Work in Progress

I see that you didn't get many bites with your bait. I am not a Calvinist, but in all fairness, you (nor the excerpt you quoted) did not fairly or accurately portray Calvinistic beliefs concerning sin, free will, and predestination. You should study a little more to show yourself approved. As I said, I am not a Calvinist. I was raised a solid Wesleyan/Armenianist. I didn't even know about Calvinism until working on my Theology Masters in Seminary. The Professor crudely portrayed Calvinistic salvation beliefs by pointing to the table and saying "you, you, you, you , and you and are predestined to salvation, the rest of you are going to hell and there is nothing you can do about it." My response was disbelief and I found myself responding out loud - "Who could believe something so ridiculous?!" The student immediately to my right said - "I would. And it isn't that ridiculous." John since became one of my very best friends. Though I still do not agree fully with TULIP, the more I study the Bible, the more I lean toward a Calvinistic view of salvation. The key to understanding Calvinism is to be able to differentiate God's foreknowledge (proginosko) from His predestination (prohoridzo). Just becuase He knows what decision you will make, does not mean that you don't have the free will to make that decision. I find that reconciling Free Will with God's foreknowledge is the crux to understanding Calvinism. To a Calvinist, it is not our actions that are predestined - only our destination. In fact, here is a rare case where the KJV actually has a better translation of the Greek. They use the word predestinationed. The noun predestined or predestinationed comes from the Greek pro (before) and horidzon (the place far in the distance that we are headed, our destination - English transliterates to horizon). Jonah was predestined to preach to Nineveh. He had full and complete free will to decide how he was going to get there, but he was getting there. He could go by boat or by fish. He freely made the decisions and he still ended up in Nineveh. That was the destination God had picked beforehand. If you seriously want to understand Calvinism in terms of predestination, election, foreknowledge, sin, and salvation, I'm sure that there are folks on this board who will be glad to assist. If you can't find any, I will give it a shot. But you won't get serious answers by challenging them. Remember what Paul wrote - "... speaking the truth in love ... " What an excellent post, Shlomo. Yes, the original post was most definitely "bait". I've long since learned to not take the bait, though it's the nature of message boards I suppose. I know what Holy Scripture teaches and no "bait" or inevitable fruitless and contentious argument will change it, or the fact that there are those who have made up their minds what Calvinism is and what Calvinist's believe, regardless of the facts. If I had a dollar for every time I was falsely accused of believing something from someone who "knows" what Calvinists believe, I'd be a rich woman, lol. Been there, done the witch hunts, and didn't even get a t-shirt, lol. I'm also convinced that the nature of message boards (constant arguing) goes against what we as Christians should be doing - which is sharing the Gospel, not arguing. Scripture forbids arguing fruitlessly. This particular theology is of a very deep nature and I've found that most people would rather just believe what they've been told rather than actually study it for themselves. I've become very discouraged in the past few years, realizing that the majority of Christians are "surface" Christians - "God is love" and that's about it. I'm saved, thank God. That's about the extent of their walk. Actual study of what we, as Christians believe and why we believe it is very rare it seems. What is so much more important is - do you (general "you" ) know our Savior, Christ? And that He died so that you can live? How much more important that is than theological debates. When we get to Glory, we will all know ultimate truth. Until then............it is so much more important to tell those who don't know our God all about Him. I would much rather just talk to people about God and His Son and what He has done for them.

Jackie, as was stated, the unpardonable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in any way. Please stop worrying about that. Well said. Jackie, you hit a rough patch and turned away when you lost your mother. It happens. (And I'm very, very sorry for your loss). But it's time to make things right with God. By the sound of your post, you already know that. He is waiting. And may He richly bless you.

Spherical, a "Christian" is one who has made a personal decision within himself that he alone is nothing and can accomplish nothing, and thus looks to his Savior for salvation. What he is being "saved" from is an eternity apart from God his creator because this life is indeed short and not the only life there is. There are no other "requirements", however there are a few fundamentals that a believer should adhere to such as the Virgin birth, the infallibility of Scripture, The Resurrection.... If a "Christian" denies any of those, I would doubt they understand what being a Christian is. Be sure not to confuse " being Christian" and "being A Christian". The first one simply means "gentile" - you aren't jewish, you believe in God so you "are christian". The second one is you have made a concsious decision to follow Christ and He is Lord of your life. Many people are deceived over that difference. May God richly bless you, Spherical.

And likewise, the atheists deserve respect as well. Provided they are not here to be contentious. We were all once lost. Thankfully, someone showed me respect while tactfully showing me the error of my ways. Anyone who showed me disdain and disrespect lost me from the first word. Christ died for the atheist as well.

Undone - The nature of the beast of message boards is they often end up as just fighting grounds and most of the time it's just one person trying to convince another when neither enters the discussion willing to listen. However, in real life, I've witnessed many conversions. The difference is - the person witnesses a life in service and are mentored. That's just my take on it. Of course, I'm sure people have turned to Christ on message boards, I just haven't seen much of it. In fact, I'm willing to bet that there are lurkers at this site (past and present) who have chosen salvation or at least have had the seed planted because of simpling reading this site.

Hi secondeve. My post was not aimed at you personally. I was just addressing the "intellectual honesty" remark. I've seen a lot of people with "intellect" (i.e - intelligent people) totally miss the simplicity of faith and salvation because they were too smart for it, lol. Intellect is wonderful and, IMHO, an obligation.........but it isn't needed for faith and is often a hindrance. Believe me, I'm not a Christian because it's "comfortable" or "enjoyable". I'm a Christian because for some reason God saw fit to call me even though there is nothing worthy in me to call........and did I go willingly? LOL! Sorry, but that makes me laugh out loud. No, I'm one of those that is "so smart" that I was too dumb to see the truth. I was so smart that surely I had all the answers, not God. I fought, I kicked, I screamed. But I'm the kind of person that must read, research, and can't accept blindly...........so I did..........and I am. And the praise belongs all and only to Him, no "intellect".

I don't know, Leonard. For me, "being honest with myself" means being willing to realize that there are powers greater than I - including a power that can deceive me because I'm not the be-all and end-all of everything. It means being willing to realize that "truth" does not lie with me nor can I make it want I want it to be. "Intellectual honesty" doesn't do me much good if I think my intellect comes from me. Only after being willing to recognize my natural state was I able to be honest with myself............which led to a natural conclusion that I have a creator and am in need of a relationship with Him. Just my thoughts.

Oh man, that's just wrong. Why on earth should the responsibility be on those who have standards and want to uphold them? Why shouldn't the responsibility be on those who push this garbage? Just turn it off? That doesn't fly. How do you "just turn off" the commercials that always have the worst part of the show (otherwise known, sadly, as the "funniest" part to reel people in) that pop up while you are watching something else? Why should people have to worry if they've left their 13 year old for a half hour or so who might stumble upon it and have no supervision to discern what they are watching? Why should I have to get up and do anything? No, the responsibility lies with the offending party. Putting the responsibility on the innocent party is a tactic of satan IMO.

Hi Needs, and welcome to Worthy. You'll find as many friends here as you've got room for. What's on your mind?

Indeed, EDUCATED. It is what we do when we get new information; we modify and update our worldview. It gives us wonderful freedom to live fulfilled lives. Yes, and then there's the new definition from those who are attempting to destroy everything tradionally American and create a new America. That's the definition I was speaking of.

Sorry, I don't agree. I know the same thing now about homosexuality that I've known all along. I have not been ahem "enlightened" by society. Or, what is that word they use? Educated.

I don't know what trib I am, and I tend to agree with Worm concerning the books. And I don't get why he is being ganged up on for speaking his opinion, strong though it may be. Nothing wrong with a strong opinion, as long as it is not vulgar or cruel in some way. It seems some went right on the attack as soon as he voiced it. Can we not have respect for everyone's opinion? And I really don't understand what "knowing someone" has to do with it. The people right here on this board don't "know each other" but have formed judgements as to their beliefs and theology just be reading their posts. JMO, as always.

No, I don't share your calling. But I wanted to encourage you to get in touch with some mission organizations who can start those doors opening. Your church could give you some names. I just googled "missions" + "Israel" and came up with different organizations. Perhaps a short term mission trip would show you what it's about and help you decide if it's what you would like to do. God bless.