in our weakness You find us Falling before Your throne Oh, we’re falling before Your throne Today, set your heart back to the place where you first found Him. Not in just Bible reading, or in ministry endeavours or other Christian things, but in that place where you sat at the feet of Jesus (Luke 10:39) for Him alone. One day we will bow at His feet in heaven in adoration. Let us also now be found at His feet in intimate worship and relationship. Lord, I bow today before Your feet, I look to Your face and just long to hear words from Your mouth. Forgive me for being so distracted with other things. Precious Lord let me know You more intimately day after day until I see you soon. Amen.
  2. Whose tongue utters no slander, who does no wrong to a neighbour, and casts no slur on others. - Psalm 15:3 The psalmist David speaks of the type of person who can dwell near the Lord. When we speak against someone's reputation this is never a light thing. One who God dwells near should have absolutely no slander in his lips or in the heart. We all judge others or form opinions in our minds of others, we must be quick to cast down thoughts that are not based on our personal experience of the individual. When we hear stories or third-party stories of another brother and sister in the Lord and then cast a judgment we err. It is even worse when we take part in slandering someone when we have never known or spoken with the actual individual being blamed. Even if a brother or sister has erred in a significant way this is not our job or right to slander them, rather we should seek to pray for them and show the love of God. If we are praying for our sister or brother we will not be able to sin against them, but when we are sinning against them we can never truly pray for them. Polycarp bishop of Smyrna says, "Not quickly crediting an evil report against any one, not severe in judgment, as knowing that we are all under a debt of sin. If then we entreat the Lord to forgive us, we ought also ourselves to forgive; for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God." Though we know the theology that God is ever-present seeing all things, we usually act as if God cannot see. When we talk about others, ruin someone's name, write words that accuse we do not realize all of these words are in the sight of God. Our Lord even said that every single small word we utter or write will be held for account in the last day (Matthew 12:36). In the passage we are looking at the last statement is of significance. In Hebrew the words for "casts no slur" essentially gives us a word picture of someone picking up an object to throw at someone. Here we have words being spoken to others in reproach and scorn. The word "slur" in hebrew gives the sense of something that is despised. One who is a child of God cannot carry such hate in their heart no matter even if evil was done to them. When we speak about others in such ways we end up hurting ourselves spiritually and the Lord does not dwell near us. When we judge others like this we end up judging our Lord who became sin for that individual. We end up speaking against him as a despised thing. All humans are made in the image of God and when we sin against them we in a sense sin against God. David in his confession of sin against other humans realized that the sin was against God (Psalm 51:4). Let us do not wrong to our neighbour even to those who have hurt us.
  3. Here is an article I wrote that was published on Chrisma News highlighting Francis Chan on this topic: Francis Chan: Are You Destroying the Church? I wrote as part of it: Perhaps we can start to change our minds and start looking towards others with seeing their good and not bad, speaking blessings over others and not curses. Remember we are fitted together in a temple of God with all saints of all ages. And Francis gives the example of someone taking a sledgehammer to this temple. What a fearful thing to do, of course we would depart from such an individual for fear of what God Himself would do to him. As the Scripture says, "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them" (Titus 3:10, NIV).
  4. Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. – Acts 17:11 In modern evangelical circles the Bereans are esteemed as model believers that all should follow, and yes there are great attributes to them but also there are implications taken from them that are untrue. Firstly they were jews, meaning they were religious jews but not believing Christians. Yet Paul the Apostle states they had “noble character” meaning they had a sense of them that they were deep thinkers before coming to quick conclusions on a matter. They were willing to give others the benefit of the doubt. Secondly, we see that they gladly received the message, meaning they were teachable, willing to learn and adjust their own beliefs. They were not so dogmatic to think that they were perfect or not needing correction or perfecting of their thinking of the Scriptures. When they heard reasonable words shared from the truth of Scriptures they eagerly sought these out to see if they really were Scriptural and true. They were not defensive but rather looking to learn and grow in their relationship and walk with God. They were also diligent in that every day they looked to see if the things Paul was sharing was true. They did not just give up or judge Paul but were willing to listen to the other side of the story and not come to quick conclusions. What a wonderful picture of a people who in the end mostly “embraced” the gospel message, they certainly were “noble” and the Lord honoured that. The Bereans did not spend hours looking for gaps and mistakes in Paul’s and Silas’s teachings but looked to see what was true of what they were saying. Modern believers who esteem Bereans think of these things in a different way. They look to diligently check things with the Bible so they can accuse and criticize another person or ministry. Most people are usually have their mind made up someone is wrong and therefore go ahead and simply look for ways to attack another’s character, calling and ministry. Such ministries are known as discernment ministries or even heresy hunters. Most of those who follow the ways of these “type” of Bereans are joyless, critical in spirit, bitter or even angry. Many believe they can take down the ministry they are accusing and feel they are doing God’s work just like the early Bereans. If you desire to have life and peace, stay with the Word of God and stay away from those who make it their life’s work to criticize and accuse others. Follow the example of the true Bereans who were happy and joyfully to rejoice in truth when it was shared and be willing to grow in our understanding of the Lord.
  5. Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. – James 2:13 We all have been shown great mercy in our lives. God has shown great compassion and forgiveness towards us in not counting our sins against us. We were in a place were God was ready to punish us and cause us great harm in sending us to hell for eternity for our great sins. Yet he showed great mercy and love towards us, forgiving our sins in his Son. When we therefore show no mercy to others, especially believers, we sin greatly. Warren Weirsbe says, “The most miserable prison in the world is the prison we make for ourselves when we refuse to show mercy.” Such a prison many believers are in not being able to show mercy to others but being a great benefiter of mercy from God. God came down from above as the compassionate one to forgive your sins, yet we cannot show compassion to the sins of another believer. Judgmentalism is one of the great sins in the Church, as we are always faulty in the way we see others, never knowing someones motives and heart (Jeremiah 17:9). When we learn to be full of mercy for others, we start to share the heart of Jesus Christ who did not judge but showed compassion to failing humanity. Look into the eyes of Jesus Christ now and see his wounds where he was pierced for you, can you say to him that you cannot forgive another? Have mercy to another? The Desert Fathers were those who sought the Lord in a life of prayer in solitude, they sought God for God Himself. These were some of the godliest followers of the Lord in that era of Church history. A story of a Desert Father on not judging says, “A brother in Scetis committed a fault. A council was called to which abba Moses was invited, but he refused to go to it. Then the priest sent someone to him, saying, ‘Come, for everyone is waiting for you’. So he got up and went. He took a leaking jug and filled it with water and carried it with him. The others came out to meet him and said, ‘what is this, father?’ The old man said to them, ‘My sins run out behind me, and I do not see them, and today I am coming to judge the errors of another.’ When they heard that, they said no more to the brother but forgave him.” If we see our sins as this old godly brother did, we will not judge but show mercy to a fellow believer on this journey with the Lord. If we judged our own selves we would see our failings as great and have great mercy to others. We should find ourselves as the publican calling out to God for mercy constantly (Luke 18:13). Just like the pharisee in the temple praying we can judge our fellow brothers, looking down on the errors of others, but not seeing our own. Lord have mercy on me and help me to be merciful to others. Amen.
  6. dear brothers and sisters, I find it nothing wrong to bring out some truth and good believers from the period of history from 100-1500 AD. Christianity did not begin with Martin Luther and most would disagree with most of Luthers practice, clergy look, sacraments etc. I personally believe there were born again believers throughout the entire history of the Church and these are examples we can share to encourage a life of godliness and following the Lord today.
  7. Towards the desert fathers and the critique posted in this thread. I would say that I do not promote nor feel I have to endorse all their "techniques" of prayer to quote or mention them. There was a great amount of believers who went out during the dark ages to find reality in God alone and as the Churches lost some of the meaning beyond the symbols, their movement was authentic in seeking reality of God Himself for Himself. Were they perfect? by no means. Are they all like hindu's that is a crazy thought and personally does not even really warrant a response. We live in a day of anti-mysticism. Which essentially says we cannot "experience" God and it has to be only quoting bible verses without any experience. Jesus Himself said the Scriptures speak and lead to Him, but those in that day (pharisees) refused to have life. Evangelicalism is in need of those who seek God in silence and on their faces, waiting till they know and experience Him. Give me 100 people like this and they will leaven and share the reality of knowing Christ to this generation. It is proven that most christian leaders in the West pray less then 10 minutes per day. This is not a generation of leaders that will lead people into "knowing:" and experiencing God that will change their entire lives. I wrote an article on some large Christian news sites speaking on the fact we are living in a new Dark Ages in Evangelicalism.
  8. brother and sister, I have no agenda, I am simply sharing thoughts and burdens the Lord has given me. I am not Roman Catholic or trying to bring catholicism to this forum or any other place. I will try my best to answer any questions but most what I write is based on the scriptures so to look there first is best.
  9. Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. – James 2:13 We all have been shown great mercy in our lives. God has shown great compassion and forgiveness towards us in not counting our sins against us. We were in a place were God was ready to punish us and cause us great harm in sending us to hell for eternity for our great sins. Yet he showed great mercy and love towards us, forgiving our sins in his Son. When we therefore show no mercy to others, especially believers, we sin greatly. Warren Weirsbe says, “The most miserable prison in the world is the prison we make for ourselves when we refuse to show mercy.” Such a prison many believers are in not being able to show mercy to others but being a great benefiter of mercy from God. God came down from above as the compassionate one to forgive your sins, yet we cannot show compassion to the sins of another believer. Judgmentalism is one of the great sins in the Church, as we are always faulty in the way we see others, never knowing someones motives and heart (Jeremiah 17:9). When we learn to be full of mercy for others, we start to share the heart of Jesus Christ who did not judge but showed compassion to failing humanity. Look into the eyes of Jesus Christ now and see his wounds where he was pierced for you, can you say to him that you cannot forgive another? Have mercy to another? The Testimony Of The Desert Fathers The Desert Fathers were those who sought the Lord in a life of prayer in solitude, they sought God for God Himself. These were some of the godliest followers of the Lord in that era of Church history. A story of a Desert Father on not judging says, “A brother in Scetis committed a fault. A council was called to which abba Moses was invited, but he refused to go to it. Then the priest sent someone to him, saying, ‘Come, for everyone is waiting for you’. So he got up and went. He took a leaking jug and filled it with water and carried it with him. The others came out to meet him and said, ‘what is this, father?’ The old man said to them, ‘My sins run out behind me, and I do not see them, and today I am coming to judge the errors of another.’ When they heard that, they said no more to the brother but forgave him.” If we see our sins as this old godly brother did, we will not judge but show mercy to a fellow believer on this journey with the Lord. If we judged our own selves we would see our failings as great and have great mercy to others. We should find ourselves as the publican calling out to God for mercy constantly (Luke 18:13). Just like the pharisee in the temple praying we can judge our fellow brothers, looking down on the errors of others, but not seeing our own. Lord have mercy on me and help me to be merciful to others. The Example of Jonah, A Prophet Without Mercy We all know the story of the prophet who was swallowed by the fish. Children are amused and enough the thought of it! Yet as adults when we take time to read through the details we realize a much more serious and importance message is being given to us. Jonah was a holy prophet and admired by the people of Israel. He heard the voice of God many times and obeyed in sharing the truth with the people of God. But when the voice of the Lord told him to go to a very wicked people who worshipped the fish god, Jonah said no. He went the opposite direction in a boat but the Lord had a way of getting his attention and encouraging him to obey and speak repentance to those people. Jonah had seen time and time again God show mercy to Israel when they did not deserve it and it turned his stomach to think he would show mercy to the very wicked people of Nineveh. Even after preaching and seeing the peoples repentance Jonah still felt that God should judge them in some way (Jonah 4:1). We Can All Be Like Jonah We all can be like Jonah at times, especially if we are the people who have been hurt by others. The people of Nineveh enslaved and caused great harm to Israel before so the thought of forgiving them and even God showing mercy to have them become believers was too much for Israel or their prophet Jonah to accept. Have we been hurt by others in the world who we have not forgiven? Maybe we have forgiven them but do we want them to be saved? St. Benedict of Nursia says, “To hate no one. Not to be jealous or envious. To hate strife. To evidence no arrogance. Never despair of God’s mercy.” God’s heart is full of grace, meaning he wants to extend his love and mercy to those who do not deserve it especially. God is compassionate and very slow to anger against those that we feel deserve it. We are never called to hate anyone, desire evil for anyone, if we shared the true Spirit of Christ we will seek the mercy of the love for all of humanity. This also extends to the body of Christ that we would seek the good of all those who call upon the Name of the Lord. Steps To Be Free Of Judgementalism The journey to freedom is one footstep after another. To get out of a pit one has to start the climb out. After years of habitual judging of others we can find ourselves in a deep chasm of rooted sinful behaviour. Here are some small steps you can take daily to help: 1). Meditate on the Passion of Jesus Christ – Spend time in silence thinking upon the wounds of Christ. Think of the Crown of Thorns, the Pierced Side, the wounds afflicted to Christ when the soldiers were mocking Him. See your sins there causing such hurt to the Saviour. See your judgemental words heaped on Him. Also see the hope that Christ died to free us all from our passions and sins. 2). Show Acts of Mercy – No matter if you think a person deserves it or not, show mercy and kindness. Make deliberate acts to see the good in others and applaud them for these God given gifts. See where people do things better than yourself. Glory in God for anyway people serve God in a way you are not doing. Show deeds of mercy to others in gifts and kindness. Let no thought of judging to come into your mind. 3). Remind Yourself of Your Faults – When you are tempted to judge someone, consider your own faults and sins. When did you fail greatly in the same area or similar area. Look to yourself, consider how much mercy God gave you and then show that mercy to others. 4). Learn to Hate Judging – Learn to not hate others as St. Benedict counsels us but rather to hate the sins of jealousy, envying, strife, arrogance. Hate the sin of habitat judging as it’s a cancer of the soul. Put your focus on God, in worship and adoration, do not spend your time considering the faults of others even obvious false teachers or those departing from the faith. Look to your own soul find your lacks and where you are departing and pray for God’s mercy to finish well. May God give you complete victory as you daily put this sin under the blood of Christ and the victory of His holy Cross. The God who knows all thoughts of our mind and heart will cleanse and give you victory in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
  10. Sorry its a huge subject to reply in short discussion forum posts and I do not have time to invest a huge answer here. In short the creeds are: Apostles Creed (2nd century), Nicene Creed (4th century). Doctrine of the Trinity, etc Biblical beliefs such as Water Baptism, Lord's Supper, I am sure you aware that there are groups in church history that even deny all of these things I just wrote such as Quakers (no water baptism or lords supper), Salvation Army (no water baptism or lords supper) and many more who deny the trinity say no to church creeds, etc. the problem in these cases is heresy can more easily come into churches where the solid foundation of the historic church is not present as the early church battled heresy beliefs for hundreds of years and overcame them. Sorry that I do not have further time to respond here today.
  11. Churches that have passed on the creeds, history, beliefs, important biblical traditions. There are many new churches that are started that are true churches but are dislocated from the history of the church.
  12. Sister, I do not have a lot of answers, but it seems to me anglo-catholics are simply those anglicans who keep more sacraments and a high-church feel in their meetings. The man who made Todd+ a bishop was of that type of fellowship but that does not mean Bishop Todd is anglo-catholic. Historic churches are any church that connected more faithfully to the past generations to the Apostles. Trust that helps.
  13. When someone hears mention of the Anglican Church, the first thoughts that come to mind are unlikely to be about the Holy Spirit or deliverance from bondage. Yet, there is a movement within the Anglican Church of North America that is called “Via Apostolica” (Way of the Apostles) that originated from a large Church in Lethbridge, Canada where God called the lead pastor towards Anglicanism. The focus of their movement is called the 3 streams: Scripture, Sacrament and the Holy Spirit. This emphasis is defined on their website as those who “listens to Christ in the Scriptures, is connected to Christ by the Spirit, and communes with Christ through the Sacraments.” Bishop Todd Atkinson is the servant leader who has a passion to see radical discipleship and rooting in the great traditions of the Church. In a recent message given at a conference on inner healing called: Living Free. +Todd gave a powerful message on being set free from a life of self-bondage and focus. This inner healing and freedom from our own selfishness is part of what Jesus calls us to as disciples. The main Scripture shared in the message was the famous call of discipleship by Christ in St. Matthew: Here is an excerpt from the message where the life of self-focus is looked at: During the epitome of the message +Todd leads in a powerful prayer of deliverance asking Jesus to heal our spirits of the life of self-focus. As he said in the message this is first-step in a journey of deeper discipleship with Jesus Christ. Consider to read it first to mediate on what is being said then when you are ready read out-loud this prayer to God meaningfully by faith: Lord Jesus Christ, I release To You my life of self-focus Lord Jesus Christ, write Your ways upon our hearts Release me from my individualism, From making things all about me. Lord, have mercy Release me from my sentimentalism, From being led by my raw emotions. Lord, have mercy Release me from my entitlement From thinking I am owed things. Lord, have mercy Release me from my materialism, From looking to things for happiness. Lord, have mercy Release me from my skepticism, From anticipating disappointment Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.
  14. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. – Jonah 4:2 We all know the story of the prophet who was swallowed by the fish. Children are amused and enough the thought of it! Yet as adults when we take time to read through the details we realize a much more serious and importance message is being given to us. Jonah was a holy prophet and admired by the people of Israel. He heard the voice of God many times and obeyed in sharing the truth with the people of God. But when the voice of the Lord told him to go to a very wicked people who worshipped the fish god, Jonah said no. He went the opposite direction in a boat but the Lord had a way of getting his attention and encouraging him to obey and speak repentance to those people. Jonah had seen time and time again God show mercy to Israel when they did not deserve it and it turned his stomach to think he would show mercy to the very wicked people of Nineveh. Even after preaching and seeing the peoples repentance Jonah still felt that God should judge them in some way (Jonah 4:1). We all can be like Jonah at times, especially if we are the people who have been hurt by others. The people of Nineveh enslaved and caused great harm to Israel before so the thought of forgiving them and even God showing mercy to have them become believers was too much for Israel or their prophet Jonah to accept. Have we been hurt by others in the world who we have not forgiven? Maybe we have forgiven them but do we want them to be saved? St. Benedict of Nursia says, “To hate no one. Not to be jealous or envious. To hate strife. To evidence no arrogance. Never despair of God’s mercy.” God’s heart is full of grace, meaning he wants to extend his love and mercy to those who do not deserve it especially. God is compassionate and very slow to anger against those that we feel deserve it. We are never called to hate anyone, desire evil for anyone, if we share the true Spirit of Christ we will seek for mercy and love for all of humanity. This also extends to the body of Christ that we would seek the good of all those who call upon the Name of the Lord.
  15. Here are stats from 2001 stating 33,000 denominations: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm I will try and find the credible sources I saw for 42,000 denominations. And yes, that would include all christianity even cults.
  16. Good point. I guess how that flesh's out can determine if it is done in the spirit of Christ or in a critical abusive way. There are many doctrinal errors that do not lead to death and leaders in the body of Christ to be able to instruct people gently in the truth. Also with such divisions we find ourselves in (42,000 denominations) we have to be slow to judge and quick to listen and be willing to change or admit I "only saw in part."
  17. Over 3 years ago, God started to speak to me deeply on the great sin of division, slander, and gossip in the body of Christ. God started to have me in situations where great hurt was being done and I saw first hand the way the enemy used these tactics to destroy and hurt the testimony of Jesus Christ in others lives. One of many devotional articles I wrote during that time was called: God's Church Is Sacred In This Earth. The premise of the devotion was a warning that when we speak against the body of Christ we speak against God's Sacred Church of whom we are all a part. Recently, God spoke to Francis Chan on that exact same verse (1 Corinthians 3:17) to give us a loving warning to the body of Christ against division. Here is a recent statement Francis made in regards to people who divide and leave Church fellowship: "There is this terrifying verse in 1 Timothy where Paul talked about two men who rejected the faith. Paul said that he had handed them over to Satan, by which he meant that he’d put them outside of the church (1:20). Basically, these men were actively opposing the works of God, so rather than pretending everything was fine, Paul removed them from the safety and blessings of the fellowship of believers. He was hoping that the misery of being separated from the church would lead them to repent. Are you catching the weight of this? Paul equated removal from the church with being handed over to Satan! It is crazy to me that we live in a time when people are voluntarily doing this to themselves! No church has placed them outside of the fellowship; instead, they’ve handed themselves over to Satan!" What a sobering thought that those in our day in North America being critical of so much that is called Christian are doing to themselves what Paul the Apostle had to recommend Timothy to do to others as a last resort to have them repent of their pride and sins. We are living in a day where we are judging others and not ourselves. We are finding it easy to be critical of everything but our own sins we ourselves struggle with. Francis again shares on how God wants to send real unity to the body of Christ: "Real love, unity and blessing were supposed to be found in the church. Many are having a hard time finding that, so they’re setting off on their own. Jesus said that the world would see the supernatural unity and love we share in the church and believe in Him through that. But we’re not experiencing it. We’ve given up on it. We no longer believe it is possible." Perhaps we can start to change our minds and start looking towards others with seeing their good and not bad, speaking blessings over others and not curses. Remember we are fitted together in a temple of God with all saints of all ages. And Francis gives the example of someone taking a sledgehammer to this temple. What a fearful thing to do, of course we would depart from such an individual for fear of what God Himself would do to him. As the Scripture says, "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them" (Titus 3:10).
  18. The Bible is the Word of God but not God. the Holy Trinity is God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I am not trying to convince you of anything, I just wrote the post to encourage people to consider reading one of the disciples of the Apostle John himself and to learn from it, I believe it will help us not hinder.
  19. Ok thank you for a clarification on your beliefs and your comment. I would say we do not need to reverse the reformation but restore what we lost during it of the stronger connection to the historic church especially the first 400 years of christianity. Christianity did not start in AD 1500 ?. I trust that makes sense?
  20. brother, I am an evangelical, protestant believer, I think you might have missed the main intention of the post itself.
  21. "Irenaeus (died c. 202) quotes and cites 21 books that would end up as part of the New Testament, but does not use Philemon, Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 3 John and Jude.[4] By the early 3rd century Origen of Alexandria may have been using the same 27 books as in the modern New Testament, though there were still disputes over the canonicity of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation[5] (see also Antilegomena). Likewise by 200 the Muratorian fragment shows that there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to what is now the New Testament, which included four gospels and argued against objections to them.[6] Thus, while there was plenty of discussion in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the "major" writings were accepted by almost all Christian authorities by the middle of the second century.[7] The next two hundred years followed a similar process of continual discussion throughout the entire Church, and localized refinements of acceptance. This process was not yet complete at the time of the First Council of Nicaea in 325, though substantial progress had been made by then. Though a list was clearly necessary to fulfill Constantine's commission in 331 of fifty copies of the Bible for the Church at Constantinople, no concrete evidence exists to indicate that it was considered to be a formal canon. In the absence of a canonical list, the resolution of questions would normally have been directed through the see of Constantinople, in consultation with Bishop Eusebiusof Caesarea (who was given the commission), and perhaps other bishops who were available locally." this is from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon Of course local bodies of believers used and had various parts of what we call the canon of Scriptures today. Though there was not a universal acceptance till after the council of Nicea as you have alluded to. The council of Nicea was very important in the formation of the canon as it was a universal church council and not just a local synod gathering of bishops. I also meant to say 4th century, thank you for the correction. Perhaps I can state it differently, the Church gave us the canon of Scripture, the canon of scripture did not give us the Church. We cannot divorce the historical church (which includes the authority and tradition of the apostles) from the Scriptures themselves. But that is the evangelical tendency to over-emphasis the Bible to the point of it being even God (some actually teach this in fundamental circles). "If you are a Catholic, you need to just come right out and say it. Because everything you are hinting around at, early "fathers" or the church". I am an evangelical / protestant Christian. I believe we as evangelicals need to find deeper roots and meaning to our faith, ie what the history of the Church includes and gives us. So we are not alone to interpret the Bible we have the witness of the early Christians to help. Who would not want to accept such help, all the historic church did till after the reformation there was "in some" reformation circles the divorcing of the historic church and they went to private interpretation of Scripture and of course many different reformation groups came up with different interpretations of most main practices.
  22. I quoted the Message bible once in the Headcoverings book which helped make a point, it is a paraphrase of the Bible so can be helpful in a few cases to make things simple to see but also the Message bible makes a lot of confusing and wrong language also. I would never recommend it as a main bible to be read or studied.
  23. Yes, the Prophets and Apostles by the Holy Spirit, (the body of Christ) gave us the Scriptures in message. and then the compiling of the actual canon of Scripture was done in the 3rd century by the bishops of the Church. So the Bible did not come from the sky but through the people of God (the Church) and was verified by the leaders of the Church (the bishops) in the 3rd century. Does that make sense?
  24. Great Questions! Essentially we get our Bible from the Church not the Church from the Bible. Say that phrase 10 times fast. Essentially we NEED to understand the original thinking of the Apostles as there are many things that would not make sense otherwise. If for instance you were on a desert island 2000 years after christ and received a bible, you would not know much of the history names, etc. Just by using Scripture comparing with Scripture would not come near answering all questions of what, who and even the why. Of course the death, resurrection of Christ is clear and there is no arguments there. But for instance when it comes to the "Doctrine of the Nicolaitans" in Revelation of which God says he hates. (Revelation 2:6). We all of a sudden have no idea what it means. Some people use word etymology to find the root of the word, but that came to a wrong conclusion, I wrote a short few paragraph article to this Nicolaitan problem here. Essentially the early Church verified who and what it was. There are hundreds of other important aspects to our New Testament that are answered and clarified by hearing from the 2nd century Christians how they practiced the traditions of the Apostles and what the Apostles passed on to them. I personally use the NIV and NKJV as toward English Bible translations. Again, great questions and I hope what I shared at least makes you think abit towards why I believe its important to look into the writings of early church leaders.
  25. Yes of course we actually "have" the Bible it is the other things we are lacking with it.
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