carlos123

I appreciate the further input but I have decided to stop my re-involvement in this forum after a number of years being absent. I had a hope that things might have changed in all that time but things have gone from the way they were then...bad...to worse. In this thread I have been accused of all kinds of ridiculous nonsense. It's like I have stepped into a den of vipers intent on biting at my heels no matter what I say. Admittedly my views may need some correction and I thank whoever of you that may be that brought a true word of correction to me. I appreciate that. What I say doesn't apply to everyone either. Some on this forum are Christians that I find it beneficial to discuss things with and to learn from. But overall...this forum has gone downhill and badly in that it is by no means a safe place to discuss things anymore. The atmosphere here is anything but Christian. Religious maybe but Christian? I don't think so. Anyway I wish you all well. May the Lord do with you and this forum whatever he might wish to do with it. Let the further accusations and bombardment of ridiculous nonsense continue. Be my guest. I won't be around to hear any of it as I will unsubscribe from this thread and will blacklist any further emails from this forum advising me of further responses. I will however still be available by PM if anyone wishes to say anything to me that way. Take care. Carlos

Here is another interesting quote from Calvin...pay special attention to the parts I have bolded...I have added my own commentary in parantheses. I have also added paragraph separations to make the quote easier to read. From http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.iv.html Exaltation of church leadership above other members of the body exudes out of this quote throughout. Almost as if the ministers are standing between God and man and dispensing God's grace to us all. In other words instead of all the gifts of the Spirit operating through individuals standing side by side as equals before God our common Father...though having different roles in the church, Calvin sees ministers as having a profound and significantly more important (even a superior) role in the life of the church than other members of a local body. It's a subtle but significant difference from the biblical perspective I think. Carlos

Here is an interesting quote regarding one of Calvin's views on the role of ministers... This quote, which comes from his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Chapter 3 - see http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.iv.html is indicative of what I said earlier. That Calvin had an overly exaggerated view of the importance of church leaders. Here he says that the Lord "dispenses and distributes" his gifts to the Church by the ministers! Not the Holy Spirit as God wills but rather the ministers! As if the flow of gifts to the church comes through the ministers!! Carlos

Wikipedia says... Quoted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastor Of course Wikipedia is certainly not authoritative but still...I thought that statement was interesting. Would love to know what they base that on. If true...that points to there being a problem in the use of that word in place of the more general "shepherd" in that we as Christians no longer have priests that mediate between us and God. Carlos

It strikes me as very odd that they started using the word Pastor, a Latin word, when a perfectly acceptable word (i.e. shepherd) had been in use for many years and in every English translation before the Geneva Bible came out (I am referring to the use of this word in Ephesians 4:11 and in Jeremiah). WHY did they make that change? It's the first time that the word "Pastor" made it into our English bibles. Any ideas? Carlos

As I understand it Shiloh there is no difference. The role of a shepherd (a la Ephesians 4:11) is to shepherd the sheep. The role of a pastor (a la Ephesians 4:11) is also to shepherd the sheep. These two words are obviously different words but they define the same underlying Greek word in Ephesians 4:11. What is involved in shepherding / pastoring? Well...to do what a shepherd would do for the sheep but where it is applied to people figuratively. Shepherds / pastors lead the sheep to water and green pastures. Shepherds / pastors protect the sheep from wolves and other predators. Shepherds / pastors search out lost sheep and bring them back to the flock. Shepherds / pastors help maintain peace between members of the flock. Shepherds / pastors exert discipline over the sheep when any of them get out of line. I think those are the essential tasks of this role in the church. Carlos

Hi Shiloh, At the risk of straying even further from what I originally wanted to discuss in this thread...though it is somewhat relevant I think. Hmm...I appreciate you bringing this up Shiloh. It's making me think...which is not at all a bad thing . I've never heard anyone say that the gift is separate and a totally different thing than the man who has the gift. That's a new one for me. To me the gift and the man are as one where the two cannot be separated. Let me think about that some. Carlos

By your own words...THE PASTOR. The ONE man not multiple men. As for your wondering...well...that is pure conjecture. I could wonder as well all kinds of things about you too Ayin Jade but what would be the point of such pointless wondering other than to impugn your character and cast you in a bad light? Such wondering is pointless and doesn't serve to further fruitful discussion. Still...if you must know...I think most Pastors I have ever been under would have a far better appreciation of my attitude and my willingness to submit to their authority while in churches that they pastor than you have of me. Fight with Pastors? Vendetta against Pastors? Such innuendos and fleshly implications tell me that you have completely, and I mean completely, missed the thrust of what I have been saying in this thread. It's like you haven't even read what I have said at all such that you have completely misread my heart. I have been saying that the modern day role of Pastor is unbiblical. Not in line with the biblical model of what oversight is supposed to be about. And that I have been interested in discussing why the Geneva Bible tossed out the use of "shepherds" in Ephesians 4:11 and took up "pastors" instead as a possible moment in time when a corruption of the role of oversight worked it's way into the text. A real concern and a real issue that has nothing to do with any so-called desire to fight with Pastors, to not be in submission, and other nonsense. Sigh... Carlos

You say that Ephesians 4:11 is not talking about pastor as a gift in the same sense that teaching is a gift as mentioned in Romans 12. Yet I have to ask why not? While the verses in Romans 12 do not mention shepherds (or pastors if you will) as is mentioned in Ephesians 4:11, the gifts of prophecy and teaching ARE mentioned (along with others). The Greek words which are rendered "prophecy" and "teaching" in Romans 12:6-8 are G4394 and G1321 respectively. In Ephesians 4:11 the Greek words rendered "prophets" and "teachers" are G4396 and G1320 respectively. Prophets are one's who have the gift of prophecy and prophesy. Teachers are one's who have the gift of teaching and teach. 1 Corinthians 12 makes things even clearer. We see Paul mentioning some of the same gifts he mentions in Ephesians 4:11 in 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 and this time he even uses the same exact Greek words! 1 Corinthians 12 is talking about GIFTS...NOT POSITIONS. In context Ephesians is clearly talking about GIFTS NOT POSITIONS. An apostle is one who has the gift of apostleship. A prophet is one who has the gift of prophecy. An evangelist is one who has the gift of evangelism. A pastor is one who has the gift of pastoring (i.e. shepherding). A teacher is one who has the gift of teaching. There is no support whatever in any of the above verses for the idea that any of these terms describe a POSITION of church government. They describe people who are gifted. The gifts is what the Lord gave the church or one could righly also say that the Lord gave people with these gifts to the church as well. But saying that the Lord gives these particular type of persons to the church does not imply that these people are only able to operate within a POSITION. Nowhere is there any support for the idea that these gifts are given to only ONE person within a local body. They are given according to the need of the body and as the Lord wills. In the New Testament church there were many who were gifted as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and/or teachers. No where is there a single example of a church that only had ONE of each within the body where it could only have ONE and never more. For that matter there is no example of a church that only had ONE person at the top of a hirearchy with the gift of shepherding in operation (i.e. in line with the modern idea of a Head Pastor). Maybe I am misunderstanding what you meant to say Shiloh and went overboard in my response (I have been known to do that in the past). If that is the case please correct my overly wordy response and bring me back to the point of your post if you would be so kind as to do that for me. Carlos

If you think nothing good can come out of discussing this issue I guess I am somewhat perplexed as to why you are participating in this thread Shiloh.If you don't like what I wanted to discuss or think it can serve no purpose by all means you are free to not participate in this discussion at all. I mean why in the world would you participate in a discussion you view as utterly useless? Why did you ask for discussion when you clearly don't want discussion. An answer was given and you don't like the answer. The answer was repeated and now you decide they shouldn't be involved in the discussion. You are making an aweful lot of assumptions Another_Poster. "you clearly don't want discussion" WRONG. "you don't like the answer." WRONG. "you decide they shouldn't be involved in the the discussion." WRONG. I wish you wouldn't assume and instead that you would ask me whether this or that is true instead. I DO want discussion which means a give and take, a challenge to my thinking and that of others, etc. Whether I personally like an answer or not has absolutely nothing to do with anything. What kind of discussion would it be if I insisted on everyone giving me only answers that I liked? That's ridiculous. As for me deciding that Shiloh shouldn't be involved in this discussion why did I say what I did to him Another_Poster (not to mention that it is not within my power on this forum to stop anyone from participating in a thread)? It was because he said "nothing good is served by trying to manufacture a problem that doesn't exist.". That left me perplexed as to why he was involved in this discussion at all which led me to suggest that it would be better for him not to be involved in this discussion since...he did not apparently see much value to it. It would further profitable discussion if you would not assume things about my motives or desires Another_Poster. Carlos

Hi Ezra, Thanks for participating in this discussion. I'm tired of wrestling with the forum software here in that it tends to mess up my quotes so I am just going to quote the old fashioned way from now on. @Ezra said "The words *pastor* and *shepherd* are interchangeable, so the word itself is not really a big issue." Though I agree that the words "pastor" and "shepherd" are interchangeable in a strictly biblical sense, they are just two words even if one is Latin and the other English that pertains to a GIFT of shepherding in Ephesians 4:11, I do not agree that it is not a big issue which word we use to refer to those in the role of oversight in churches. As a matter of practical reality these words are not interchangeable. If I go into almost any church in the U.S. and ask "Who are your shepherds (plural)?" many folks won't have much of a clue as to what in the world I am asking. Worse...some might immediately conclude that I am a trouble maker, a weirdo, or just plain wacky. Now if I go into the same church and ask "Who is your Pastor (singular)?". No problem at all. Everyone will immediately understand who I am asking about. Most understand the word "Pastor" as used in Ephesians 4:11 to refer to a POSITION of church leadership that one is ordained to NOT a gift. Why is that a problem? First and foremost the Lord inspired Paul to write what he did and to say something specific by what he wrote. Since Paul was referring to a GIFT when he used the Greek word poimēn (Strong's G4166) in Ephesians 4:11 and NOT a POSITION, to end up thinking that Paul was speaking of a POSITION rather than a GIFT is to misinterpret the Word at best and to obscure and twist what the Lord meant to say through Paul at worst. Leading to a faulty practice of church respecting the role of oversight. Faulty in what sense? When a GIFT is looked upon as a POSITION and not a GIFT then the gift gets tied to the position such that anyone having the gift of shepherding is considered out of line to practice that gift when they do not have the position. We diminish the role of that gift in the life of the church when we limit it's operation to a position. Worse we elevate those having a POSITION above those who do not have said position instead of looking upon them as being no less and no more than members of the body like any other member of the body but with a different gift and role. Equating a GIFT with a POSITION is a reflection of our tendency as fallen creatures to exalt one man above another. The scriptural reality is that the GIFT of pastoring should and can be exercised, by anyone having that gift, whether the gifted person has the POSITION of being an Elder or not. In other words GIFTS are not tied to a POSITION. Most Pastors today will frown upon if not outright deny anyone, who is not a duly recognized and ordained Pastor, the opportunity to practice the gift of shepherding since the only one in modern church practice who is seen fit to operate in that gift are recognized and ordained Pastors. I guess what I am saying Ezra is that as a matter of practical reality there IS a difference in meaning between these two words such that they are not interchangeable. The difference in meaning as a matter of practical reality is significant. The GIFT of shepherding is NOT seen to be equivalent to the POSITION of Pastor as one might think they would be IF these two words meant the same thing where one could be used as readily to refer to the same thing as the other. Now one might well wonder if I am making a mountain out of a molehill by making an issue over which word we use to refer to church overseers to which I would say this. A GIFT is something that is to be exercised for the well being of the church whether one has a POSITION or not. If we view the word "Pastors" in Ephesians 4:11 to be referring to a POSITION, when in fact it refers to a GIFT, we then limit the exercise of that gift to being expressed only within and through a POSITION. Any such limitation limits the Holy Spirit's work in and through members of the body that have the gift of shepherding. To use the word "Pastors" for those having oversight over churches, when said word has come to be understood by all as referring to a POSITION rather than a GIFT, is to perpetuate the biblically mistaken idea that the gift of shepherding can only be exercised by those who have a pastoral POSITION. Furthermore the whole notion of a modern day Pastor is that of one man oversight over a church. I refer to what is generally known as the Head Pastor. Just because many churches have a Pastor of this and a Pastor of that doesn't mean that they are practicing the biblical model of a multiplicity of overseers having the same authority over churches as seen in the New Testament. The GIFT of pastoring and it's proper operation within the body has been obscured and buried under the modern day understanding of the positional role of Pastor. My desire in starting this thread was to get help (through a discussion or through any source material others might have known about that I did not) as to how this shift (from seeing the GIFT of pastoring become a POSITION in the understanding of Christians) came about. I think the Geneva Bible starting to use the word "Pastor" in place of "shepherd" may have been a pivotal moment in time when the corruption of the role of oversight as the Lord intended got incorporated into our bibles through a change from the use of the word "shepherds" to that of "Pastor" in Ephesians 4:11. Or at least it would seem so. That was my interest in discussing this. Carlos

An excellent question Shiloh and one that I will regretfully have to answer tomorrow as I don't think I will have time to get on my laptop tonight. I appreciate your desire that I explain myself better - which I think I need to do. Carlos

Ahh...a nice short quote that is easy to work with even under my Android. I am dumbfounded by your response Ayin Jade. The very foundations of our modern day church practices come from the Reformation (though in truth even before that but still much of it is from the Reformation). If our modern practices have strayed from what the Lord meant the church to be then going back to understand the roots of any corruption from the biblical model of church practice is extremely beneficial to revealing what the nature of that corruption is. And in helping us better understand how best to counter that corruption and even expose it through the Word and through history. Your response implies that going to the root of what causes a behavior in one's adult life by exposing how any such behavior began in childhood is unimportant. It implies that it is unimportant or worthless to understand a nation's history in order to better understand why a nation is what it is today. The church is what it is today BECAUSE of things that happened in the past. In so far as the church may be off in its practice today it is incredibly beneficial to understand what caused its practice to go astray in the past. How you can say that having a desire to understand the change from shepherd to pastor in our Bible's and how that might help us to ubderstand how the present day pastoral role came to be is like straining at gnats is beyond me. It utterly perplexes ne how it is that you obviously do not see the value to this discussion. Carlos.

I appreciate your attempt to show me why this discussion won't go anywhere in your opinion Shiloh. I completely disagree and will leave it at that with respect to interacting with you on this thread unless you have insight to share on WHY the Geneva Bible started using the word "Pastor" in place of "shepherds". Right, wrong, useless, or profitable that IS the topic of this thread. Carlos

@Omegaman All good questions Omegaman. I hope to respond more fully when I get in front of my laptop instead of fighting to chicken peck a response out through this tiny editing box on my Android screen. You rightly point out some assumptions on my part. That is one reason I am interested in a discussion of this issue. So that I can better distinguish between reasonable historical fact and unsupported assumptions on my part. I will post some quotes from John Calvin later to support my view (which I don't see as assumption) that he had an overly exalted view of church leadership. Carlos